popeye

Are Nazis and KKK religeous groups? Yes these groups are idiots and membership are in very tiny numbers. However they usually do thier "deeds" in the name of thier race...not the Christian God. Don't remember the last time I heard of the KKK or the Nazis cutting off non-belivers heads or bombing large groups of innocent citizens because they do not worship the same way.

Thier is no way anyone can compare the extreme Muslims with the Christian extremist. No way. In your future arguments you might want to mention Tim Mcvey. He is a far better example of the Christian Extremist than the KKK or Nazis.

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emp

Don't even think Christians are above hate crimes.

Religious hate crimes rise fivefold | Special reports | Guardian Unlimited
FBI: Jews target of religious hate crimes

And then, there is that whole "us against the muslims" thing being carried out in iraq right now.

Yes, there are aspects of Islam that no one likes, the Sharia (Islamic law) tops that list. The problem here is - aaaah, you guessed it - religion.

Following the bible, yes, there ARE rules for stoning women, etc.. in there. Western societies just don't follow the bible anymore.

Why is that?
Well, there has been this (European, btw) thing called the Renaissance and with it came this idea of secularisation. IN modern societies, church and law are two things. (Or should be, but I don't want to make fun of the US again)

That, my friend is what one calls a good idea(tm)

Any society built on religion is doomed.
Religion is just too slow and inherently inflexible. Hey, it is God's word, right? So we can not change it, right? Please put your hand on this chopping block now, you stole.

Or in Christian terms:
Stone him, he worked on sunday!

So all the great advantages you mention were not made possible by Christianity, but by having religion thrown out of the court room.

BY the way, there are islamic countries who are taking the step towards a modern state, Turkey being one of them.
As Turkey is still a long way from being a good, great, just state, it still has left a lot of the religious bullshit behind it.

But then, I am talking against a wall again, as one can not argue with religion and it's followers.
::emp::

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emp

Hmm... Although we are on the same side as atheism is concerned here, you are dead wrong in at least one account.

Nazis have nothing to do with religion.

::emp::

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popeye

The US was founded upon Christian ideas and values. It has worked great for the last 200 or so years

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LazyHippy

The Nazis certainly were, a (distorted) version of Christianity was central to Hitler's beliefs. Both them and the KKK, like Al Queida, used religion as their reasoning for wanting to change the world.

You want something more recent? How about David Koresh? Or those who feel it is their Christian duty to post bombs to doctors who perform abortions?

Christian and Muslim extremism can easier be compared, but if you go back through history you'll find while both have been horrifically violent, the Christians have generally been had more resources, ensuring that their violence was more destructive.

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LazyHippy

Not a great argument man... If you want to define the US as Christian and US actions as Christian ones, I disagree but, two words....

Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

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emp

Actually, the German Nazi party wanted to abolish religion all together.
The Catholics were pursued, while the protestants agreed to work with the regime, so it was deemed alright.

A Hitler Youth marching song (Grunberger, A Social History) illustrates it:

<dl><dd>We follow not Christ, but Horst Wessel,</dd><dd> Away with incense and Holy Water, </dd><dd>The Church can go hang for all we care, </dd><dd>The Swastika brings salvation on Earth.
</dd></dl>

::emp::

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dragi

There is a huge difference between being killed because of your nationality/religion/color and being stoned to death because you married a guy you loved. no need to elaborate, is there?

Nationality/religion will be the cause of many crimes in the future, as it is today; we are not over it yet. There is a great progress in overcoming that (EU), but it will take time.

When I said, that the world of Islam is still in Middle Ages, I wasn't thinking about technical progress. I was talking about the level of freedom you enjoy as an individual human being. The position of women, your civil rights, influence of religion in daily politics, …

Yes, the Church is a big player in the politics of Christian countries, but just one of the players. You can say fuck Church, fuck religion, and have a normal life. Try that in Islamic country.

LazyHippy, you are presenting here some abstract picture of Islam that doesn't exist in the reality. KKK did some sick things, but the majority of people in the US are strongly against it. Nazis committed holocaust, but the rest of Christian world fought to stop them. And you said it, they are extremist groups. You are from UK. Tell me how many young Johnny boys died on the shores of Normandy?

Now tell me, is there anyone in Islam who is fighting against this shit we can see on the Internet?

LazyHippy

As you're in Germany I'll assume you know more than me! What's the deal with Positive Christianity then? Even so they certainly used religion as justification for some of their actions.

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stmadeveloper

Actually while the US was founded by those that were Christians for the most part we had the sense to add in religious protection for all and the separation of church and state.

The tenets of freedom and the protections in our constitution are what have worked for '200 or so' years.

Ohh - and unlike the bible and governments based on religion we can *(and have) amended our constitution to reflect the attitudes and needs of the people.

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LazyHippy

I'm not a Muslim, so not best placed to answer this, but I know for a fact that only a tiny percentage of Muslims are extremists - same as Christians and other religions.

Regarding Muslim countries, yes it's wrong the lack of human rights, but it's not confined to just Muslim countries. Look at what Robert Mugabe (a Christian) is doing, some of it (such as persecution of homosexuals) in the name of Christ.

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Supergeek

As for "recently"... I've been atheist/agnostic for over 20 years...

xecutech

Wow, I was gone 45 minutes and this thread has grown!
Again, you are comparing people who do things in the name of religion, and then implecating everyone else in with them. A real Christian, one who follows the teaching of Jesus, does not murder. Someone mentioned stoning, and even Jesus pointed out that people who commit sin shouldn't be another's judge, so no one can be over another as we are all sinners. Also, in the new testament you don't hear much more about stonings, except to kill Christians.

Supergeek

That "In God we trust" stuff on the money and "under God" in the Pledge of Allegiance was added later. If you think our nation was founded by a bunch of faithful Christians, think again:

Say nothing of my religion. It is known to my god and myself alone.
-- Thomas Jefferson, in a letter to John Adams

I am of a sect by myself, as far as I know.
-- Thomas Jefferson, letter to Ezra Stiles Ely

Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson

What all agree upon is probably right; what no two agree in most probably is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson, Jefferson's Axiom, in a letter to John Adams

And let us reflect that, having banished from our land that religious intolerance under which mankind so long bled and suffered, we have yet gained little if we countenance a political intolerance as despotic, as wicked, and capable of as bitter and bloody persecutions.... error of opinion may be tolerated where reason is left free to combat it.... I deem the essential principles of our government.... Equal and exact justice to all men, of whatever state or persuasion, religious or political; ... freedom of religion, freedom of the press, and freedom of person under the protection of the habeas corpus, and trial by juries impartially selected.
-- Thomas Jefferson, First Inaugural Address, March 4, 1801

The legitimate powers of government extend to such acts only as are injurious to others. But it does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods, or no god. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg.
-- Thomas Jefferson, Notes on the State of Virginia

Millions of innocent men, women, and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined, and imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch toward uniformity. What has been the effect of coercion? To make one-half the world fools and the other half hypocrites. To support roguery and error all over the earth.
-- Thomas Jefferson, Notes on the State of Virginia

If I could conceive that the general government might ever be so administered as to render the liberty of conscience insecure, I beg you will be persuaded, that no one would be more zealous than myself to establish effectual barriers against the horrors of spiritual tyranny, and every species of religious persecution.
-- George Washington, letter to the United Baptist Chamber of Virginia

"Sir, Washington was a Deist."
-- The Reverend Doctor James Abercrombie

"I have diligently perused every line that Washington ever gave to the public, and I do not find one expression in which he pledges, himself as a believer in Christianity. I think anyone who will candidly do as I have done, will come to the conclusion that he was a Deist and nothing more."
-- The Reverend Bird Wilson, an Episcopal minister in Albany, New York, in an interview with Mr. Robert Dale Owen written on November 13, 1831, which was publlshed in New York two weeks later, quoted from Franklin Steiner, The Religious Beliefs of Our Presidents, pp. 27

I have found Christian dogma unintelligible. Early in life I absented myself from Christian assemblies.
-- Benjamin Franklin

Lighthouses are more helpful than churches.
-- Benjamin Franklin

The question before the human race is, whether the God of nature shall govern the world by his own laws, or whether priests and kings shall rule it by fictitious miracles?
-- John Adams, letter to Thomas Jefferson, June 20, 1815

As I understand the Christian religion, it was, and is, a revelation. But how has it happened that millions of fables, tales, legends, have been blended with both Jewish and Christian revelation that have made them the most bloody religion that ever existed?
-- John Adams, letter to FA Van der Kamp, December 27, 1816

When philosophic reason is clear and certain by intuition or necessary induction, no subsequent revelation supported by prophecies or miracles can supersede it.
-- John Adams

Cabalistic Christianity, which is Catholic Christianity, and which has prevailed for 1,500 years, has received a mortal wound, of which the monster must finally die. Yet so strong is his constitution, that he may endure for centuries before he expires.
-- John Adams, letter to Thomas Jefferson, July 16, 1814

Let the human mind loose. It must be loose. It will be loose. Superstition and dogmatism cannot confine it.
-- John Adams, letter to his son, John Quincy Adams

Supergeek

Some more fun quotes:

"The very first act of the new Bush administration was to have a Protestant Evangelist minister officially dedicate the inauguration to Jesus Christ, whom he declared to be 'our savior.' Invoking 'the Father, the Son, the Lord Jesus Christ' and 'the Holy Spirit,' Billy Graham's son, the man selected by President George W Bush to bless his presidency, excluded the tens of millions of Americans who are Muslims, Jews, Buddhists, Shintoists, Unitarians, agnostics, and atheists from his blessing by his particularistic and parochial language.
"The plain message conveyed by the new administration is that George W Bush's America is a Christian nation and that non-Christians are welcome into the tent so long as they agree to accept their status as a tolerated minority rather than as fully equal citizens. In effect, Bush is saying: 'This is our home, and in our home we pray to Jesus as our savior. If you want to be a guest in our home, you must accept the way we pray.'"
-- Alan M Dershowitz, in "Bush Starts Off by Defying the the Constitution," Los Angeles Times, January 24, 2001


I appreciate that question because I, in the state of Texas, had heard a lot of discussion about a faith-based initiative eroding the important bridge between church and state.
-- George W Bush, proving that he has it backwards: it's a "wall" separating religion from government, not a "bridge" joining the two, January 29, 2001, quoted from Jacob Weinberg, "The Complete Bushisms"

There ought to be limits to freedom.
-- George W Bush, complaining about a website (Index of /) critical of him, at an Austin Press Conference, May 21, 1999, quoted from Index of / and the Democratic Alliance, "Yes, They Really Said It!"

xecutech

So, do you think none of them were Christian? Christianity didn't play a role in the beginning of our nation? Again, your taking quotes from a few and trying to use that to group everyone in agreement. Also, at what point in their lives were these quotes made? Do you think they ever changed their minds later in life?
I would hate if everything I quoted about God and church in my past would be used to judge who I am today. I was at one time an atheist, so I said some pretty bad things that I have grown to regret saying. Even my wife reminds me of the things I said to her when she started believing in God.

xecutech

Was Bush the first and only Christian president?
Was he the first and only to be sworn in with a religious ceremony?

Are we having a discussion on relgion, or do you want to make this a right and left argument? Seriously, it always comes down to this argument. I am Christian and I don't condone George Bush's actions, so how does this have anything to do with the discussion?

popeye

Yes you can name several Christians individuals that act like fools and spread hatred but I can name several NATIONS of millions of people that on the average will "spill your blood" in the name of Allah.

EDIT: You mentioned the a-bomb for some reason. Wow..ask your grandparents (who probably was one of the bravest British generations to ever live) what would have happened if the allies wouldnt have done whatever necessary to totally defeat the axis.

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xecutech

I think we have gotten off the original subject, and it's starting to get into finger pointing instead of a discussion...

Supergeek

The founding of America by "Christians" was brought up by someone in this thread. I have listed quotes from 4 of the most influential people of this country, including the author of the Declaration of Independence, to illustrate that Christianity should not be equated with America. And in fact, atheism, agnosticism, and deism were more prevalent.

The George Bush quotes illustrate that our religious freedoms are in jeopardy, and yet he still gets reelected because the Christian majority in this country make it so (or perhaps some jiggery-pokery with the ballots). The balance is out of whack. It needs to be corrected; the changing of the guard can't happen too fast for me.

I am usually very apolitical; the choice is usually a douche or a turd sandwich. But in this case, it's worse than usual. Atheists and agnostics and Muslims are third-class citizens in this country, and anything other than a Christian is at best a second-class citizen.

The whole thing with people supporting "under God" in the pledge of allegiance; where the fuck is my separation of church and state you assholes (the ones in the government who made God a part of our money and pledge)? I don't care what your religion is, DON'T tell me what I need to believe to be a good American.

Supergeek

Oh yeah, and this post was originally just a damn joke. Can we just end it? We have three religious-themed threads on here.

LazyHippy

FFS. I'm going to leave this one as it's giving off the wrong idea. My point is that all religions have their extremists and I would argue that Christian extremists have done more harm than any other. (Throughout history and recently, if you include good old Dubya.)

If America hadn't used atomic weapons then millions of people would not have died, millions more would not be still suffering the effects. The war in Europe was over and Japan was ready to surrender. It was a political decision to use the most horrific weapon ever used aggressively in the history of mankind and a decision not supported by all of the allied nations.

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xecutech

So, now we have resorted to name calling? Assholes? You don't think Christians get perscuted in our own country? Where is my freedoms? Instead of whining about God's name on a coin or in a pledge, we need to stop being distracted at more serious issues like racism, children getting raped and people starving on our streets while we run around the globe to help others instead.

I am bowing out, as I am not here to argue with anyone. I had hoped we could have continued this as a discussion. Now it's political and I am an asshole...

Supergeek

Misread much? I tried to make it as specific as possible just so someone wouldn't take it like you did.
Unless you were personally responsible for watering down the separation of church and state, then my statement holds.

xecutech

I agree with you on seperation of church and state, but I also have religious freedoms, that seem to be getting ignored. The church and state debate is that our country will not establish a religion, it never said it wouldn't allow religion. I think our country has done good to allow other religions, hell why do you think everyone wants to come here?

I would rather have conversation than an argument thats all. I didn't come here to make enemies, nor would I want my character to be judged on my religion. Better yet, forget that I am a Christian and lets just contnue to be freinds. I think all of us are here to make money, at least thats why I am here.

Supergeek

Commendable attitude. I want to make money, too, but I also like having conversations and debates with intelligent people, and the majority of folks on this board seem to be pretty sharp.

My point was, government leaders who hold these combination political and religious ceremonies citing specific religious figures like Jesus Christ are endorsing a specific religion to the country, and to the world. Money that says "In God We Trust" is religious endorsement by the government. When our national Pledge of Allegiance says "under God", it does the same thing. When a president goes on television and says he prayed and God told him to do something, that scares the shit out of me.

Anyway, I think most of us have a lot of common ground here, and we've about talked out this subject. We're not going to resolve the differences between religious and areligious factions here, so I'll end my participation in this thread on a positive note.

xecutech

Well, I have enjoyed speaking with you on the subject, this has been fun. Hopefully we can do some business or help each other in another part of the forum in the near future.

emp

Yes, but the churches were used, they were never part of "the big plan".

::emp::

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bubbles

Without reading this thread at all, here is a forward sent to me by my mother.

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turbolapp

Yep those are the ones I get almost daily (got two today)

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Workflowy Best Free Organizational App. Period.

xecutech

Do you not have anti-spam software, not that it works anyway, but we all get email we don't want.
I got an email for viagra this morning asking if I wanted a bigger penis. I replied and told them I don't, but maybe my wife does!

LazyHippy

cold-cocked?? ??

Sounds like post traumatic stress disorder.

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xecutech

Or a skinny dipping eskimo!

Ok, I am done... got to get ready to watch football and eat dinner.

Supergeek

Ok somebody signed me up for a Living Scripture mailing list. Own up.

droplister

Any I would just like to add...

Netphase

Importance of Religion vs IQ

xecutech

Hmmm, I must be really stupid. Thanks for this graph to affirm it to me.
Seriously, I thought we had finished this already.

DaveEMG

For whatever it's worth, yes, there is a correlation. There is a higher preponderance of atheism among the higher educated population. Got a PhD? Odds are you're an atheist.

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"If you ain't first you're last..." ... "Oh hell, Son, I was high that day. That doesn't make any sense at all, you can be second, third, fourth... hell you can even be fifth."

DaveEMG

Not trying to be a douchebag here, but how can you judge "IQ" by borders? I'm assuming that the red outlined one is the US... But... Seriously here... IQ is an "intelligence quotient", a measure of sheer intellect. Are we saying that there are countries full of idiots and other countries full of smart people?

I was always under the impression intelligence was a global average. One of the reasons why we've got like Indian neurosurgeons helping us troubleshoot our laptops over the phone.

Don't get me wrong, I am certain there are countries full of highly uneducated people, but I'd still believe the average amount of smarts is universal.

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"If you ain't first you're last..." ... "Oh hell, Son, I was high that day. That doesn't make any sense at all, you can be second, third, fourth... hell you can even be fifth."

turbolapp

@ the last four posts: It's not really fair to post a graph and not site your source so that we can look into a little more. Where did this data come from? How large was the sample size? How was religion measured "as important", by self survey?

This is a common hypothesis and there just needs to be a little more display of the supporting evidence before jumping to conclusions.

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Workflowy Best Free Organizational App. Period.

LazyHippy

I agree. It does seem logical, but I would love to see more evidence.

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ThraXed

I dare you to shut the fuck up.

BradM

Leave it to someone to start name-calling.

There's no proof God exists, and there is no proof he doesn't.

I simply choose to not believe based on my own personal moral codes. If a religious person doesn't like it, that's his prerogative.

I refuse to live in fear.

xecutech

ooooooh, someone hit a nerve with thraxed?!

Well, just replying in a friendly way, as I have decided that I have wasted enough thime in this thread, but I don't live in fear at all. I think alot of people feel religion is living in fear, but I fear the same thing anyone else does, dying. Even though I believe there is an afterlife, I am in no hurry to get there. Maybe I am being selfish, but I have kids I would love to see grow and I have alot of living left to do myself.

I think the reason alot of people think people who go to church have to live in fear is from bad churches! The sad truth is that there are alot of bad churches that have given religion a bad name, and across all denominations. I go to a non-denominational church, so maybe thats why I feel this way. I wear jeans to church, we have modern music and I have alot of friends there.

I don't share alot of the same views as most "Christians". I think pot should be legalized, but I don't smoke pot, anymore. I have an occasional drink, smoke alot of expensive cigars and I still like to check out the ladies... even some of the ones at church, but I am married, so I only look!

Either way, it's not my place to try to convince anyone to believe in God. I can only offer it and/or answer questions, but at the end of the day it's always a personal choice. So, I hope no one here felt I was trying to push Jesus on anyone, as I am only here discussing the subject. I didn't come here to make enemies and maybe I can learn something from some of you.

turbolapp

There are alot of bitter people in this thread.

On a completely different note, I am in Mexico right now, drinking a margarita before we hit the town. So I just wanted to say hola amigos and buenos noches (I have no idea if I'm saying or spelling that right) Catch ya'll on the flip side.

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Workflowy Best Free Organizational App. Period.

LazyHippy

In Mexico, about to go out and party.. yet you still make time for WickedFire?!

Have a good one!

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