Voodooman

That's not a bad idea. Heck, I already live in Miami. I have friends in the hotel business. Getting a conference hall around that time shouldn't be too difficult. It might be alot of fun. I don't know, it all depends on how many people are actually interested in it.

Miguel

huh?WTF?

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nothing to see here move along now.

engaged

shit, get stuff going, im prolly down for that.

Deliguy

Cool! I'm down.

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Dar

I'm definitely down for it too.

Concept

voodooman - I PM'd you my contact information.

Shawn Collins

I did link directly to your post, too.

Just because you have free speech doesn't mean you're immune from criticism.

Your suggestion that affiliates should generate junk leads by using porn as an incentive. I have a problem with knowingly generating bad leads.

If you're in Miami, I'll be glad to grab a drink.

__________________
Shawn Collins

Next Affiliate Summit - Austin: May 15-16, 2012 // NYC: August 12-14, 2012

stojan

I got a feeling this thing is going to blow up in the blogosphere, AS stocks will go Enron .

DaveEMG

LOL jesus guys. That's the solution right there - ignore the conference that helps legitimize the industry. </sarcasm>

Look, Shawn can rile some feathers, sure, but the fact of the matter is that people like BYA aren't interested in being treated like professionals because he's not a professional. I've met several BH'ers that are actually pretty upstanding guys - they just choose to exploit opportunities that exist because nobody has fixed them yet.

I don't fault BH'ers for trying to get away with stuff. But let's not pretend like Shawn did anything a store owner wouldn't have done had he found an employee stealing merchandise. Whether it was appropriate for the school to take action is something else (personally, I don't know why one has anything to do with the other, but that's already a done deal).

Look, there are people that are in this business because it's our way of life, and then there are others that float in for a few months, cause some havoc, and then disappear in to the lucrative cheeseburger assembly industry.

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mkrongel

Huh? English please

My post was to solidify our position since our name came up in the blog post that Shawn talked about. I did not go to the blog, but cheating advertisers is not a good thing to do and is not tolerated by us. Just like affiliates dont want to be cheated.

Blastyourass

[quote=mkrongel;153369]Huh? English please

OK, I'll get serious for once.

What I'm saying is that if I am an affiliate of Copeac and I follow your rules for your offers. But on the side I have a blog where people are allowed to post whatever they want about making fast money legit or not and they are not affiliate offers of any king being promoted. If Copeac is mentioned ever it is in a good light and always will.

Is Copeac going to suspend that affiliate for what he does in his free time with a blog that is not associated with that offer?

If so then I will delete the post and rethink this.

mkrongel

What you say doesn't matter its what you do. If you are telling people to do something that is against our TOS then it will be an issue for those who do it. If youre one of those who are doing it, then youll eventually get terminated. Advertisers are on the look out for schemes like the one mention on that blog. Since so many people have tried to scam advertisers they constantly monitor stuff and are very quick to catch fraud.

Blastyourass

OK, thank you.

revbones

No, the store owner would have a) fired the employee (which the rat did), then b) called the cops (if it warranted it or the offense was illegal) or c) called the kids parents. The store owner would NOT have compiled "evidence" to present to the kid's college. And the college would have been pretty much required to take some action since most have a stated honor code as was already mentioned. Shawn knew what he was doing, and he was doing it maliciously. He wasn't trying to right a wrong or get justice, he was out to hurt that kid, possibly because his ego got bruised. That was over the top and it's people like that who will always, always be there like an ant at a picnic, ready to rat you out or fuck shit up so that they can feel smug. Shawn might be a nice guy, but shit like that just pisses me off. He had tons more options, instead he choose the most fucked up route.

quicktoshoot

Sounds like a plan...

ASE is out, banquet hall miami is in.

Dar

Welcome to wickedfire... You'll do just fine around these parts.

Jon

Damn.. now I have to get involved.. damn you all!

I have to defend Shawn here, not because he's a friend, but because you have to see it from HIS perspective.

If you were the owner of a company that was paying say $5 a lead, and you got 10,000 leads from an incentive campaign, only to find out that of the 10k leads ($50k spend) almost all of them were fraud because some kid was doing it to pay for his college tuition, wouldn't you be pissed the hell off and feel cheated? I know I would have gone way farther than Shawn did. I would have not only gotten him tossed from school, but I would have gone after him financially, and done lots of super fucked up things right back to him, especially if the kid had the nerve to threaten me by trying to be a tough guy on his computer. But that's just me.

A lot of people would just handle this in a manner where they just cancel the kid and not pay him, and close the account to be done with it. Shawn taught him a valuable life lesson here.. if you are going to try to screw someone, you must take into account that there is a very good chance you yourself will be screwed back, tenfold. That's the game we play, and the risks people need to realize when they do shady or gray hat style marketing.

When I was an email spammer back in the 90's, we always knew the risks of our campaigns. We knew that there was a good chance we would spend money to make some, and that we could lose all of it if we were caught spamming. Although we were rarely caught doing it, it would happen every now and then, and we'd lose out on five to low six figures sometimes. But instead of bitching about it, we accepted it. And we were damn lucky we didn't have someone like Shawn as the affiliate manager in charge, because then we'd all be screwed just a bit more.

Overall, you can't blame Shawn for this stuff. Yes, he got a kid kicked out of college. Big woop. The kid deserved it. But I look at it from two different perspectives..

1- From a Gray hat perspective - He got what he deserved because he was too cocky and didn't cover his tracks correctly to get away with it. Which means he either didn't know what he was doing, and didn't take the precautions he should have, or he was just an idiot and thought he could game the system without weighing out the consequences. So yes, it was justified and he deserved it. The more newbies that get caught and knocked off, the better it is for the big boys who know what they are doing.

2- From an AM perspective - He cheated, he needs to get cancelled and all funds revoked BECAUSE it was premeditated. It's not like he did something and got a few bad leads, or did something and caught shit for it but didn't know about it. He knew full well what he was doing and looked at it from a "I'm going to game the system" perspective. Instead of just taking the loss, which he should have, because he got caught, he went on to threaten Shawn and tried picking a fight.

Overall, I don't care how you put it, the kid tried fucking someone and got fucked right back. That's the game we play guys, you should always remember that and take that into consideration. If you're going to be shady, expect a chance of getting fucked right back. There are plenty of precautions to take to avoid it, but in the end, you're always going to have that risk, because going this route means you are thinking outside the box, but at the same time your risk factor skyrockets.

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Blastyourass

fix my link man or there will be big trouble man. That is my fiancee's information that you are displaying and you know what the fuck Im talking about Shawn.

fuck with me dude, cool, fuck with my family.....................................then we're going to have some major issues

springer

I'll bet they don't go running off like little girls yelling, "I'm gonna tell your mommy!" do they?

See, like I said, there's a HUGE difference between getting caught for something and being punsihed for it and being ratted out and being UNJUSTLY punished.

That's the part that put a burr under my saddle... when Shawn made the analogy about the time he caught someone and got the kid suspended from school for it. What the kid was doing had absolutely nothing to do with his education... until he was no longer getting an education because of what Shawn did.

If I choose to do something untoward and get caught, I'll take the punishment, as long as it's appropriate. Do something that effects my life, my family or in this case, education... none of which are related to what I was doing wrong, to punish me and I'll fuck you up for life.

If the kid was e-mailing and otherwise harassing Shawn, there were plenty of ways to deal with that. Even if it ultimately resulted in having the kids school supplied internet access suspended for the e-mail harrassment. But NOT going so far as to have him suspended from school. Like someone else said, that was just plain mean.

I'm thinking someone must have gotten picked on a lot as a youngster and it stunted the growth of his manly bits.

BYA, calm down. If your "friend" did something wrong tell him to not ever do it again and life will go on. The affiliate police will not be banging on his door in the middle of the night. He should, however, reformat his hard drive and wipe down his computer and keyboard, just in case.

__________________
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Blastyourass

[quote=Jon;153390]Damn.. now I have to get involved.. damn you all!

I have to defend Shawn here, not because he's a friend, but because you have to see it from HIS perspective.





OK great do you defend that he is displaying my personal information on a text link in his blog that displays my fiancee's address phone number and everything? Just becasue I he's upset at a post that someone wrote?

Voodooman

Jon, that's real nice of you to defend Shawn and all. But we are men and not fucking kids. This horseshit of "tattle tailing" to fuck up someone's future is kid's stuff and totally unprofessional.

Again, if Shawn wanted to go after him because of fraud and other crimes then he should have either gone to the police or sue the kid. Not make this a personal vendetta to try to get the kid booted from college. What is this the 4th grade?

In my book, Shawn stooped just as low as the kid. Then he goes on and brags about it? People need to grow up and stop watching gangsta movies. Let’s be men and professionals.

nachoninja

Time to get my sig in here

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0352

Jon that's awesome. Probably the best post I've seen. HA!

Shawn Collins

So a semester off from school is worse than a criminal record?

I told my story in ClickZ to let the other scammers know I wasn't playing. Plenty of them were trying to game me. Guess what, after the story got out, the attempted fraud went down significantly.

Incidentally, it's the "gangstas" that consider it a code of honor to turn a blind eye to crime.

__________________
Shawn Collins

Next Affiliate Summit - Austin: May 15-16, 2012 // NYC: August 12-14, 2012

barman

"With so much drama in da L-B-C, it's kinda hard bein' Snoop D-O-double G"




Jesus christ wickedfire is out of control lately. I leave to the gym for an hour and we got a 74 post thread. Ima stay out of this one.

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Voodooman

What criminal record? That wasn't for you to decide. Who knows the kid could have been slapped on the wrist and walked.

But you purposely went to his school to boot him. Yes, it was for only a semester. But it could have been for good.

Again, last time I checked it was the our justice system that handled crimes and not school administrators.

What I'm seeing is no honor. And it's usually the "gangstas" with no honor who become the rats.

Blastyourass

your still linking to the whois with personal info of my lady.......plz fix asap

Shawn Collins

Hit refresh - I changed it when you first asked.

__________________
Shawn Collins

Next Affiliate Summit - Austin: May 15-16, 2012 // NYC: August 12-14, 2012

DaveEMG

HA HA HA this entertains.

__________________
"If you ain't first you're last..." ... "Oh hell, Son, I was high that day. That doesn't make any sense at all, you can be second, third, fourth... hell you can even be fifth."

SeoDave

I'm surprised that I'm the first to note that Shawn can't spell "numbskull". It's kinda sick how he went after the college kid personally, and it's a douchebag move to post BYA's WhoIS as a link, but I think it's easy to see why Shawn did what he did. Somehow though, I have the feeling Shawn wouldn't have a problem justifying this either: YouTube - Mafia Hit Short Film

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Blastyourass

see shawn and jon thats how computer illiterate I am..just like my spelling...

springer

Yes, it sure could be. There are plenty of high level execs who, when they were 17, 18, 19 years old did stupid things and got a criminal record for it.

On the other hand, there are probably several times as many guys my age that wear paper hats at their jobs because some self-rightous asshole fucked up their lives early on and they got booted out of school.

A criminal record, believe it or not, is easier to deal with later than trying to explain to someone whose an alumni benefactor and a "ring knocker" why you got booted out of school.

The "code of honor" you mention goes back to WAY before the "gangstas." I'm 50 years old ya little puke and it predates me by centuries! Piss on you again for referring to ANY of us as "gangstas!"

It's not about any code of honor, it's all about being a stand-up guy.

The kid fucked you and, like Jon said, you fucked him back bigger. My "code of honor" would have required me to fuck you back again. How long ago was all this? Maybe the kid isn't done fucking you back. I'd take a quick glance over my shoulder once in a while if I were you.

__________________
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Alcoholics go to meetings!

Shawn Collins

numskull - Definitions from Dictionary.com

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Shawn Collins

Next Affiliate Summit - Austin: May 15-16, 2012 // NYC: August 12-14, 2012

Shawn Collins

I was responding to an earlier post - I didn't bring up gangstas.

2001

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Shawn Collins

Next Affiliate Summit - Austin: May 15-16, 2012 // NYC: August 12-14, 2012

smaxor

All the other bullshit aside the bottom line is

IF THE ADVERTISER DOESN'T MAKE MONEY, DON'T DO IT.....

If torrent traffic converts for the advertiser then by all means spam the fuck out of it. If you expect to get paid and leave the advertiser or network high and dry find something else to do.

All the rest of this is total bs. Shawn I believe it was wrong of you to get the kid in trouble. I'd have frozen his account and probably not paid him. But at the same time why would you let him run traffic to your offer for that period of time if it wasn't converting on your end. I know you're a bright guy and HAVE to believe you have scripts that send you msgs when things are out of the ordinary. Fraud detection is the number 1 job of Affiliate Manager/Network Manger.

The one Good thing Shawn said while he was looking down upon everyone talking like he was GOD was that you should talk to your affiliate managers and find out if what you're doing is working for the advertiser as well as yourself. If it is do more of it, I'm the last person to talk about ethical SEO as the token to your left would tell you. But that's cause I can't stand POMPUS ASS WEBMASTERS that think they're better then everyone else.

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SeoDave

Damn, I feel dumb.

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Dar

I KNOW SENDMAIL TECHIQUE MY STYLE IS THE BEST!

springer

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lerchmo

In this post you demonstrate your ability to not sound like an annoying douche, please continue along this line from now on, and my perception of you as a fucking annoying person might... change.


Blogger and 5 Star Afilliate Programs Bashing WF members

Blastyourass

understood.

SleepyStarling

...wtf? That has to be THE MOST ASSHAT STATMENT I've heard all week, INCLUDING everything BYA and SC have said.

First of all, don't inject politics into a non-political debate unless it's in sarcasm.

Second of all, you have it backwards. The left-wing supports PRIVACY, even if it means letting some crimes go unsolved. The RIGHT WING supports authoritarianism (aka the 'morals police': injecting church into state, judging what kind of sexuality is immoral, violating communications laws to put citizens under surveillance in order to 'stop terrorism,' spying on your neighbors, 'If you're not guilty then you have nothing to hide,' etc).

Whatever side you're on, please know what the fuck you're talking about.

Thank you.

SleepyStarling

I went back and re-read that. Wow. Do you wear a Stop Snitchin' T-shirt and have a "My Kid Beat Up Your Honors Kid" bumper sticker on your truck, too?

Don't get me wrong--my philosophy is all about CYA. Distributing content that should be free anyway is hardly an excuse to wage a vengeful campaign against some poor kid who's just finished puberty. Collins, being an affiliate marketer yourself, it's a bit hypocritical to stand on a soapbox when the entire market is about mental manipulation. That's what advertising IS. Whitehat/blackhat comparisons are too narrow-minded. Read Eli's blog.

It's fucking pointless to go into a longwinded rant about which businesses benefit from torrents and which don't, so I'll just say that I support P2P even though I'm technically an artist. But that doesn't mean bullying kids in school because they had morals and you didn't is cool. Attitude check, anyone?

Shawn Collins

This was back in early 2001 - I didn't have anything but my eyes to try and detect fraud.

__________________
Shawn Collins

Next Affiliate Summit - Austin: May 15-16, 2012 // NYC: August 12-14, 2012

am1r

Actually, that's not exactly true. There is an authoritarian right and there is an authoritarian left. For example, we have cultural conservatives on the Right who, as you point out, want to legislate morality and then, on the Left, we have an authoritarian impulse as well with people who want to centrally plan economies, control what people can say (under the auspices of hate speech laws), and limit freedom of contract (through racial discrimination laws) and freedom of assembly (through laws overly supportive of forced union membership).

At the same time, there are also libertarians, classical liberals and anarcho-capitalists who exist on the Right such as the awesome Dr Ron Paul or the Cato Institute or economists like David Friedman. These people stand more diametrically opposed to the things you describe than most of the people on the Left. Therefore, reducing these things to Left versus Right is a bit overly simplistic.

SleepyStarling

I second that. Don't screw with anyone's education.

It's fucking hard enough for the middle class to make it through all four years with ONE kid. I had to drop out of Harvard because my parents are at least a hundred grand in debt and they haven't even started paying for my brother. My friends were all rich enough to pay in full or poor enough to get a free ride, or they lived in Chicago and didn't need to own a car to go everywhere, which saves you a shitload of money when you have a family that has to go to school & shop for food.

I didn't know about affiliate marketing at that time, so I worked my ass off working 20 hours a week, and now I don't even have a degree I worked for and sacrificed for my whole damn life. My bro has to go to a state school because most private schools cost close to $50k a year now, and we'll still be in debt. In 1999, it was around $32k a year (tell me how that even makes sense!).

You don't know how much a degree means until you've tried every avenue open to you and no one will pay you more than $15/hour without one and your health insurance runs out.

So you see, I take it very fucking personally when a turd messes up someone else's education.

BrianL

wow...I can't believe so many people are so much against what Shawn did to that kid. I agree with what Jon said. You steal from me, you mess something of mine up, you threaten me, I'm going to go out of my way to make your life hell. Freezing money that the guy didn't really have much invested into isn't going to teach him a lesson. Trying to go the legal/criminal route with the guy would be too much of a pain in the ass for Shawn. If the guy was screwing Shawn over and using any school resources to do it (most likely a possibility) the guy sure as hell should have been booted from school. It's not a matter of being "4th grade" or whatever. It's that you have to hit someone where it hurts for them to learn their lesson. That's part of life.

SleepyStarling

I leave out libertarians on purpose because they often support varying views and don't always define themselves as being towards one end of the spectrum or the other.

I understand what you're saying and I don't disagree. I took issue with what Springer said because it was an-out-of-the-blue, completely ignorant statement.

SleepyStarling

I see two problems with that statement. One, hitting him where it hurts would be his wallet, not his academic record. I don't mind vengeance or revenge so much in this business because it's a matter of survival. That said, I only believe in taking things to the extreme if the lessong taught is useful -- in other words, as long as the punishment fits the crime. Two, if you are kicked out of school, there are few second chances in which to make amends. Black marks on your record will follow you around for the rest of your life. You can't get a decently paying job; you can't acquire new skills in specialized fields if there's a standard track to take, and you're stuck in a downward spiral of dead-end jobs and accumulating debt. This can happen to you without being kicked out of school, too, but that's reserved for the really, really unlucky people.

So yes, kicking someone out of school for unrelated criminal or civil matters is too harsh.

springer

Well thank you for straightening me out on that matter. I wear my asshat with pride! I see we have icons for black hats and white hats, so I'll have to speak with someone about an ass hat icon.

In regards to your later post asking about my t-shirts and bumper stickers, I have neither. What I DO have are MY beliefs, MY morals and MY opinions... none of which I expect anyone else to adhere to blindly. It's your choice to agree or disagree.

You have chosen to disagree with some points I made and I'm fine with that. You have every right to do so and I will stand next to you to defend that right. All I ask in return is the right to do likewise, even if I have to wear an asshat while doing it.

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trigatch4

I still love lamp, but I'm compelled to add my legitimate opinion:

Do I think what Shawn did was wrong? Yes.
Did he use bad judgement? Yes.
Would I have acted differently? Yes.
Can I completely blame him? No.

People on WickedFire complain about $100 landing pages, $70 for 1000 Directory Submissions or $600 custom vBulletin skins. You bitch about blowing through $50 of PPC advertising without getting a single conversion. Knowing how frustrating it can be to lose that money, how would you feel if you lost $50,000? Wouldn't you be a pissed as all mighty hell? Do you think you might overreact? Do you think deep down, you might want some revenge, even if your not directly telling yourself, "I'm going to do this for revenge?"

Call it an overreaction... fine. But it's hard to overreact about losing $50,000. Looking back on it (after this thread), maybe Shawn can now see how it was a little bit messed up. Maybe not, I don't know. But, with a bitter, hate riddled backlash you're not likely to get anything but him trying to defend himself. And I know that's not the response you're looking for.

I'm sure everyone here has made some type of monumental mistake in their lives that they regret... but defended it vehemently for one reason or another. Let's just put this past us, and hopefully Shawn realizes that Karma does exist... for next time... because it's a great feeling when you get fucked for doing something you shouldn't have done and the other party is gracious enough to give you a second chance. We all need breaks like that sometime.

What goes around does indeed come around... as cliche as it is... well... I'm sure you can figure out the moral.

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