Deliguy

you seem to be getting insulted by every response that identifies the real problem he has.
If he can't manage his budget to be under 10k/month then another 10k/month won't help him one bit. In fact it'd probably throw him into even more debt.
And I'm not sure if he's married or not but does your mom have a job?

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grazie

drc (didn't read comments)

However....

With his dentistry skills and your marketing skills you help him by....

buying a data list of new dentist school graduates and also dentists' who have just started a practice and setting up direct mail campaigns with the intention of selling your counseling services and/or seminars on obtaining clients via online marketing strategies....$1,500 per person.

Of course it's a lot more complicated than that, but I'm sure you could figure it out.

TFLNetwork

What the hell kind of mortgage does he have on a $300k house? If he was making $10k/month... I would expect MINIMALLY a 25-30% down payment. When i hear people putting <10% down payment on a house I just lol... then they get into problems like ITT.

DreamMachine

See that's the problem - Uber never had any 'marketing skills' and now that his last mobile offer has died, he's had to sell his house and move back with his parents.

There's info we're not being told here. If there is such a massive demand as the guy a couple of posts ago says (no bookings for the next 2 months...) then why did he have to sell his existing dental practice? Why couldn't Uber have stepped in with his Uber Marketing Skills and saved the old business the first time? Why will it be different this time around?

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zingo

+1 for the gospel

SUP3RNOVA

I think I might talk to him and work out the costs of setting up a new practice and completely renting out everything. Promotion is one thing he didn't really do too much of at his old practice and when he sold it I was just starting to get into IM.

If he started one up I could definitely work on some Google campaigns for him and promote things like after-hours, free exam/consultation, etc.




As I've said I'm aware that he mismanages his money and I've talked to him about downsizing his life, I've mentioned this. "lul your dad can't manage his money lul" repeatedly isn't serving any purpose in this thread.

My mom has gotten a couple part-time seasonal jobs but most of her time is spent driving my sisters and brother around to school, music, sporting events, and running the house/taking care of our old dogs.

I haven't run a mobile offer in 4 years. I don't live with my parents.

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eliquid

Some of you guys are fucking idiots bashing Paul.

Im not taking up for him, but the guy just wants some ideas/advice and you come in here bashing his dad. Everyone's situation is different. Matter of fact I know a lot of you guys ballin with some serious cash in the bank but live like fucking bums.. hey thats your life, but not all of us want to live in basements and wear our clothes for 4 days straight and drive a beat up Pinto. Some of us actually enjoy our money and if the guy was doing this for 30 years straight, he had better money skills then your ass did just cause you got rich off acai the last 3 years.

Some of you guys must not own nice things or have older kids/family you take care of, but when you have a $300k home, a couple med to high end cars ( lets just say a mild BMW or Mercedes, hell even a new SUV from Ford ), you have to remember its not just the payment, but the insurance and taxes that eat away at your income.

Hell, properties taxes alone on a 300k home can be 5k a year in some places if not more. Also, taxes on nicer cars eat away income as well and we havent even touched on insurance yet on those things, let alone insurance on his practice he had all the while trying to put kids through college, buy groceries, host and do birthdays for his kids/grandkids, anniverseries, unexpected issues that come up, and just maybe taking a small vacation a year.

$10k a month is bullshit for someone that leads even a "mildly" moderate lifestyle as a professional that had their own business.

I don't have advice for you Paul, but all the others on this thread bashing your dad can eat a fucking dick, and I seriously mean it.

Those without kids, a real business that requires e&o/malpractice insurance, or that still live in apartments with 2 of your college roomates, dont even need to comment.

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TFLNetwork

^ Are you serious man? My dad makes around the same amount as OPs, lives in a $500k+ house (mortgage payments are around $900 because of the downpayment). He is currently putting my 2 siblings through college, my mom doesn't work, they have 3 cars (paid cash... 2006+ Chevy's) and there are 0 issues. In fact, he is currently putting money into upgrading the house even more (long term investment) + a lot more in mutual funds, ETFs and retirement. And, based on OPs previous posts where he lives, i could guarantee taxes and insurance over here is close to double. Insurance for his practice? Are you serious? That isn't a personal expense (necessarily).

I could name NUMEROUS family making HALF what the OPs dad makes that are living more than perfect in my area.

potentialeight

Bolded for emphasis

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SUP3RNOVA

Cool...THAT'S YOUR GODDAMN SITUATION. Different people have different situations. My family has been extremely frugal with money for the past 3 years since my dad had to sell his practice, but his cost of living is high (especially living in 2 locations now). I've also said there's CC debt he's been paying off, but I really don't have to explain myself because it's completely fucking irrelevant to this thread.


And thanks eliquid, it just comes down to the fact that most people here are just arrogant and out to make themselves feel better.

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SUP3RNOVA

cool story

His practice went down the tubes because his "loyal" clients all started coming in for treatment and skipping out on the bill. He spent more time in small claims court than he did his office, so he sold the practice. Shitty area.

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TFLNetwork

The bottom line is, since 2008, this same situation happened to MILLIONS of people. Specifically, to those who lived out of their means.

kingfish

lol yeah this is a bit ridiculous

I make 10k a month and I can't even get by can someone tell Obama we need a living wage #whitepeopleproblems

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PatriciaWeber

My uncle, who is a clinical therapist just went through the same thing last year. Our family thought about putting up a blog for him, etc. However, the older generation doesn't understand the internet like us. It would have been very frusterating for him. With more than 40 years experience in the field, the best plan of action was for him to partner for four other therapists and re-start their practice. They rented a space and started building their clientele again. He's off to a good start. More importantly, he's in his element. I wish your dad the best of luck!

Patricia

bb_wolfe

Boo-Hoo-ber Affiliate,

Fuck your situation then. You were indeed asking for advice on how to help your dad, but in your own emo-passive-aggressive way you were looking for people here to say "Oh, Paul, it's ok, just help him.".

I hope you do go fucking broke helping him. Nothing is as class-less as yelling "I TOLD YOU SO" at the top of your lungs, but for you, I'll make an exception.

Helping parents out of financial distress, no matter what the method, is fucking death to your sanity and self-image. I've seen this over and over again in the past 13 years and the constant never changes: Those who mismanage will usually mismanage forever.

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cheshire

As someone who's been in this situation my only advice is to not give him any money. If he can't make it on $10k/mo he's doing it all wrong. The best thing you can do is get him a good bankruptcy attorney. If he's 60 now he might just be able to dig his way out by 70. If he's not willing to sell his assets (house!) and dump his other expenses there is nothing you can do to help him, he'll bleed you dry too. I understand your need to help your dad, but he'll just end up sucking you dry, then dying and you'll be left with all your debt and his debt and the cycle starts over. You're fucked too. Good luck bros.

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johnmatrix

Aww you're real hard done by mate!

Median income here is $67,000
Median shitty house price is $575,000
Our interest rates are 7.8%
For the average person that's weekly repayments of ~$850 out of a $1300 income, leaving dick-all for the bills, food, car etc after tax.
Cars cost 2-3x more than in the US
Not to mention our taxes are much higher than yours.

The average Australian manages to get by, you have it easy as fuck in comparison. Our healthcare is free though so it all balances out right?!

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potentialeight

Sorry, I see how what I said is ambiguous now and that's not what I was getting at.

Instead, the emphasis on "had" was to point out that changes have to be made since he no longer has the practice.

Best of luck.

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eliquid

Whats your point, your not American and yours is clearly a different situation. Until you can compare apples to apples, then you have no point.

Point is for 30 years he was doing well. Why should he be "cheap" or conservative if after 10 years into his practice he is still doing well. Its not like Acai monies where people thought they were baller making a half a mill in 1 year and buying lavish things, only to have their 2nd year fuck them up with $0 monies. This guy had a proven record and decided to take care of himself and family. He by no means went outside his lifestyle if he is in a $300k home unless he has a hooker and blow problem, which I doubt.

This guy was making good money, did so for 30 years, and now finally because of the overall economy is struggling. To say this guy should have managed better shows what idiots a lot of people on this board are. This guy was banking when most of you all were still some sperm in your daddy's ball sack.

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johnmatrix

Banking implies that the money is actually going into some kind of savings account... obviously this wasn't the situation.

His dads cup has too many holes in it and has for the past 30 years, explained by this educational video:




What was the plan upon retirement? move into a caravan after 40 years of dentistry?

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TFLNetwork

Eliquid... I'm honestly shocked to see how far up your ass your head is. OPs dad is still making 2.5x the average salary of a US HOUSEHOLD by himself. How you don't see a problem is beyond me.

SUP3RNOVA

Yeah, ok? I've already said in this thread that the economic condition is what fucked him over, I didn't say he was the only one. I was just asking if anybody had ideas they didn't mind Shooting The Shit about.

...what?

No...I was looking for advice. I wanted to come up with something to e-mail my dad (ideas), and wondered if maybe anybody at WF would have anything to contribute. As in typing out 1-2 sentences with an idea from past experience or something.

I don't rely on Wickedfire to satisfy my emotional needs believe it or not. Real life is for that.

It must feel good to be that bitter. not

I wouldn't go insane and what would happen to my self-image? OH SHIT, LOOK, IT'S THAT KID WHO'S HELPING HIS DAD OUT OF OF A PROBLEM. I WANNA KILL THAT ASSHOLE.

I'm sorry you don't care for your family as much as I do, but I don't want my dad to have a heart attack from stress and die. I'm not going to post anything specific about his intelligence, but he did extremely well in medical school and has always been smart. Worst case scenario is I help get him out, he gets started again and slowly mismanages so that in 30 years he'll be near-broke again. At that point he'll be almost 90 and probably dead.

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eliquid

Why in the world do you people insist on comparing him to the any average family anywhere?

This guy hasnt lived an average life, and probably has better things/more things/more expenses because of those things then the average family anywhere would dream of having.

Comparing is situation to average anything is what is making your head up so far up YOUR ass. Just because he makes XX more then average family living in middle america doesnt mean this guy cant manage his money. The simple fact he makes more then most americans also means he pays more then his fair share in taxes then the average american which already takes enough money from the pot. He probably also pays more insurance as well then the average american. Neither of those plays into "bad money management".

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SUP3RNOVA

I don't think he's disputing the fact that my dad has mismanaged his money over the years. The point is it came very slowly, so it's only now that he's "learning his lesson". He's a pretty smart person, I think he'll be more careful the next time around.

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tencentpiece

You asked for advice on how to help your dad, people are giving you advice but it seems like you're not really interested in hearing it.

Your dad needs to sit down with the rest of your family and explain that the life they are currently living is no longer tenable. To me it sounds like your family is living above their means, rather than your father.

In terms of what you can do to help your father earn extra cash? It really depends on where his individual skillset lies - is he just a general dentist or does he specialize in something? Is he photogenic? It's hard for people to give advice without actually knowing anything about the person themselves.

Sit down and do a simple SWOT analysis, that should hopefully give you some ideas and suggestions on what to do.

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SUP3RNOVA

That's flat out false. I have listened to and responded to all actual advice. "lmao your dad can't manage shit" isn't advice.

I understand that but that's not the advice I was asking for. I asked for ideas on how my dad could use his skills to earn that much money back at home and then drop the apartment he's living in. He burns $100's every month driving home every weekend.

He's a general dentist, and I think he can do whitening (which is good to advertise). I'd say the best part about is skillset is his touch. He can take a person afraid of needles and give them a couple novocain shots without them feeling it. His old practice used to be called Gentle Dentistry.

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eliquid

I dispute the fact he makes 2.5x more then average family...

Make $10k a month to only have to pay back in 1.4k in fed taxes compared to making $5k a month and paying in $444 a month in fed taxes.

Who is missing out on a bigger chunk here? Add in misc state and community taxes, school, fire, etc and the guy making 10k a month is only bringing home 7k a month compared to the guy making 5k a month bringing home 4k. For sure not 2.5x more!

Lets not forget to add in insurances for someone thats a dentist, like malpractice and business and prob umbrella. Clearly the playing field is now about even and no where near "mismanagement" of money.

Im not saying the guy maybe shouldn't have put something away for a rainy day, but this wasnt someone that got lucky winning the lottery or ran a couple acai berry campaigns and thought he could buy the moon.

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tencentpiece

10k was/is the take home pay, considering he doesn't own his own practice anymore then he won't/shouldn't be liable for the insurance expenses.

Your tax figures assume no deductions at all.

It seems crazy to me that somebody could be making 100k+ a year for ~30 years and still not own their own 300k home.

Even somebody earning 48k after tax (median/mean figure for US, apparently) should easily be able to afford their own home after 30 years. No wonder your country is so fucked.

If his skills are interpersonal, I'd stop focusing on the whole dentist aspect and instead focus on doctor patient relationships. In Australia we have some programs that are run by universities to help doctors with doctor patient relationships (how to broach subjects such as confidentially while being sensitive to out clauses such as self harm/harm to others and making the patients feel "safe") - a lot of the stuff is practice - in fact my local high school paired up with the university of Melbourne and we had our drama class act our certain roles and then the doctors in training would practice their med speak. At the end of it the "actors" would give the doctors advice on how they could improve.

I know the doctors in training also did a ton of theory on this type of shit, especially the foreign exchange students that were hoping to get permanent residency.

Might be a niche to look into .

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eliquid

1. I didnt see where Uber stated that 10k was take home pay.

2. Yes my tax calculations are based on 3 Dependants/deductions as well.

3. Many professionals have to carry insurance on themselves even though they work for someone else. Many professions are like this, especially in sales. I wouldnt be surprised if he is working as a dentist for another company if he was asked to carry his own liable.

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Moxie

If you just wanted ideas on how someone with his skills could make more money than you could have just asked for that. It appeared that you were looking for help with his overall financial situation.

Americans in general do have problems with budgeting and are also reluctant to make lifestyle changes when needed. Someone isn't necessarily being a jerk by pointing this out.

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scottspfd82

Educate him on fixing it.

I "get" that the "economy" has fucked over people. But I don't care what business you're in, or even if you're just an employee seeking a job, you can deal with the economy. Businesses can bank in a bad economy with the right marketing.

I know people that have been "job hunting" for two years now. I could go get a general labor job within days that pays $15+ an hour if I had to.

My point is that too many people blame the economy without taking a hard look at themselves. And I'm not talking specifically about your Dad either.

So educate him on making money...

1. Money management is the big issue (apparently). Cut the fat. Downsize. Eliminate all unnecessary bills. Don't buy shit on credit.

2. Get him hip on marketing. Spent too much times in small claims court? Send out letters/call the people that owe him. Tell them they have 7 days to settle before they'll be served and have their credit ruined. In the future, offer a discount for patients who pay upfront.

Most dentists (well, businesses) are horrible at marketing. My dentist does fine as far as I can tell. They never send me any mail, no promotions, no email, no followup whatsoever. If he's like most business owners he has a goldmine sitting in his customer list that he's completely ignoring.

I think I read "hick town" somewhere in there. If I were a localized high ticket service provider, I wouldn't be anywhere near a hick town. Go somewhere with prospects who have money live.

You say "people don't go to the dentist in this economy" (paraphrasing), no offense, but bullshit, yes they do. That's why I have to wait a month for my appointments. Some people don't, but a lot of people still do.

Best advice I can give you is your Dad needs to get hip to managing money and running a business.

Get him this:
And I don't know you man, I assume you're pretty young, and probably have made most of your money running facebook to CPA offers. I could be wrong, but you probably don't know a lot about direct marketing beyond that.

Get your Dad into a real education on marketing a business. Dan Kennedy's stuff comes to mind.

There are probably guys who specialize in dental marketing, I'm sure some are worth looking into.

Get him out of being an employee, get a new practice opened up, market it right, he'll bank more money and if he can learn to manage it he can dig himself out.

None of this is meant to be offensive dude. It's just the problems I'm seeing from what you've posted.

Best of luck.

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SUP3RNOVA

Not offensive at all, as you actually attempted to diagnose the problem and offer suggestions for a solution. I appreciate that.


It did? from original post...

EDIT: I can see where "just something he could do" could be interpreted as what he can do about his personal finances/expenses, but I was just speaking of ideas he can do as far as making additional income goes.

Regardless, almost every reaction that called out his financial misjudgments served to be completely useless.

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IMHopeful

A dentist in my area has found the perfect way to get around the shitty economy: He built his reputation for 30+ years, then when the economy went into a slump he lowered his prices for non-insured customers (I.e. root canal for insured people = $1000, whereas non-insured customers can get taken care of for less than half that.)

Professionals have a hard time lowering themselves to less profits, but in the case of the dentist I mentioned above; he's expanding now and trying to get an appointment inside of two months is next to impossible (even with 2 dental surgeons, 10+ hygienists and office staff.) -- less profit and more volume has made this guy the most successful dentist for miles.

* I agree with Scott about people using the economy as a crutch. I've never been without work, but I'm also not afraid to swallow my pride now and again. There's always work for those that want it.

JakeStratham

Yep. I agree. That's exactly why I suggested this.

Then, Paul's dad can start pumping out marketing materials for other dentists. Brochures, emails, etc. Sell a marketing system to go along with the membership site.

At Paul: take a look at this, this, and this. Lots of ideas there.

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megatabbers

My gf is a dentist and does a bit of marketing on the side. Last year we helped one of her professors get patients for his new practice w/ Adwords. Campaign is doing alright. You can do some serious damage with a well thought out/executed online campaign.

He also does local advertising in the paper (i.e. official dentist of town's youth sports team, gives away free mouthguards to new patients, etc...)

Also gives free teeth whitening for life to new patients which costs virtually nothing but draws them in, converts them into long-term patients.

>> I'd say the best part about is skillset is his touch. He can take a person afraid of needles and give them a couple novocain shots without them feeling it. His old practice used to be called Gentle Dentistry.

This is a great USP. People are more afraid of the dentist than death. If you can bang that USP into their heads, build a whole new practice around it, and use some online/offline marketing strategies from what you've learned over the past four years, you (both) should do well.

I'm all for helping parents out. They brought us into this world, raised us, etc... it's the least we can do.

However, I also agree with a lot of other posters that he needs to learn how to manage money better. It's not how much you make, but how much you keep. It doesn't matter if you're making 10K/month and spending 12K or making 100K and spending 120K. You're still going to be broke in both scenarios.

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miketpowell

He doesn't need to make more money - he needs to learn how to budget. WF is not the forum for this.

I'd suggest checking out Fatwallet.com finance section - have him post up the details of his budget and let them rip it to shreds. If you listen they can seriously help - but it will be tough love.

It's really the single most helpful thing he can do to have more money - finding and cutting what is draining the money more then it should.

Good luck!

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Rexibit

The economy in my area tanked as well, 12-15% unemployment. Both my parents have lost their jobs and don't have insurance currently since it was tied to my dad, but they and my sister do get teeth cleanings done.

Know why? Because the dentist said that he'd squeeze them in and work with them on the price, so don't miss their scheduled appointments. He's currently the busiest dentest around because he is working with struggling customers that've been with him for awhile. The other dentist in the city is a snob and won't lower his prices or work with customers, so he is off playing golf while their dentist is fitting in the other's customers.

Tough times either make or break someone's business. If you're willing to work with your customers and do a "per-customer" negotiation on pricing, they'll give you some money and give you a ton of positive referrals out of the deal because they feel special. When the economy swings back around, they will also be your most loyal advocates.

It's much better to lose some money on your current prices and keep your appointments booked. Vacant rooms are a much worse opportunity cost loss than filled rooms at a discounted rate.

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bb_wolfe

Ok, fair enough. Enough of me bashing the situation.

This one is for you and you only Paul... Please write the next line down and have it tattoo'd on your inner eyelids..

"Better him than me."

The more you become codependent to his problems, the more you suffer. Two years ago I was personally where you are now, I imagine a lot of the common problems between dads are nearly identical. I hired him on, taught him how to manage already successful campaigns. I took him in for 16 months, rent-free. I bought a truck for him. I paid his loans each month, for months on end, to the tune of 2K+ a month.

Know where that got me? He had no motivation to change his behaviors whatsoever. He managed a 50mm+ construction implement, he made ridiculous money. He didn't manage it AT ALL. Then, when shit hit the fan, he came to me, thinking he was a changed person I helped. Thankfully I only have to learn that lesson once.

I had a wife and 2 little boys, I was paying cash for her gradschool, I was paying 100% more to live in my new town than my old. If I didn't have internet marketing to support me, I'd have been fucked, and so would have he been. Instead of me reinvesting into my business, I paid his shit, and some of my mothers. It totally fucked me. Guys I started in the biz with are now living in 400K homes and have stock accounts in the hundreds of thousands. I chose to help family and at the time it felt right, it fucked me hard. Since March 2010, when I booted his ass out, I've done nothing but make money and it's been the best feeling ever.

I know how you feel, dude, trust me.

Looking for solutions isn't going to turn out well for you personally, no matter how good it feels at the time, you're just polishing the brass on the Titanic, it's all going down baby.

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wickedDUDE

I think your dad just needs help managing his money.

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FromUndaCheese

The bottom line is that your dad needs more cash now not six months from now. He needs to find a way to leverage his current knowledge and skillset, and branch out to other cities/states.

I would have him do what Joe Polish did for Carpet Cleaners. Teach dentists how to grow their practice. Hard part is he can't walk the walk.

Fuck it, your dad is screwed.

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EZ-Kash

Ironic Todays groupon... hxxp://www.groupon.com/deals/dynamic-dental-partners too bad he doesn't have a practice anymore. Does he have a non-compete?

pocketrockets

Definitely need to focus on your father's skill-set of 30+ yrs which is being a dentist (not selling dentistry related promotional products, consulting, etc) re-open another practice in a busier area with a better demo (higher income) and less competition.

Not sure if you have seen this presentation Jeremy did about his success with booking a local dentist office using only FB advertising but it's worth a watch.

Start at 31:55 min

mediastar100

Not interested in any of the bs debates raging through this thread but I am kind of working through the same situation atm myself. So heres what I suggest.

Your dad has a wealth of experience in the dentistry field. Use That.

Built a local directory.

Get him to sell spaces on it to local dentists.

You will spend money advertising it. Its his job to get clients.

Clients pay a monthly fee of $x.

You spend half that monthly fee (or other %) on advertising.

He builds relationships and the business leaving you hands off.

You pay him a salary from the business that he developes.

Im doing this right now and it works. All the people that say fuck him, screw him, he'll drag you down - ok Wolfe - you have some real reasons and thats fair enough.

The others - read what you just typed and think about it. Some cold shit.

metalshark

Tell him:

Sell shit on ebay.

Downgrade your car.

Downgrade your house.

Profit??

kingfish

That's why he's a dentist








sorry I couldn't resist

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(O_o)

out of curiosity, what kind of vehicle does your dad drive?

also as mentioned above, how come your dads home isnt paid off yet in 30+ years?? My parents houses have been paid off for the past 10 years. (they are 60).

seems like tons of money issues in your family

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Sonny Forelli

at 60 it's too late to change people's minds about things- I've seen this before - the 'oh but my law practice was good for 30 years doing nothing besides going to a local rotary meeting and drinking beers! lulz!"

Fuck that.


Have the hard conversation with him - WHY did your practices do well? ALL referall/word of mouth business? OK good- at least people liked them, this is a good start.

Did they buy ANY marketing over the years? Track ANYTHING? Local leadgen efforts are like shooting fish in a fucking barrel if done right.

My neighbor's construction business was depleted after 10 booming years. He was going to spend $10k on some email and print nonsense.

Instead he spent $600 on adwords that I ran (as a personal favor) driven to a great looking LP and closed 2 jobs - one for $130k and the other for $45k.

He then shut the campaign off b/c the big bid had him do 2 more stores (commercial construction) and the smaller job also referred clients. Coupled with his other biz picking back up w/ money being lent again and he's booming again.

Total cost? $650 + a lot of pride swallowing.

Swallow the pride first- then make some shit happen. At a bare minimum generate more profitable business for him at his 'hours away' practice (whitening, etc) to show him it can be done and convince him to take the jump to leave and open up another practice.

Magic Hat

/thread

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Brandon

I know this is done on the Orthodontics side, but some guys in the field turn to consulting. They contact existing practices (in this case dental offices), and see if the current owner is planning on selling within the next five years or so, and if so, for a fee they will go to the dental school and get a soon to be graduating student lined up with that doc to buy the practice. Because the student isn't going to have any money when they graduate, the way it usually works is that they start working in the office with the current owner for a few years and then the doc retires and the new owner pays out $x amount per year to the previous owner for x number of years. Win, win, win.

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SUP3RNOVA

Thanks to all that posted a valid idea/piece of advice. I sent the responses to my dad as well as a few of my own, hopefully he'll man up and make a move.

The most I'd contribute cash wise is just some local ppc marketing, $1-2k to see what kind of leads I can generate. I'd ask for a cut of the profit if there was one too. I can make him a leadgen website myself and host it.

All office/equipment costs would be on him, and whatever loans he can take out for them.

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am I allowed to link to my forum here?