avatar33

This is something that I simply do not understand. How is it that both the US & Canadian governments don't see the opportunity here?

Flying is such a hassle in this continent and so expensive compared to Europe and Asia yet we buy flight tickets all the time because it's our ONLY option. If there was a Bullet train linking major cities (think NYC to Washington DC, to Atlanta, to Houston, etc...) I'm pretty sure a lot of people would prefer taking the train. Amirite? Especially now that people are pissed off by TSA agents, all the tightened security measures, delays and bullshit that make a simple local 1 hour flight actually take you 4 hours.

I took the Amtrak train from Toronto to New York (roughly 450 miles) => a 15 hour bumpy, noisy and uncomfortable ride! Looking through the window I was honestly thinking that I could bike faster than this. On a 200mph bullet train it would take a little more than 2 hours!

In the meantime, China & Europe are still improving their system & building new tracks...

China tests its high-speed rail link from Beijing to Shanghai | World news | guardian.co.uk

China High Speed Rail Growing, European Line Topped by Solar Panels

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Kiopa_Matt

Have you ever driven in Europe? Literally every 5 - 10 minutes you hit a new town / village. In Canada, you can drive for 4 - 6 hours straight without hitting a single town.

In other words (at least in Canada), we're behind in high speed rail due to low population density, massive land area, and cost. Why lay 800kms of high-speed rail tracks, when it's only going to pass through maybe a million people if you're lucky?

potentialeight

Because trains don't have the threat of crashing into buildings.

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Kiopa_Matt

PS. And for areas with dense population, we do have good rail service, as shown:

Rage9

Indeed. Also we'd have to hire A LOT more TSA agents to do enhanced patdowns for train rides.

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avatar33

I'm not saying we should build high speed tracks covering all the territory, at least not for Canada! But think of connecting major cities together, like Toronto-Montreal... and Calgary-Vancouver...

who do you think is building high speed trains for Europe and China? Bombardier, a Canadian company!

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papajohn56

We have the #1 freight rail system in the world, actually.

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Rusky

Because we have Cars, Trucks, and Big Ass SUVs.

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Jizzlobber

You just need to shorten up your world.

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BNR34

the thing that slows down development in a lot of countries is different types of lines used, plus the maintenence of a line designed for high speed trains would be somewhat more costly than a "normal" one?

pctechwright

we need to get out of the plane thing - the TSA is bullshit - they told me " ok im going to pat you down, my hand will go all the way up till it stops" ( talking about patting down my legs)


Well the thing is - when 'it stops' it stops at my balls. rails are still laid so might as well put them to work right? I live in Hawaii where they are just starting on a rail system - i dont think we need it, its ONE fucking island. But i mean if Hawaii small ass island has a rail why cant Canada big cities and USA big cities?

avatar33

Let's take NYC to Washington DC for example... (226 miles)

Plane:
On paper: 1 hour 15 minutes
In reality: 4 hours (with the checking in of luggage, TSA crap, delays, weather conditions)
Price: if you're lucky, $100 each way...

Bullet Train (200mph):
On paper: about 1 hour 15 minutes too!
In reality: let's say 2.5 hours maximum (PLUS generally trains drop you downtown, not in the ourskirts, plus you get more legroom, you can walk around and there is a restaurant + bar inside the train!)
Price: I don't know, but it would definitely be cheaper than flying.

FUCK, what's more to say? Wouldn't you take the train every time if it was like this?

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lukep

inb4 anti-obama-ists come in and take this thread as an assault to everything they stand for...

070707

Madrid to Barcelona
Sept 9th
Flight time: 1 hour 10 mins.
Ticket (one way) $85 US Dollars.

Madrid to Barcelona on the AVE (Spain's 218 MPH train)
Sept 9th
Train Time: 2 Hours and 28 Minutes
Ticket (one way) $105 US Dollars

That being said, the only time people I know take the AVE is when the weather is bad and the flight might be cancelled.

I know my father flies into Tokyo all the time and takes a bullet train to the north of Japan rather than fly again... to each there own. I did Chicago to NY and it took 20 hours on a slow ass train. I'd rather wish I died.

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papajohn56

high speed rail will be cost effective in the USA when oil hits $200. it also still won't be time effective for cross country trips. remember all these European countries are like, the size of Wisconsin.

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lukep

I've been through the Barcelona airport... Admittedly before 9/11, and there was a shitload of line-waiting and x-raying your bags and the whole works...

I can only imagine now they've got add-on baggage fees, full body scanners and a good 2-hour wait making the experience a good 3-4 hours of hell, complete with radiation exposure and meatless, bread-based foods dominant throughout the airport!

I'd take the AVE over that flight anyday. The extra $20 is a bargain!

JMan1234

226 miles? Why would anyone fly such a short distance? If it takes 4hrs time in total, that's an average of 56mph...can you not average at least that speed in a car in this area of the country (never been so I honestly don't know how the traffic is between).

Eldarion

Teh govt.'s be pushin for amtrak tsa last I heard.

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avatar33

Interesting article: China Says Its High-Speed Trains Are More Advanced Than Japan

China really wants to be considered the king of bullet trains.

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Uncle Tony

Not true. If you want an air conditioned cabin or even a sleeper berth, it's the same price as a plane ticket. Sometimes more. At least in India.

I prefer trains to aircraft because I don't want to die in a plane crash. I've been in some smaller planes and they really made me more aware of the very real risk. Including here:

No matter what the statistics are, the odds of surviving a plane crash are definitely lower than a train or car crash. You can't "brake" during a plane crash, you are inside a missile and death is almost certain. On land the velocities are typically lower.

inb4 someone points out that traveling by foot or horseback is even safer

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Moxie

China now spends about $100 billion a year on creating high speed rail. The US has started to spend around $3 billion a year.

Different countries have different priorities, lol

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Moxie

Those are actually both much more dangerous than air or train travel.

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Insomniac

I don't think I've ever wasted 2 1/2 hours getting through security. Platinum or first class, will get you through security in ten minutes average. Just gotta make sure you checkin over thirty minutes before your flight, so you don't have to collect your ticket from the counter.

samgeneric

Because it's 2011. Railroads were awesome in 1850. If you want railroads, you can elect train obsessed liberals into office, and you will eventually get them. And your taxes will go up.

erifdekciw

well the way i look at it is our countries are huge. and laying all the tracks would be expensive.

but i think the real problem would be... who the hell would use it? They have a high speed rail system that goes to like 4 cities in my state and the only people who use it are people who have jobs in one of those cities but live in a different city and its already having financial issues after being open for like 3 years.

I really don't see a point in high speed rail at the moment. In the future yea it would be nice, but right now almost every american family has a car and the highway system is good enough.

I don't know why anyone would use it except maybe for vacations or business trips. Then the question of affordability comes in when you actually get to your destination you have no car so you either pay for cabs to get everywhere or rent out a car anyway.

Other countries invest into them because of huge population density in such small land areas. for example japan, lots of people live outside tokyo and take the railways to get into the city for work. I don't think there is a lot of people in the US or Canada in that situation, Id be guessing thats where most of the revenue would come from. In the end they probably wouldnt be used very much and they would end up driving the prices up to cover losses and it would end up costing just as much to fly. like amtrak.

REIMktg

In the USA the people have spoken and they prefer planes and cars. In China... do the people get to speak?

Different countries do have different priorities.

As for the military, if not US who?

Moxie

Who for what? Empire building? Acting as world police?

Would the US military still get an average of $2,500 from each person, per year, if the people were able to show what they really prefer via donation instead of taxation?

The military budget has gone from $300 billion in 2000 to over $700 billion. Many supposedly frugal conservatives ignore that, while instead they have plenty of time to get all butthurt over a few billion for railroads, NASA or a few million for public radio.

Public Poll Shows Bipartisan Support for Public Rail Funding | INFRASTRUCTURIST

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roclafamilia

Amtrak - Routes - Northeast - Acela Express

^^^isn't that what you're talking about?

Uncle Tony

Bullshit. I said plane crash vs train crash or car crash, not air travel vs other forms of travel (those statistics are irrelevant because you are concerned with the odds of surviving a mishap, not the occurrence of the mishap itself). Air crashes are the most dangerous types of vehicular crashes.

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Moxie

^ Sitting at home and having your house hit by a nuclear missile would be an event much more likely to kill a person than the event of a person getting in a train crash. One of these events is much more likely to happen than the other though.

If the odds of getting in a train crash magically went up to 99%, you still wouldn't consider the odds for the occurrence of the mishap?


Riding in a plane or a train are both relatively safe compared to riding in a car.

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REIMktg

What empire? You want Iraq? We don't.

What do you think 9/11 cost the economy? Maybe a Trillion?

The Cost of September 11

I do not know this source, it was #1 in Google. But even Wikipedia, who I hate giving links to, says that it cost NY alone over $95 billion.

I know government spending is inefficient, but there still is a multiplier effect, of the military spending into the economy.



Yeah, its called 2 wars and a bunch of other crap. Do not worry, someday there will be another Bill Clinton to slash the budget and declare a "peace dividend"

Why do you not show the taxpayers how they are subsidizing a rail system that no one uses? Good old publicly owned Amtrak. Who hoo! I can fly Southwest all over the place for $39. THe last time I went through the airport TSA just let me go through, shoes and all - Ontario International

If NPR were not a propaganda machine for the left they would not have to worry. But you see, the left, cannot make it in a market system. They need Big Govt.

Uncle Tony

And what are the percentages of planes or trains that crash? Very similar I assume, so the likelihood of surviving the crash is more important.

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Moxie

Bases in 130 countries. Call it whatever you want.

Statements from Osama and research from US intelligence says that the US was choose as a target because of the US presence in other nations.

It's the same with spending on rail or whatever else.

That was actually started under Bush I. This article is from 1990 :

Cheney Peace Dividend | Cold War's 'Peace Dividend' Is in Jeopardy, Cheney Warns - Los Angeles Times

The poll was about high speed rail. Maybe they are saying they would use it if it was faster.


A red herring is an argument, given in response to another argument, which does not address the original issue.

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Moxie

Oh, and I forgot to add that about 85% of NPR's funding comes from the "market system."

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justo_tx

Round peg, meet your hole:

Why do conservatives hate trains so much? - By David Weigel - Slate Magazine

hellblazer

Everyone knows China's real military budget is 3-4 times what they report, which would put it at around 400-500 billion. Factor in the fact that the majority of US$ are going to current wars, and the fact that the Chinese Communists are actively developing weapons to defeat the US, and we're actually losing that battle.

But by all means, let's prattle on about "high-speed rail", one of Comrade Obama's dreams. Imagine how fast you could send the "extremists" to the re-education camps in those things!

Of course, that's why they're terrified of losing federal funding. Without it, all of their little local stations would collapse because of their massive subsidies. It's amazing how you're consistently full of inaccurate, misleading information. It's almost like you're paid to do it.

mgtarheels

Ah, yes.

WF - home of the armchair politicians and expert economists

Moxie

HELLBLAZER


Did you hear your hero Michele Bachmann wants to ban porn? You know, like it is in China?

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Douglife

It's been a dream of Floridians for years, and they keep trying to get it passed, and it's nixed every time.

Ideally, a HS train from Tampa to Orlando, or Miami to Jacksonville would be unbelievably beneficial for Florida.

CaptainRon

The US has an excellent freight rail system and most intra-city transit in the US involves distances beyond the break point where air is more economic than rail.

The Europeans can keep their boondoggle employment program rail systems and high freight costs. Shit the SNCF in France has more freight car maintenance workers than freight cars.

hellblazer

You're beginning to sound more desperate. Tell your boss Soros to give you a bigger check, cause this really can't be worth it.

Moxie

George Soros? The billionaire who criticizes China and who is good friends with your other hero, Donald Trump?

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(O_o)

sad depressing and pathetic :C

We should be spending that $ on Education and Science.

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lukep

What?!? But then how would the defense manufacture and security sector corporations all land their ultra-lucrative contracts off the US government?

In fact, you're asking quite a lot of ANY corporation just to let americans be educated any more than they are... Then ppl here might stop obeying so much and running up so much debt for them!

jsherloc

I'm glad California is still moving forward with our high speed rail. I'll probably die before it ever becomes a reality, but it is nice to see California leading the way in this regard. They've already started work up in the bay transit areas and some central cal areas in preparation.

Southern California is a nightmare to drive around in for the most part IMO, they need this bad.

tatrasim

Freight... That's the thing... Public transportation, including rail roads is waaay underdeveloped, even comparing to some third world countries. As far as I know, Detroit auto industry, back when it was powerful, did all it could to prevent having a good public transportation system in the US.

samgeneric

Why are stupid people so obsessed with fast trains? It makes me think that Ayn Rand was more right than we could ever have expected.

Moxie

^ Ha, as opposed to the geniuses who managed to run up a 14 trillion dollar debt because they were so obsessed with spending on all those other things?

Or the brain wizards obsessed with getting tougher on drugs, resulting in $70 billion a year on prisons?

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REIMktg

What a limited view. Like I said. If not US then who? How about we pull out of Korea? Maybe if we were not in Cuba then the Soviets wouldv'e eventually put their missiles there and the Cold War would still be on? How about we pull out of Europe when the Warsaw pact was strong?

Do you understand how fast an army can plow through a country before the US can get there to help?

Grow up.

Now who is guilty of the Red Herring. My point was that 700 million is less than the economic cost of 1 attack. And if you do not think the massive lowering of interest rates to keep the economy going to did not start the housing boom which then led to the housing crisis then you once again are not paying attention.

Yes it is. The point was that at least the military has a dual purpose. Rail is not used. The people do not want rail. They want better freeways. Better flight options. Rail is archaic unless you are carrying freight which is inefficient to fly.

As testimonials earlier in this thread state. Rail is not that great in th countries that have it.

By the way, as a good liberal, why do you want everyone working in concentrated cities? Why not spend all the rail money on telecommuting technology and dispersed manufacturing. There is no reason everyone needs to work in a dense area. That is old urban economic thinking. Everything can be centralized in zones where you live near work etc. Now there is no need to pile everyone into a rail and get them into cities like NY or Tokyo.


Testimonials above seem to say differently. Plus, if we had more and more efficient highways, auto travel would be faster. Put that into your poll. $2 billion for rail or better freeways. You will never poll that because you know the answer. At least in Southern CA.

By the way, the proposed high speed rail. Where does it go in CA? Is it along a nice fault line? I guess they are good with Rail and Earthquakes in Japan so I should not worry eh? But a Southwest flight is a mere $39. How much for rail?


You are guilty of the Red Herring above also. My point was that NPR & Rail are not worth funding. The war is another argument. I do not agree with the wars either. But I still do not agree with Rail and NPR.

Your statement that NPR is 85% private funded is inaccurate. If I have to endure everyone telling me that Oil Companies are subsidized because the government gives them leases then you should understand that no on, NO ONE, is contributing to NPR without the tax break. And all of those contributions, many are from public funds once removed. Such as university grants.

NPR is bullshit. A great idea to advance culture that was taken over by ideology and has turned into overall propaganda.

Napolean

If there was a huge demand for it, it would happen. Nobody wants to take a train anywhere though.

Aren't the "high speed rails" the politicians keep talking about, the kind that only go 65 mph?

Also, would these trains go from point A to B or would they stop at every train station along the way?

I made the mistake of going to NYC one time on the train, because I figured it would be faster than driving (and wouldn't have to worry about traffic and parking). It took 4 hours because the train stops at every single town along the way.

Driving would have taken less than an hour, the time I would have saved from sitting on the train would have more than compensated for the trouble of finding parking and whatever traffic I got into.

Also not all airports have insane security lines and long waits. Last time I went to Vegas, we flew from Stewart to Detroit, and then to Vegas. There was no line at Stewart (small airport), and really the only thing that slowed us down was the layover in Detroit. If it were a direct flight, would have been pretty quick.

I would love to see a train match that, but I doubt it would happen.

The main incentive for railways and upgrading them would be for commercial shipping, but since Semi-trucks have that cornered, its more efficient to use Trucking. When gas gets too expensive, our railway system will definitely improve in leaps and bounds. Assuming we let private companies do it.