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Amazing Answer

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LazyHippy

The frustrating thing about these sorts of discussions are when people make statements like this. I'm sure you don't realise the illogicality of your statement - beauty is subjective - but I'm sure you 'believe' it.

Xecutech, interesting post. It wouldn't surprise me at all in Jesus's attitude to modern churches was the same and he would probably have hated the shit that followed his death and most likely the chosen text for the bible.

It's been well documented that the bible was created to advance a particular cause at a particular time, yet in a sad irony millions of people use the exact words in it as a way to live their lives.

Brian got it right: "You don't need to follow me, you don't need to follow anybody! You've got to think for yourselves! You're all individuals! You're all different!"

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BlondeTM

I think a person can be an individualist while also following a particular religion. The key is not use the religion as a way to manipulate others or let others manipulate you with religion.

springer

From where did this higher power come? Did it just burst upon the scene one day and begin creating things or was it also created? If so, by whom or what?

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BlondeTM

There are some things in life that really don't have answers. To me, that's one of them. It's the whole basis of faith.

SUP3RNOVA

i guess logicality is subjective as well, as i pull my logic from my own personal experiences and base it on what has "worked" for me. much like i do with my affiliate campaigns. if i'm bidding $1.00 and consistently losing money, it's just logical to decrease my bids.

nobody will ever be able to answer those questions, from either a religious or atheist standpoint.

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Supergeek

My opinion about the whole god thing:

There are too many religions all with fervant and sincere believers for any one of them to be "right" in terms of exclusivity. They all have sincere faith. Even the guys who hear voices that tell them they need to commit suicide or they'll miss their ride on the comet. Belief can obviously be a delusion. Since they can't all be right in the details, the whole matter of belief is suspect.

Believing in a higher power, anthropromorphic or not, is not itself stupid, but I think a lot of people confuse that belief, or wish, with a requirement to be affiliated with an organized religion -- even if it means accepting ridiculous tenets like a child will go to hell unless someone pours water on its head in a ceremony it cannot comprehend, or that they're going to get 72 virgins if they die while blowing up other people for their faith.

I believe myself to be a good person. I don't harm others intentionally, and I don't like to see suffering. I attended Baptist, Lutheran, and Catholic schools while growing up, and I saw sincerity and hypocrisy standing shoulder to shoulder every day.

Is a person's lack of faith an intrinsic fault? A problem with the "soul"? Religion was thrown at me, but it did not stick. If there was a Creator, and he created me, that lack of faith is not my fault.

So, as a reasonable, empathetic person, should I be condemned to an eternity of suffering just because I didn't think it was right for me? And what about the people throughout history who were never exposed to religion? Unless the Creator is evil or spiteful, Justice would demand that equal opportunities to believe should be given to everyone. And if that Creator is evil or spiteful, we have already lost.

BlondeTM

I don't think there is a cut and dry answer. I believe in my religion's teachings, which is how I try to live my life. However, what you described as how you life your life is very close to my religion's teaching (Presbyterian by the way). My religion also isn't exclusive, it doesn't believe that all non-Presbyterians are doomed.

It could be that we as humans have over-complicated things and we're all just supposed to be decent to each other and be the best people we can be, living up to our fullest potential. None of us know for sure.

It's like life...I think God looks at individuals as individuals. There are some people I give second and third chances to when they fuck up because I know they're good people. I know what their values are. There are others that don't even get a second chance, because I know they'll fuck up over and over because their only priority is what they get out of things.

LazyHippy

Any of you seen The Second Coming? Not sure if it was shown outside the UK, but definitely worth a watch. Very thought-provoking.

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Supergeek

That's the kind of open-minded attitude I like. Good for you.

Supergeek

Eccleston is great, but I haven't seen that film.

Reminds me of one of my favorite poems:

The Second Coming
W.B. Yeats

<dl><dd>Turning and turning in the widening gyre</dd><dd>The falcon cannot hear the falconer;</dd><dd>Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;</dd><dd>Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,</dd><dd>The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere</dd><dd>The ceremony of innocence is drowned;</dd><dd>The best lack all conviction, while the worst</dd><dd>Are full of passionate intensity.</dd></dl> <dl><dd>Surely some revelation is at hand;</dd><dd>Surely the Second Coming is at hand.</dd><dd>The Second Coming! Hardly are those words out</dd><dd>When a vast image out of Spiritus Mundi</dd><dd>Troubles my sight: somewhere in the sands of the desert</dd><dd>A shape with lion body and the head of a man,</dd><dd>A gaze blank and pitiless as the sun,</dd><dd>Is moving its slow thighs, while all about it</dd><dd>Reel shadows of the indignant desert birds.</dd><dd>The darkness drops again; but now I know</dd><dd>That twenty centuries of stony sleep</dd><dd>Were vexed to nightmare by a rocking cradle,</dd><dd>And what rough beast, its hour come round at last,</dd><dd>Slouches towards Bethlehem to be born?</dd></dl>

springer

Perhaps the most profound statement in this entire thread...

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LazyHippy

I think you've hit the nail on the head. Most of us agree on the basics (world leaders excluded) - don't kill, treat people how you'd like to be treated, etc.. but we don't need a mountain of doctrine and a hierarchy of clerics to tell us that.

Man, it would be so much easier to just follow a path someone else had laid, less thinking, less questioning, just believe. I don't think I'll ever be one of those people though and I doubt I'll ever have answers to my questions.

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turbolapp

That is the 2nd time lazy hippy and springer said almost the exact same thing around the same time ( I think the other thread was the n00by challenge thread)

Weird shit.

xecutech

Your right lazy hippy, we don't have to have a mountain of doctrine and a hierarchy of clerics, as that is what Jesus was teaching. The leaders of the church burdened believers into having to go through rituals, basically worshipping them and excluding the lower class. Jesus lifted that burden, done away with old rules, called the leaders out on what they really where... hypocrates, and basically telling us to love each other.

God is the alpha and the omega. I used to have a hard time believing in God, but one day it came to me. If I created everything in the world and the world, I wouldn't feel like I have to explain myself or my plan to anyone. We have free will to believe in God, and if he opened the sky to prove he is real, then we would have no other choice but to believe, then there wouldn't be faith. Another reason God doesn't reveal himself is that he only comes to those who choose to believe. He doesn't push himself on anyone.

I am really glad this conversation is remaining rational and respectful of each others views.

BlondeTM

I agree, this is one of the best religion discussions I have ever had outside of close friends talking about it.

Supergeek

Speaking of rational, if god became man and visited earth and proved his divinity, the people who were there to witness it would not have faith, they'd have proof, and therefore faith would be invalid for them.

Also, how can someone "choose" to believe? That's like choosing to like french fries. Atheists are not obstinate children refusing to do their homework or clean their room. Most of them have searched internally and have found no faith, not that they ignore the faith they do have.

SUP3RNOVA

It is an intrinsic fault, as you're the one that has to have a personal faith. Maybe it didn't stick because your lack of faith wasn't there for it all to make sense. I can empathize with that because I used to be the same way...hell I still am that way a little now. There's always going to be shit where you're questioning if you're insane for truly believing in what you do. Like most things in life, I use personal experience to gauge my sanity, in any aspect - religion and affiliate marketing. About a year ago things got pretty shitty for me, I quit my job to attempt working online, lost money, bank account on the negatives which meant overdraft charges. Things just weren't good. So I started putting real faith in God...maybe for a minute I thought it was pure coincidence that almost immediately I started making money and turning rather profitable. Honestly there were too many times when my Azoogle account looked shitty, and I just walked away from the comp and prayed for a few minutes, and come back to refresh the screen and find 3 new leads (which was a lot for me at the time when I would usually get 10 leads a day). Much too many times that has happened for it to be coincidence. The more faith I put in God and the more I try and give back, the more comes to me. So from my own personal standpoint, there's no way I'm ever looking back or changing my faith, as it's done nothing but reward me while also giving me the opportunity to reward and help other people.

Believe it or not a lot of them were really weak in faith, even after seeing what Jesus did. And most people hadn't witnessed any of the miracles and had to rely on faith that Jesus would help them out in some way.

That goes into an completely new topic - how literal to actually take the Bible. I definitely believe that a lot of people take the Bible much too literally. I don't believe that God created the world in 7 days, I believe the people of that time wouldn't have any way to possibly understand physics, the Big Bang Theory, and true origins of the universe.


It is offensive though when people are fucking ignorant and like to post jackass comments and threads concerning a whole religion without realizing that everyone isn't "crazy" in it. I'd never push Christianity on anybody...I'd encourage it from my own experience, but ultimately the decision isn't mine to make.


Also, although many posters here are atheist, we all can learn a thing or two about making a better world by reading the Bible. Even if you don't believe in Jesus as a prophet, the messages he preaches still are all very good for anyone to hear - as are the messages from Buddah and religions alike. Unfortunately due to extremist views on both ends of the spectrum (atheists being ignorant and people murdering in the name of religion), things don't work out and that's when bad things happen.


And holy shit I was not intending on posting that much.

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LazyHippy

Please don't lump all non-believers together as atheists. It's not black and white, there's a million shades of grey.

I believe in nothing, but think there may be something.

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xecutech

Could that be considered agnostic?

Oh and I wasn't assuming I am talking to only atheists on here.

LazyHippy

I don't know.....

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turbolapp

This is where you lost me. Most of the bible is filled with violence, child abuse, oppression, misogyny, pedophilia, and hate. How would following a text like this ever lead this world to a better place?

Some of you might have seen this "letter" below address to Dr. Laura. It was written after she aired her opinion that homosexuality is a "mistake of nature". I like it because it forces people to confront the reality of a text that they say is "the word of God"...

Dear Dr. Laura:

Thank you for doing so much to educate people regarding God's Law. I have learned a great deal from your radio show, and I try to share that
knowledge with as many people as I can. When someone tries to defend the homosexual lifestyle, for example, I simply remind them that Leviticus
18:22 clearly states it to be an abomination. End of debate. I do need some
advise from you, however, regarding some of the specific Bible laws and how to follow them.

a)I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus
21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?
She's 18 and starting University. Will the slave buyer continue to pay for
her education by law ?


b)When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a
pleasing odor for the Lord (Lev. 1:9). The problem is my neighbors. They
claim the odor is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them?

c)I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her
period of menstrual uncleanliness (Lev. 15:19-24). The problem is, how do I
tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offense.

d)Lev. 25:44 states that I may indeed possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighboring nations. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can you clarify? ......Why can't I own Canadians? <<--(love this line)

e)I have a neighbor who insists on working on the
Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally
obligated to kill him myself, or should this be a neighborhood improvement
project ?

f)A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an
abomination (Lev. 11:10), it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I
don't agree. Can you settle this?

g)Lev. 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a
defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my
vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle room here? Would contact
lenses help ?

h)Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair around
their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev.19:27. How
should they die?

i)I know from Lev. 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me
unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves?

j)My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev. 19:19 by planting two different
crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of two
different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend). He also tends to curse
and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble
of getting the whole town together to stone them? (Lev.24:10-16) Couldn't
we just burn them to death at a private family affair like we do with
people who sleep with their in-laws? (Lev. 20:14)
I know you have studied these things extensively, so I am confidentyou can
help. Thank you again for reminding us that God's word is eternal and
unchanging.

elime

Turbolapp, I've read the Dr. Laura letter before - good stuff.

I believe Richard Dawkins' The God Delusion summed it up quite accurately:

"The God of the Old Testament is arguably the most unpleasant character in all fiction: jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully."

xecutech

You know, I think this discussion would be better suited than copying and pasting the opinions of someone other than yourself. Seriously, you should have your own opinion, as Dr. Laura and Richard Dawkins isn't in this conversation.

I have refrained from using quotes from the Bible to be fair. There are far too many points we can bring up on our own, and it would take me half the day to attempt to challenge every article you copy and paste here, I do have to work you know???

popeye

I listened to this "expert" the other day on the radio. She is a fuckin idiot

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turbolapp

Granted it would take time. But I'm sure there's a christian website out there that explains why in the world a loving god would say and require such things. By all means cut and paste it here. Because whether I found the quotes by scouring the bible myself or I cut and pasted it from somewhere else, the fact still remains that these passages are straight from the bible. While I cannot speak for the other questioners here, I think the main perplexity that confounds atheists and agnostics alike is, Why do people put their faith in a religion or in a text which such awful teachings?

xecutech

Well for one I consider myself a Christian, which I mainly follow the new testament, which was a new covenant with God. I don't concern myself much with the old testament, nor act like I have all the answers. Everything most people have problems with is the old testament, but if you read the new testament, you will find that most things your complaining about is not in there.

Again, I am not going to get into a copy and paste debate with you. I don't "have" to justify my beliefs, as i also thought we were just having a friendly conversation about faith and religion. Your not having to defend yourself, nor should I. We can just agree to disagree, but you can't give us a book review if your not the one reading the book.

LazyHippy

That is fuckin genius!

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xecutech

How so? That is old testament and we do not have the power to smite anyone, as we are taught to love one another.

BlondeTM

I agree with this wholeheartedly.

That letter was not only used to slam Dr. Laura, it took the bible out of context. That's like trying to apply a 1920's homemaking book to how wives should run a household today.

Slams by fanatics like Dr. Laura and those that vehemently oppose her to the point of twisting words (which makes them just like her) does nothing but turn discussions where people actually learn about each other's beliefs into petty arguing. I'm liking this discussion and I hope it doesn't go that route.

BlondeTM

Fuck.

It looks like another great thread is derailed.

xecutech

How so?

BlondeTM

Eh...

the dr. laura thing. It's nothing more than email spam type fodder. It isn't a serious piece, it's crap. I don't support Dr. Laura, but I don't support the slammers either. It's hyperbole which I hate in discussions.

xecutech

Well, that's why I said we shouldn't copy and paste articles in a personal discussion. I think Dr. Laura is a qucak, so I wouldn't be surprised if someone did put her in her place, but the post above is very far from putting anyone in there place, or proving a point.

LazyHippy

Because it was in response to someone else using the Bible to justify homophobia... and it was funny!

Ok, so some Christians view the new testament as the word of God and the Old testament as what? Are the ten commandments and the story of Genesis just as irrelevant as Leviticus?

Wasn't it the new testament though that was selectively complied from numerous books in such a way to promote the fledgling Christian church? How are the stories and teachings in there more reliable than those in the older texts? How do you decide which bits to take literally and which as metaphors?

Thou shalt not kill ... literal (for most people anyway)
Thou shalt not covet thy neighbours oxon.... gotta be a metaphor, right?

Created in his own image... do you guys take that literally? God is a humanoid?
What about the virgin birth... would it be going too far to say that wasn't literally true? The only way I can think to tie that in with biology is if say the 'angel' that visited Mary used some form of artificial insemination or something.

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SUP3RNOVA

The world we live in now is filled with those same things. I'm not advising to follow what the people did, but to what Jesus taught. Every single word in the Bible isn't literally the word to follow...once again many people take some of the things too literally.

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popeye

Guess I will go ahead and follow the flock and try to conduct myself according to the new testement. At the very least I will die someday knowing that I lived my life in a decent and caring manner.

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LazyHippy

But which bits to you follow? If you just follow Jesus's teachings and leave out all the rest then do you have any need for Christianity? How do you know which accounts of his teachings are accurate and which are not? Even within the bible the books differ, not to mention other texts and accounts of his life not included.

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xecutech

Well not agreeing with homosexuality is not always homophobia, but that's a different discussion.

I believe the entire bible is the word of God, but not everything applies to everyone. I am not sure how to explain all of it, but some things are metaphors, poetry and songs and some are prophecy. There are a list of rules too, but they are common sense to me.

I would hardly consider the Christian church to be fedgling, as it has grown from day one. It has grown even against threats of death, torture and ridicule. We talk abut those who have killed in the name of religion, but how many have died for their beliefs?

In his own image, may be the spirit that dwells inside us or it could mean his idea, but again I don't think we have the mindset to think like God, so some things are not always going to be known to us.

Even science has proven that you don't have to have a male and female to procreate, with frogs I believe, so why couldn't it happen to Mary. Also, God can do anyting he wants, as it's really all his plan. Plus it wouldn't be a miracle if it made since. Plus, in order for us to go to God is in spirit form after death, so if God was going to come into our world he would have to be born into flesh.

I can't explain everything and i don't claim to really know anything other than what I feel. I have faith, so thats the only way I can explain it really. I guess the main reason this thread started was to just point out to consider other peoples feelings when discussing their faith, or lack of it.

emp

Yuck.

Man, I hate religious idiots, but religious idiots who preach AND pick the cherries out of their religion of choice just give me the urge to vomit.

::emp::

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turbolapp

On that note, I am now bowing out of the debate as I have suddenly found an addiction to the Bubbles game. But I did want to note that the top 3 previous posts are : <TABLE class=tborder id=threadslist cellSpacing=1 cellPadding=6 width="100%" align=center border=0><TBODY><TR><TD class=alt1 id=td_threadtitle_18727 title=http://russellsteapot.com/images/comics/2007/Image089.jpg>One for the christians. ( 1 2)
emp
</TD><TD class=alt2 title="Replies: 55, Views: 327"></TD><TD class=alt1 align=middle>55</TD><TD class=alt2 align=middle>327</TD><TD class=alt1>And Now For Something Completely Different...</TD></TR><TR><TD class=alt1 id=td_threadstatusicon_18543> </TD><TD class=alt2></TD><TD class=alt1 id=td_threadtitle_18543 title="So I get this email that a Marcia Johnson (whom I don't know) has posted something in my inbox from facebook: If you said I don't believe in..."> Goddamn Sheeple. ( 1 2)
turbolapp
</TD><TD class=alt2 title="Replies: 89, Views: 721"></TD><TD class=alt1 align=middle>89</TD><TD class=alt2 align=middle>721</TD><TD class=alt1>And Now For Something Completely Different...</TD></TR><TR><TD class=alt1 id=td_threadstatusicon_18747> </TD><TD class=alt2></TD><TD class=alt1 id=td_threadtitle_18747 title="ABC News: Outing Gives Potter Passages New Meaning JK Rowlings announced that Dumbledore is gay. *yawn* "> Dumbledore is gay
SEO_Mike
</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

Man I love this forum!!!!

xecutech

Am I being guilty of this? I thought I was being quite fair in answering the posts in this thread.

I will point out though, that people can pick out bits from the Bible to make it sound good, just as atheists can pick out parts to make it sound bad. So, unless you read the Bible, it's hard to really have an argument on what's in the bible, and no one should tell people what the Bible is. Everyone who chooses to read it should do so for personal evaluation and insight. If they think it's bs, then that's their opinion, as it changes nothing for those who do believe in it.

Seriously, why does it matter or give reason to attack those who do believe in God? If you don't believe, that's between you and God. If I live my life believing and living how I feel is good, and then die and I am wrong, I will either not know I was wrong, but lived a good life. If I am right I win a big prize!

I think you should eveluate why you don't believe in God, but not base it on what you heard or read, but really search within yourself. I see so many people follow what others do and say about atheism, and atheists call Christians sheep???

BlondeTM

Say what?

There are no cherries. Religion, and especially the bible is based mainly on interpretation. If you and I read the same book, even if we both loved it, we'd come up with different interpretations of at least some parts.

Now if you're saying that people try to convert others by portraying their own view as the cherry (like those who blow up other people in the name of a religion) then I have to say I agree with you. They're rationalizing their bad actions in the name of religion.

BlondeTM

Know what else?

Why is it that Christians that don't force their religion on people can defend their reason for faith without calling athiests and agnotics things like "hellboy" or "doomed to burn" (ok, they're lame but I can't come up with anything else on such short notice), and yet Christians are supposed to be ok with being called idiots and sheeple and stupid followers and ignorant and so on?

Supergeek

If you are not an idiot or a blindly-following sheep, you don't need to take offense. There are many that fall under those descriptions, however.

elime

I've got a question. How many of the religious folks in here have actually read the Bible? I mean cover to cover. The entire thing. The response I hear nine times out of ten is "Uh, well, you know...most of it. Like parts and stuff."

I'd at least consider reading something in it's entirety before proselytizing, let alone basing my life around it's teachings.

I am a firm atheist, but I've read the Bible - not just the parts that are disgusting and barbaric - all of it. I am honestly curious how many "believers" can say they have done the same?

I'll request ahead of time that no, I am not attempting to flex my "intellectual" muscle to prove how much smarter I am and therefore how much smarter atheists are because I read a book. This is not a matter of intellectualism or individual worth, I only find it interesting.

Just to take it a step further, if you have read the Bible completely, how many other religious texts have you read? Have you balanced your research with nonreligious or scientific literature?

The last religious book I read was the Bhagavad Gita, of the Hindu faith. I'm currently working my way through The Ancestor's Tale, an interesting method of presenting Evolution by - gasp, not that horrible man - Richard Dawkins.

I'm pretty sure this is the vomiting Emp was referring to, since I taste something a little uncomfortable in the back of my throat.

Seriously, it's my opinion. You feel very entitled to yours, why do you not show others the same respect? Because I disagree with you on many subjects and find your method of spirituality distasteful, it is not an attack. I personally find that kind of response a cop-out.

Since this post has possibly taken an abrasive tone depending on the reader, I'd just like to say that even though we're in different worlds when it comes to opinions on religion, philosophy, etc. I have absolutely no beef with you whatsoever, Xecutech. I'm sure in other conversations we'd get along fine - but in this one you sure make me want to pull my hair out.

xecutech

I honestly do see why, I have been more than fair in my discussion. If I have offended you, I apologize as it is not my intention to do so. I was just following the discussion of why I have faith. I was never making this a debate, nor have I said anything negative about atheists. I even admitted I was one at one time.

I am here more for the info on wp and not as a religious forum. There are plenty of place to go to speak on faith. I was just adding to the thread. I do not dislike you nor any of you. Everyone is entitled to their beliefs and opinions and all I was asking for was the same. Thanks for your time.

Supergeek

I think the biggest problem is our topic has veered off into a lot of tangents. So, if anyone would like to debate a specific, narrow topic in a new thread, I'd love to participate, but we've really rambled, and I'm one of the guilty parties.

Thanks for participating.

springer

I appreciate your opinion and defend your right to express it... as well as the opinions and rights of everyone else reading or posting here.

I was raised in a baptist home and it was those same baptists that talked me out of the ability to have any type of religious belief, whatsoever. Their dogma is what ruined it.

First, there was the bible. They told me the bible was the eternal and unchanging word of god. Then they said there was a "new" testament; Bible 2.0, and THAT was the eternal, unchanging word of god. So, god changed his mind?

They wanted me to believe god was loving and caring and compassionate and would always forgive me and take care of me, no matter what. But, if I ever so much as questioned my faith, god would let me burn in hell. So much for that loving, caring, compassionate stuff.

Then they told me god couldn't cast me into hell but he cast lucifer there for being a bad angel. Hmmmm, I'm starting to see a pattern here and it's not just christianity I have a problem with. All religions seem to have similar opposite battles going on within their teachings.

I believe there must have been a beginning somewhere, I just don't know where or how it all began. Do I believe in some old guy in a white robe in the clouds playing people like marrionettes? NO! Is there some "power" in the universe? There must be something like a universal energy we all share and whatever it is that makes us who we are... spirit or whatever, floats around there until it finds a place to land.

Do I believe I was created in the likeness of some god? Nope. I was created because my fathers sperm invaded my mothers egg and a rapid division of cells occurred, causing me to develop. I wasn't "alive" until I got out of there and started sucking air and a little of that universal energy got on me.

I live by 2 "commandments" and they are my own:
1. Give a little, take a little.
2. Keep yourself clean.

If you think about them, you can make your own interpretations. I won't be pretentious enough to try to dictate what they SHOULD mean to you.

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BlondeTM

elime, I have read the bible cover to cover. No, not recently.

I haven't read other religious text.

However, I recently read Atlas Shrugged and was profoundly affected by the philosophy of it all. Ayn Rand was an athiest I believe. I didn't blow it off because it didn't follow into the tidy little world of the dogmatic Christians. The ones like springer described.


I also didn't take your post as abrasive, I read it as passionate. Passionate response is the way to live life to the fullest. Nothing wrong with that.