guerilla

From the V for Voluntary Wiki

wiki: Bitcoin

Please watch all 3 videos (you can skip Tulip Mania if you like) before commenting on the argument in the title.

Bitcoins are neat, have some interesting characteristics, but are not money qua money (as money).

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the forward thrusters, engage on you busters,
I cut the mustard.

lukep

Geez, listening to this guy talk is like trying to get over stuttering by reciting War and Peace... This is going to take a while...

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gerMAN

Thank you. I'll check 'em out.

erifdekciw

I dunno whats worse, the idea of bitcoins as a currency or the people that use them.

Every time someone says bitcoins is a dumb idea all the people who use bitcoins go on a warpath bashing them. Kinda like religious nut cases. Then again if you did invest in something so stupid you would defend your actions at all costs because you don't wanna seem like an idiot for doing so.

But have you noticed that people who use bitcoins seem to be either 1 of 2 things.

1. young people, 17-25.
2. naive and sometimes, plain stupid. Guess it comes with the age.

Now if you used the bitcoin thing to get in and get out making some money off stupid people then you are not the people im talking about. You played it smart and made money off a stupid idea, good job.

But anyone here who actually believes in this bitcoin shit being a real currency... what kind of fantasy world are you living in? How stupid can you be to actually think this could ever work? One of the biggest arguments I hear about bitcoins is "the dollar isn't backed by anything, its a piece of paper. so whats so bad about bitcoins".

The problem is the dollar is pretty much has a monopoly in the currency world. It's like you trying to create your own operating system when microsoft was at its peak. Except its 100x worse than that because.

1. your operating system sucks.
2. nobody knows who you are.
3. your idea is a joke.
4. you hardly add anything of value.
5. the whole process is a pain in the ass.
6. and if you somehow managed to make it big enough to become a fly on the radar of government. You would be squashed like a bug.

I just wish I invested in this stupid idea earlier to make a killing on it. (not even sure i could of even got my money out if i did).

Also I'm laughing inside because there were some people on this board who really thought this was a great idea and invested in this shit when it was at like 16-20$ a bit coin. The rate has dropped like a rock since then and is around 5$ right now. Good luck bros.

lukep

Alright, I've made it through the 3 films.

Although I now know they are from Mises and I respect the people behind them, they are clearly making an assumption that currency cannot be a non-consumable commodity.

I fully see his point, it paints a clear HISTORY, but it is his OPINION that this will always be so in the future. Why can't the ability to be traded anonymously, or with no fear of inflation, be virtues that makes up a NEW commodity?

To say "money is only money because it can & will be consumed someday" is very obviously in error. If that were true, then it would be impossible for some bitcoin to have been traded before... But it has.

I will grant that in the history of money, as far as I can see, there are few to none examples of non-consumable money. (Notch-sticks in England perhaps? Wasn't the gold standard based on some notched sticks?) But times have changed and we have new options now of both buying and selling goods on the interwebz.

I heard that Austrian dudes' explanation of why money has always been a commodity. Now, I'm asking you bitcoin doubters; WHY DOES IT ALWAYS HAVE TO BE A COMMODITY IN THE FUTURE?

It's clear that we need better answers to our money problems. Gold will NEVER solve them, and fiat money is even worse. (Both have a controllable money supply.)

So I propose that a bitcoin, or another truly scarce, liquid, and anonymous Bit-currency that follows, IS a commodity just for properly being what it was designed to be. Because we DO NEED IT. -Just like the electronics industry needs gold.

Humanity NEEDS a stable currency.
Humanity NEEDS, more and more as time goes by, an Anonymous currency.

What else can do those? Nothing at all.

Bitcoin IS therefore needed and is therefore a new type of commodity.

Now, setting that aside, I'm kinda bearish myself on bitcoin... Not because it wouldn't be the most elegant solution to our problem, (it certainly would) but because the powers that be would literally kill us all rather than lose control over us all.

Only a more free society could use bitcoin; at the rate we're going now, it will be outlawed soon and the US president will raid any country on earth to overthrow the government there to ensure that country isn't harboring bitcoin miners and users... (Like we did with Saddam and Gaddafhi!)

I wouldn't be too surprised if eventually they stopped the flow of the internet into whole countries (yes, permanently) to ensure bitcoin doesn't go there.

Bottom line: To make bitcoin the #1 currency, we have to completely overthrow the most powerful people in the world, and they have all the armies in the world to stop us with.

Sucks to be human these days...

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lukep

I own no bitcoins at all. Nada. I'm just one of many freedom lovers who would prefer their vast benefits over all alternatives.

Using the words "religious nut cases" on me was obviously designed to get under my skin... But if you read my response above you'll see no "faith" at all... Just appreciation of an elegant solution to mankinds' needs.

If you don't see it that way then you are totally ignorant of bitcoins and how they work.

The fact that our overlords have Tanks and bombs and would gladly use them on me to stop this from taking grasp tells me you may be right... But for no other reason at all.

If the world was full of intelligent people who valued freedom, they would have risen up against our overlords long ago... And a Bitcoin-like currency would already have been the worldwide standard.

As it is we're just fuckin' fish in their barrel.


It's not the dollar itself; it's the power it represents to the owners who will kill you to keep that power. -Nothing more at all.

It's actually far, far superior. You should read up, son!

It's designed that way because anonymity is highly prized! Hell, the designer of the entire project went to great lengths to stay anonymous & distance himself from it so the shitstorm coming one day won't fall on him.

Really, you should really read up. It's the most elegant solution imaginable to the many problems with currency, and if you don't see it that only proves that you aren't intelligent enough to understand.

A currency that can be transferred in any denomination anywhere in the world without exposing any identities? Are you kidding? Or do you just hate freedom?

A currency that can be broadcast to other freaking planets because it has no physical ties at all? Seriously?

A currency that is literally IMPOSSIBLE to counterfeit? This adds no value over gold or fiat monies?? What are you smoking???

Enlighten me on how painful it is to 'process' Bitcoin. Appears as easy as processing USD online to me... Far easier in places like public wifi spots where you don't want anyone grabbing your insecure credit card numbers!

Finally you've got one point. But keep in mind that it wouldn't be that easy for them... Being so anonymous and border-free, killing bitcoins would be like killing every cockroach in new york as long as there are people somewhere willing to trade them with each other.

I really can't say how long it would take to kill bitcoin, but I do know to even attempt to squash them totally, the powers that be would have to blatantly kill many people, and I even believe would have to threaten the world directly not to use them, thereby exposing themselves for the first time.

It's shaping up to be one extremely interesting battle.

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erifdekciw

Yea yea blah blah its such a great idea. that's why its tanking. I guess people just don't believe in the freedom enough! Believe harder people.

lukep

1. I don't know why it's been low lately, but dips happen in the gold market too.

2. Perhaps you're right about there not being enough belief in freedom. Our population is vast and our smart people are very, very, extremely very few. -Meanwhile only the smart will see the good in Bitcoin. The rest are fighting over food stamps...

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vinnythejinny

You nailed it sir but am sure you will see some retards bashing you in next few hours with their great "Bitcoin" knowledge.

Lemme say this once again, "The currency has no value unless its accepted everywhere". How many people in the world accept bitcoins Vs people accepting dollars or for that matter the great " Kuwaiti dinar" :-)

Bitcoin could only remain as a online currency (if at all). As you said, there are so many idiots who put their entire savings into this BS currency,

Example: http://falkvinge.net/2011/05/29/why-...-into-bitcoin/

PhillipMarlow

There was a write up in the economist on them the other day. Had me thinking about using cheap labor to farm and create virtual goods. Anybody do this sort of thing? Lindens, WoW gold, whatever?

Kiopa_Matt

7.) You have to buy a bunch of high-end graphic cards, and basically setup a mini data-center in order to mine enough BitCoins to make it worth while. I have a hard time seeing that go mainstream. Can't see my parents rushing out to buy a bunch of CPUs and graphic cards so they can save money for home renovations.

I guess it'd be kinda neat for WoW guys who want to buy... whatever it is people buy on WoW, but can't see much else coming out of it.

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lukep

So the Euro and the Dollar have no value?

There are certainly many countries that those two currencies aren't accepted in...

How little imagination you have.

You see, there is this thing called TIME. If you advance it, more stuff happens. Stuff you likely can't think of now because it hasn't happened yet. But one day it will! Rest assured, it will.

As for the fool that dumped his savings into BTC, I agree that was foolish. I'm thinking of putting a mining rig together to get some, but I'd never buy any BTC until they are accepted many places and the price stops yo-yoing both.

Gotta admire the dude's spirit, his heart is in the right place, but his brain just wasn't quite all there...

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Kiopa_Matt

Chinese prison guards are way ahead of you:

Chinese prisoners forced to play World of Warcraft, make money for guards | Technology News Blog - Yahoo! News

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lukep

His 6 examples were about using bitcoins as currency, yours is about mining them.

If you want to get your hands on some, you could just try to buy them while they are cheap (Right now!) and get them far cheaper than you would mining...

Edit: But one great thing about mining rigs is that if BTC goes belly-up, you've still got a top-o-the-line gaming rig...

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vinnythejinny

Farming bitcoins is pretty much worthless now, you need massive setup and you probably wont mine anything as valuable anyway. Waste of time, money and resources

dantex

Nice. Leave it to a geek to explain why Bitcoin is so amazing...

....with each point simultaneously explaining why no government or authority would ever let this take over. It's just sad he went all in and didn't realize what he was actually saying.

Kiopa_Matt

Personally, I think this whole BitCoin thing is just an elaborate hoax. Well, not quite hoax. Just imagine how much CPU power the founders of BitCoin have at their disposal now. A whole hell of a lot.

Reminds me of the SETI@Home program, but more than likely, for devious purposes.

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vinnythejinny

so bitcoin fanboy, care to explain your point besides 3 lines random bashing?

PhillipMarlow

^Day be extracting all dere labor value!


I think working for a real mining outfit like the one forum member Benji was talking about somewhere in the Yukon would be badass. My old man did that in the 70s and still knows tons of people up there with land. Giant corporations are leech-mining the fuck out of the mountains up there, but there are still people doing it the old fashioned way. Sounds 10x better than sitting in a cube farm.

lukep

Nah, even if you're purely in it for the converted USD, you can still get in for a while before the payout drops again... But it will depend on two factors:

1. The current price of BTC. Right now it's about $5, which sucks crap. (In May it was only $1 but it was $13 very recently so it still feels bad man.)
2. The cost of power where you mine. (Chart here)

Let's say you spend $2k on a nice rig with 4x HD5870s, outputting 1.624 GigaHashes per second.

Right now at Mt. Gox, Each 100 MH/sec would give you 0.05657795 BTC/day. At rate $5.072 per BTC this gets you $0.2870/day

At 1.624GH/sec, that comes to $4.66 cents per day.

Then you have to pay back electricity, and let's say you pay $0.10 per KWH, which is right in the middle of the chart, slightly more than I pay here in KS.

There are 24 hours in the day so thats .1*24 or $2.40 per day if your rig drinks only one kilowatt per hour. I don't have the exact number but by looking at the charts there it appears it will not be drinking a whole KW per hour, more like 2/3rds or 3/4ths of one... So let's call it $2 per day in electricity costs.

Therefore, $4.66 - $2 = $2.66 Cash daily even at the shitty rate of $5 per BTC. Yeah, the $2k for your rig needs to be paid off first with that, but imagine a week or so ago when it was $13 a BTC.

You just gotta select good graphic cards. ATI HDs all the way. (Stuff you have to fight for on eBay, preferably.) Here are the best performers:



Whenever someone tells you it's too late, ask yourself if they:

A. Are miners themselves and don't want the competition
B. Haven't used a high-end ATI card to mine with so didn't break even
C. Are a Whitehouse/IMF/NATO/Chinese/other plant sent to derail the BTC.

Anyway, the way I hear it is that when it's down like this, the miners are taking days off, and basically tweaking their rigs for max ghashes. When it goes up they get back at it.

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PhillipMarlow

That's a lot of work to go through just to get some money for pot and mushrooms.

vinnythejinny

lukep, there is apparently something that you missed in those calculation: Difficulty factor

The difficulty factor will make it impossible for you to generate those many bitcoins. use this calculator to determine your numbers now: Bitcoin Mining Calculator

They already have the difficulty factor based on the current network

Napolean

One big solar flare and any investment in bitcoins is wiped out. Assuming someone doesn't have a giant paper filing system organizing everyones balances.

Of course, bitcoins would be the least of our worries in such a situation.

Kiopa_Matt

Still not a very good investment though. Event if BTC is at $13 say, that's about $10/day = $300/month. That's 7 months just to pay the rig off before you see any profit, and even then the money isn't enough to care about. If you're going through that much headache for $300/month, there's something wrong.

Then at that whopping $2.66/day you're talking, it's 26 months to pay off the rig, and by then it'll definitely be time to buy a new rig. Not exactly the investment opportunity of a lifetime.

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erect

I have no skin in this game at all, but it seems to me that they're decent for trade ... I'm not sure how this ties into "money" or currency or whatever, but it does tell me that demand for something similar is in place. Perhaps the value of bitcoins falls to nothing, there will be a successor. Cycles of cpu (proc or graphics) has current, but perhaps not future, value. The problem here is that hardware gets better and they've set bitcoins to stop being produced ... which means that the faster computers of the future, that would likely have much more processing power, will get less value from doing more. This seems to be a major flaw in my book because if that argument was erased, I can see the value of the processing cycles.

If they're never used for anything except digital goods trading (not even including drugs) and truly are ANONYMOUS they still have value to a good chunk of people, including teh paranoid at heart like myself.

All that said, it's definitely the potential for this idea ... not bitcoins themself .. that have my interest. I probably wouldn't even accept them when pushing electrons.

erect

So let me ask this question:

Suppose these bitcoin people gave the owners of each bitcoin access to the processing power of current mining operations as the "value" backing the currency. In this example, they sound more like an investment (dividends) but does it better define money?

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richcam

That would apply to any currencies, its all just some numbers inside someone (banks) computers.

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dantex

I am not a bitcoin fanboy. Just pointing out that the bitcoin fanboy in the article you posted didn't understand that every "pro" he listed for Bitcoins actually paints a massive target on it's back by the establishment.

guerilla

It's not an opinion. It is a matter of logic.

Bitcoins are inflated.

Bitcoin can be traded as a barter item, but it is not a money. Don't confuse the two. You cannot price in Bitcoins and THAT is why they cannot be money.

Because that is the only way it can be priced.

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Thank you for your attentiveness,
the forward thrusters, engage on you busters,
I cut the mustard.

erifdekciw

Also why would anyone with a brain put money into this? There is no safety net for having your money in bitcoins. At least if you put your money in a bank you have some security to protect your money. Now if the dollar went belly up and the economy crashed then you would you shit out of luck, but there are millions of people around the world that are insuring that doesn't happen. The only thing holding bit coin up are a bunch of 17-25 year old 4chan kids who believe in an anonymous currency to buy their drugs.

So wheres your safety net in bitcoins? Since its not a bank your money can't be protected. If you get hacked and all your bitcoins taken then your screwed. At a real bank your money can be protected.

Unauthorized transaction? who do you complain to about that on bitcoin? Guess your shit out of luck on that one too.

Like someone else said, this is pretty much an investment. Not a currency. Your basically investing in an idea. And as long as people remain ignorant to how stupid bitcoin is, then investors will make money off them.

Jeeta

The reality of bitcoin. A quote from YouTube.

"you are right, I discovered about a week ago that this rig was actually part of a very powerful botnet which was being used to hack into several banks on the East Coast. Now I see where all of the Bitcoin money was coming from :-( I'm going to shutdown this operation within the next 30 days."

lukep

^Reasons #1 & #2 I have no investment at all yet.

If I get in with a Rig myself it'll be because I see awesome growth and room for expansion.

Bitcoin increased in worth over 1000 Times already... And that's with an incredibly small percentage of people knowing what they are.

Perhaps if RP were elected the atmosphere could change a bit? Then millionaires would all want to hide their wealth in BTC, and each bitcoin could go up to Thousands of dollars in value each!


Pools remove that. It is highly recommended to mine in at least 2 pools with other people to spread out the diff factor over a very large number of other miners. In this case you don't have a difficulty factor, but you do have a percentage "take" of the pool.

Lately there are certain pools popping up that don't even take a cut! Bitcoin Mining Pool - Home is one. -And it is run by a WF member, too!

Only if the flare wiped out electronic networks in all corners of the globe at once. (We'd all be dead then surely.)

It's actually far more stabilized than central bank computer networks for this purpose, because it's peer-to-peer exclusively.

Who? It lives only peer-to-peer & is self-managing....

The processing is already being used by something so ingenious that using the processing for any other purpose would be a major step back.

This processing basically ensures that bitcoin is 100% completely safe from being counterfeited. You'd literally have to get a larger network of processing together than all the bitcoin miners & users in existence to attempt to counterfeit any bitcoin right now, but if you had that processing power it would be far more profitable to use it to mine bitcoin yourself!

A truly elegant system.


Sounds like broken logic if people find value in superior trading units.


And what currency can't be inflated? At least they are completely scarce so they have more controls over inflation than other currencies...

Not yet. They'll have to stabilize, this is granted. But if BTC in & of itself is found to have value by the masses, then they would be indeed by a commodity, like gold.

It's really all about if it's going to catch on or not. If it does not, you're right. If it does, you're dead wrong. Because if everyone uses them and finds value in them, why wouldn't they be the best commodity in the world for use as a currency?

Granted, safety that the BTC will exist tomorrow is THE reason $1,000 =/= 1 BTC now nor is it in widespread use.

It's a huge obstacle to overcome; and anyone who thinks the USA or NATO or even the UN is going to sit back and allow BTC to become a major world currency has some sad times ahead.

But if you learn about bitcoin and how ingenious the design is for getting around their defenses, you will clearly see that the powers that be would have an easier time ridding all of New York city of cockroaches than ridding the world of bitcoin.

What would their options be?

The "Nuclear" option would be to literally hunt down and kill all known users, regardless of country.

No doubt that is world war three, so you know they are going to avoid that option at all costs.

The next closest option is to find a way to completely and utterly destroy the interwebz, and scan everyone at the ports & airports for data transfer. (And destroy all data going through.) No country would feel free anymore with all citizens told that they aren't allowed to take jump drives, laptops, MP3 players nor smartphones through. There'd be an uprising for sure.

Interestingly though, there doesn't appear to be any other options for the powers that be outside of propaganda. They can make the people think that BTC is bad for them...

That's really their only play.

...Seems to me they've already started this campaign and it's working on you.


Stolen bitcoin is stolen. The rules change a little bit, but some safeties like chargeback protection could be created in the private sector, perhaps as a bitcoin insurance company. I bet there would be many new industries created around bitcoins with awesome benefits we can't dream of now.

It's the people that are stupid, not bitcoin.

That's precisely what's making them a poor investment.

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mont7071

OK, not a bitcoin owner/miner personally, but its an intriguing concept to me. A couple things people keep throwing out on this thread I know to be false and can be looked up easily enough.

1) There is a finite amount of bitcoins that can ever exist. The concept behind them is a logarithmic scale that, as the "mining" of them gets closer to that final number, the amount of processing power taken to "mine" those last bitcoins is infinitely more than the amount of processing power needed to mine the first bitcoins. IMHO that is something in their favor, that actually makes them more akin to gold or silver than paper fiat money, because there is a finite amount that can ever exist, unlike paper fiat money, which a gov't can always simply print more of.

2. I'm no P2P expert, but there simply isn't a way for a gov't to "shut it down" anymore than a gov't could "shut down" the exchange of any other digital file sent anonymously. As to hacking/counterfeiting, my understanding of how bitcoins work is that each additional bitcoin "mined' is actually adding to the hash that "tracks/validates" the transactions already out there, so bitcoins have none of the counterfeiting risk of printed paper currency.

Usefulness as a medium of exchange (e.g. "money") depends on acceptance by 2 parties in an exchange to accept whatever that object is as a medium of exchange, and agree on the valuation/"exchange rate". Manhattan was sold for beads and shells, Native Americans in the West used blankets as currency, etc. If I want to trade pretty rocks for hosting services, as long as the hosting provider is willing to accept those pretty rocks as payment and provide me hosting services in exchange, than those pretty rocks are "money" in that regard, bitcoins are no different.

Jeeta

Napolean

Unless you use gold and silver as currency, or any physical commodity for that matter.

-joe-

Find me a shop that accepts payment by gold, and I'll call it a currency.

lukep

LOL! Sad but true.

This is a perfect example of why physical commodities are becoming useless, and Mises is wrong about currency needing to be a commodity.

Currency now DESPERATELY needs to be based online!

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VonRohn

Britfag and Lukefag,

Gold sovereigns are legal tender in the UK. Australian Nuggets are legal tender in Australia.

Kthnxbi

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I've got lots of lovely lire.
Now the Deutschmark's getting dearer,
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Kstanki2

People that invest in BTC are stupid. There's no way of telling what the hell is going to happen to the price of bitcoins in advance, it fluctuates wildly in reaction to the slightest of changes in the BTC marketplace, you simply cant rely on it for investments (yet).

People who use it to remain anonymous however, are smart. In terms of transferring money over the internet in a completely anonymous fashion, BTC is the most reliable way to go. I hope it flourishes and stabilizes so that the underground drug and assassination markets can do the same, those guys never catch a break.

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lukep

That's no argument... Any coin made of gold is no longer practical for use anymore at face value once the price of gold itself goes up after printing... It CAN be used still, of course, but doing so is plain stupid.

The varying price of the commodity makes the currency turn into a commodity again. This is another problem that bitcoin solves by simple ease of division. (i.e. it's easier to split digital currency into fragments than it is to split a gold coin into fragments.)


You have to break a few eggs to make a cake.

So some assassins and other baddies will have an easier time accepting cash. (It's doubtful they can't accept any right now, so it's not like BTC will invent many more baddies.)

This is a small price to pay for everyones' freedom.

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Kstanki2

I fully agree- while several large "criminal" marketplaces run solely on BTC, this is no reason to denounce the currency (I don't think anyone can seriously make that argument, the biggest and baddest guys don't bother with BTC, just a few small fries selling shrooms on the internet, nothin' wrong with that).

However, I'm curious to see where bitcoins circulate the most. I haven't seen any legitimate online stores/marketplaces/vendors that take bitcoins as of yet. The only things that I've seen BTC used for is investments/mining and black market stuff. While I personally don't see a problem with this (how boring would the world be without the counter cultures?), in order for BTC to stay afloat it needs to broaden it's horizons- and fast.

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ayzo

BTC = pokemon cards/beanie babies/baseball cards/etc

All of the above have some sort of value that other people who are interested in those markets have assigned but to me all of those things are worthless because I can't use a baseball card to pay for my gas, a stuffed animal won't get me any groceries, and I think it's safe to say Chase won't accept my accumulated CPU cycles as a deposit. Sure I could try to sell them but there isn't much liquidity, I'd have an easier time moving in and out of gold, silver, and even Chinese Yuans than I would any of the above.

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lukep

I'm sure shady stuff like drugs are the #1 use so far, but I am also sure that a growing %age is investment, like that post mentioned above.

As for who Takes bitcoin, the list is GINORMOUS:

https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Trade

(Note that Products or services illegal in US or Japan are removed immediately)

...I have no idea how up-to-date this list is, but I do know that the vendors here on WF who take Bitcoin aren't on it so I have to assume it's nowhere near complete.

SO.... How many vendors have to take it before it has "Caught on?" That's the real question...

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VonRohn

Did I said something about practicality? No. How about you learn to debate and lay off the fallacies.

I merely replied to britfag Joe that said "Find me a shop that accepts payment by gold, and I'll call it a currency." (you, lukefag, concurred).

Every shop in the UK has to accept gold sovereigns (with a minimum weight of 7.94 grams) since they're legal tender. Similar rules apply in Australia for Australian nuggets.

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I've got ninety thousand pounds in my pyjamas.
I've got forty thousand French francs in my fridge.
I've got lots of lovely lire.
Now the Deutschmark's getting dearer,
And my dollar bills would buy the Brooklyn Bridge.

Napolean

Pawn shops?

lukep

In that case thank you for adding nothing to the debate... Since your input wasn't intended as any form of evidence against Bitcoin then I humbly apologize for my defense against your totally non-related comment.

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-joe-

That's a common belief held by many, but actually, that's wrong. Shops don't have to accept anything as payment, even if they're legal tender. For example, Scottish notes are legal tender, but many shops don't accept them. It's the same with £50 notes. It's up to the shop. If a shop wants to only accept payment in cattle, they're perfectly entitled to.

-joe-

Can't edit now.

Turns out Scottish notes aren't technically legal tender. The point still stands in regards to £50 notes though.

Ar Scion

Calling people fags is not an argument, bro.

That being said, nobody is really tackling the Mises assertions on currency. That's what you guys should be talking about.

Here's what I don't get- How the hell are you gonna make sure you're not gonna get hacked/robbed/scammed/phished/tricked out of all your money? No regulations bro. The place is like the wild west out there.

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