surfmale

Hi All,

Another dark day for humanity this makes me so sick after only 24 seconds The so called trained police kill a man in cold blood. At the Vancouver
International airport. Deeply sad for the famly of Dziekanski.
Godbless.

what could they be thinking in 24 seconds.

Shame on Canada's pride and joy RCMP

http://blog.wired.com/wiredscience/2...ies-after.html

http://youtube.com/watch?v=K6nx0Cx3uMk&feature=related

m0rtal

Yeah it's fuckin disgusting. 4 cops couldn't detain him without using a taser? Give me a fuckin break he wasn't even fighting back. Even if he was and 4 RCMP officers can't detain him they shouldn't be cops to begin with. On top of that apparently they are supposed to use pepper spray and their night sticks BEFORE even considering tasering someone.

barman

RIP my polish brothen

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Demon

Feel it for the pole, he must have been incredibly pissed off at having to wait around at the airport with no contact and no one to speak to for all that time.

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emp

The problem lies in the promise that Tasers are "non-lethal" and "a good way to control someone".

Since when is causing pain to another human being considered a good thing(tm)?

::emp::

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Icecube

yeah I heard today that tasers have killed several people this year, I am absolutely not sure but maybe 24?

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juiceman22

Don't fuck with cops and they won't fuck with you, how hard is that to understand. When people get that concept through their thick skulls these stories will not happen.

akk0

Tasers are a better way to control someone than rushing him and throwing him to the ground. He probably would've fought considering how pissed off he was, endangering not only himself but the cops as well. Things like this happen, but they happen very rarely. I'm wondering anyway what he was trying to accomplish by throwing around chairs.

carmach

Watch this and then say that again:
Breitbart.tv » Raw: Teen’s Dashcam Catches Cop Threatening False Charges Against Him

emp

Yeah...

Just OBEY. Do WHATEVER they say. It is for your best. OBEY and CONSUME, unit. Authorities are there because GOD wanted them to be. Be good and tame, citizen.

Jeezus motherfucking christ on a crutch. The spoon they used to scrape out your brain didn't even have to be washed afterwards.

::emp::

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Phre0nBurn

God damn. That's fucked.
Am I the only one that understands that sometimes in life you just need to yell and break shit? For fucks sake. We don't know what he was pissed off about yet, but people get pissed off, it's human nature. When they approached him he put his arms up at shoulder level and tried walking away. He wasn't much of a threat, then they zapped him, and then he got pissed, as ANY OF YOU would... No matter how right or wrong you are, when someone hurts you, you're gonna get pissed... I've been pepper sprayed twice, (not by police or females), and let me tell you, it makes you fucking ANGRY...

There is nothing in our human nature that says "He has a badge, it's ok if he hurts you". That's bullshit. Cops are people, and as such, they dont always know what is right or best for everyone else, they are just given authority to do so.

I hate this kind of shit... And yea, I understand that people shouldnt get all nuts in public around people, but seriously... It happens. Shit, I broke my own computer just the other day, because it was a POS and it kept freezing...

It's better than therapy.

emp

On a more calm note.

Even if he was upset and angry, 4 cops should be able to de-escalate a situation a bit.
The guy did not even talk English and they start tasering after mere 24secs?

Time a normal conversation. 24 secs is barely enough for the small talk at the beginning.

And "non-lethal" does not mean "fun for the whole family". There is a reason these things are in the media. For related reading, please refer to Amnesty International

USA: Renewed call for suspension as taser-related deaths pass 150 mark - news.amnesty - Amnesty International
http://www.amnestyusa.org/document.p...NGAMR510302006
USA: Excessive and lethal force? Amnesty International's concerns about deaths and ill-treatment involving police use of tasers - Amnesty International

Amnesty International US is renewing its pledge to get rid of tasers in the police force. One of the reasons being that in 5 years, more than 150 people have died.

Non-lethal.

::emp::

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juiceman22

No you're absolutely right, don't obey, instead we should all go to the airport to fight with the RCMP (Canada's feds by the way these guys aren't your average cop) and throw tables at them. Anyone that retarded is asking for it.

emp

There is a distinction between erratic, violent behaviour and blind obedience.

The guy was throwing chairs after they kept him locked in an airport for 10 hours. And he did NOT throw anything at the officers.

After 10 hours, I would be yelling and screaming in frustration as well.

And then yelling and shaking...

::emp::

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Phre0nBurn

emp -

I couldn't have said it better.

Phre0nBurn

Just listened to some of the new info on a talk station I listen to...

The guy had spent all day going through the airport, and then once he got to the airport, he had to deal with customs because it was an international flight. Thats why he was so frustrated...

To top it all off, his mother lived in BC, and had saved money for 7 years to move her only son (the "suspect") to BC with her. She was in another part of the airport, waiting for him. He wanted to get passed through so he could see her, and get the hell out of the airport.

juiceman22

Man you guys wouldn't last a day as a cop.

"We have a crazed man here screaming and throwing tables at us. But maybe he's just had a bad day? Everyone has bad days. What's this, he's now pulled a knife out. No don't pull our your weapons, you might scare the poor man! Maybe it isn't a knife, maybe he's just pointing a pen at us? Uh oh, he's running towards us, don't use your baton you don't want to cause any unnecessary harm to the poor frustrated man. Uh oh he just killed my partner! What should I do? Well I better make sure I protect his rights, that comes first!"

emp

Again, he did not throw ANYTHING at the police officers.

Yes he threw chairs way before... in the video, he is not throwing anything.
He is clearly agitated, but people are trying to call him down and seem to succeed.
Then the heroes...err arrive.
They talk to him, maybe he is yelling (we can't see nor hear in the video), but he is clearly not attacking anyone.

You can even see him holding up his hands and going in the direction the police officers are pointing him at.

Then they taser him. And they keep the finger on the fucking trigger.

<object width="425" height="355"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/qHKk5qQRzL4&rel=1"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/qHKk5qQRzL4&rel=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="355"></embed></object>

Once again, please get that "tasers are non-lethal" shit industry myth out of your head. 30 deaths by tazer a year in the US alone.

Also don't come at me with "it's less bad than rushing at someone" because the cops STILL rush at him an pin him to the ground with 4 people.

Now, I am FAR, far away from being a cop basher, but power has to be kept in check. Something like this is inexcusable.

::emp::

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emp

Obviously, code is not my friend today.

But here is something purely democratic and purely American for you.

Civil Disobedience (Thoreau - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia)

This was part of my American education .. given to us by a very good teacher in American Literature.

Edit:
To prevent your head from exploding...
::emp::

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juiceman22

How hard is it to understand that they don't have the ability to replay and scrutinize a scene as it is happening, that they only have seconds to react to what they see? It's easy for everyone to say now that "oh he wasn't threatening, he put his arms up look if we reverse and play it in slow motion you can see his hands going up in the air. Police brutality I say!"

m0rtal

Stop being so hard headed. If they were too pussy to restrain him without tasering him they shouldn't be cops to begin with. For the sake of the argument let's now say they needed to use force because he was being aggressive towards them. Is this what they are trained to do? NO. They are supposed to either use pepper spray or their sticks before they even get to the taser. Did that happen? No. So did they carry out their duties as they were trained to do? No. They might as well have shot the guy.

I wonder if you would be reacting the same way had this been YOUR family member. Would you let it go?

Would you say oh my son or daughter or mother or father were being aggressive it's ok they tasered them and they died?

Phre0nBurn

Just to clarify, I didn't slow the video down, I didn't rewind, and I have only watched it 1 time.

Still, I found myself saying in my head "What the fuck are they tasing him for? He just lifted his hands and showed he had no weapons, he didnt fucking fight them"

No slow motion needed to see what's really going on here...

surfmale

Hi all,

Thanks for sharing your thoughts, please note that this tread is not meant to Bash the man and woman of the police force. Nor for anyone to do anything stupid, when I wrote this was very upset and still am however things of this nature should not go by without consequences and i truly hope that Justice is served in this case of true curtly and brutality to humanity as a hole. As a Canadian living in Vancouver feel deep shame. True sadness for family and people of Poland. I also think for starters our Prime minster should make a public apology, and demand the chief of the RCMP
resign, and all involved brought to criminal justice
And that the Goverment and people of Canada not allow the Goverment
to cover this up by allowing former head RCMP do the Autopsy would
truly be a outrage and cover up.


I found a link for condolences,

Please use the link below to share your memories or express condolences if you so choose

to the family

http://www.legacy.com/CAN-Vancouver/...sonID=98084671


Godbless.

LazyHippy

It's not a million miles away from the Brazilian electrician 'terrorist' that got shot on the London underground... no-one accountable for that either...

The Police Officers are as guilty as the soldiers killing innocent Iraqis and Afghanis (Whichever way you see it... but remember, most Nazi soldiers where just following orders too.)

Give it a few years and we won't even be able to talk about this shit.

Peace and love to the family of the victims.

__________________

juiceman22

None of my family is stupid enough to fight with federal officers at an airport. If they did, I wouldn't be surprised if they got a beat down or tasered/sprayed. The death was an accident, their intention was not to kill the man but to control him, but of course the liberal lefties want to blow it up into some huge scandal about how the police are evil brutes.

Phre0nBurn

Good point.

When I go out tonight all trashed out of my mind, my goal will be to go to a club. Completely harmless.

The children I run down on the way shouldn't have been playing near a street at night.

I like how you look at things.

Demon

You're one of those annoying right wingers who blames everything on this magical monolithic bloc of people known as 'the liberal lefties'. Give up the bullshit and try and think before you adopt a conservative or liberal stance, otherwise you're a fucking ignorant fuck like the rest of them.

The man had never set foot in Canada before and had no prior knowledge of what the fuck was going to happen or who the fuck these people were. He was, and quite rightly so, frustrated out of his mind. When you've spent 10 hours in some small shitty Canadian airport with no one making an effort to get your voice heard, it is no damn suprise you're going to be throwing shit around. Fuck, instead of tazing the guy like a bunch of dickheads they should have just got a fucking translator, he wasn't threatening anyone. And how can you expect anyone, especially a complete foreigner, to be knowledgable about these type of things which you should or should not do? If you were to arrive in Poland with no one who could understand you, you would also have a chance fucking things up when an average Polish bystander who knows how shit goes in Poland would go 'why doesn't he get it?'

Juiceman, change your fucking attitude.

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oogie1947

Eliminate tasers and go back to beating the shit out of them with batons! How many deaths by night sticks have been recorded per year before tasers?

juiceman22

I see more ignorance in judging cops or anyone else by the information YOU have now after the fact, which is much different than they had at the time with very little time to react and an airport full of people to protect. Policing is not perfect, unfortunately they do not have ESP - if they see a screaming crazed man throwing things, it is a threat, plain and fucking simple. It doesn't matter if he's tired or frustrated or whatever, they are not fucking Dr. Phil they are RCMP and job is to neutralize the situation and prevent any damage.

And it doesn't matter if he's a foreigner and can't speak the language - first of all how the fuck did he expect to travel alone in Canada if he can't speak a lick of English? Mistake number 1. Big whopping mistake number 2 is deciding to go on a little tantrum at federal officers at the airport. If I am in a foreign country I do not do that, hopefully now people will realize that having a one-man riot at the airport might not be the best of ideas. Try pulling that shit in say Vietnam and let's see how nice they treat you.

emp

God you are a dickhead... let me take this apart one by one:
(Emphasis of passages in the quote are mine)

Little Time - Yeah, it took them 24 seconds to begin tasering the guy.

Airport full of people to protect - There is NO ONE in the area they kept him in. He has no weapons of mass destruction on him and he is not even threatening the police officers.

It doesn't matter he is tired and frustrated - Buzzz...Wrong. We are all human it does matter. But yeah, if the cops come out saying they were tired and frustrated because of something happening earlier that day, you'll take that as an excuse.

Neutralize the situation and prevent any damage - aaaahhh, Just to let it sink in, here are your words again with another emphasis by me:
Neutralize the situation and prevent any damage
Pure gold - thank you, sir.

Doesn't matter he does not speak the language - It does matter. I help so many tourists in my country, it is unbelievable. Often, these people are lost on the smallest things, let alone being detained at an airport for reasons they do not understand.


...

and on and on...

Sorry, I am getting tired of this bull. I'll just make sure and laugh long and load the second someone American or Canadian is tasered to death at a foreign airport.

::emp::

PS: I probably will not. Laugh at someone being tasered, that is. TAsers have to be recognised as the dangerous weapons they are.

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juiceman22

Dickhead? Thanks.

About the cops, as far as I'm concerned they did neutralize and protect. The instigator, the aggressor, was contained and did not harm any innocent people around him. How can you say he would not have done anything further if the cops did not control him? It's called prevention. They don't have time to sit back and contemplate the life story of a person who is threatening the safety of innocent people.

I support the RCMP and their actions. They did what they were supposed to do - the tragedy was the fault of the taser. They need to find a more safe and reliable tool to use in these situations.

Phre0nBurn

Maybe an international airport should have some bi-lingual staff on hand to cover the languages that come in?
Then they could understand whats going on a little better. Instead of just assuming they know whats best.

The big issue here, in my eyes anyways, is that the police, the majority of them, jump into a situation, and go 'Ok I have to take care of this asshole. It's my job'

Instead of trying to better understand the situation, and what's going on. For all those cops knew, someone at the airport could have just raped the dude in the ass with a broom. They could have told him they were going to kill his mother.
While this is very unlikely, my point is, a multitude of things could have been upsetting him, and to just assume that anyone irate or angry about something is a threat to all humankind is just pure ignorance.

I don't think it would be alright to assault someone because they were just stabbed or shot, and are now completely irate.
They would be understandably pissed the hell off.

Instead of acting like robots, maybe they should be trained to act more like humans, and try to better understand a situation, instead of treating every single situation like it is world-threatening.

I myself blame the police for this. They carry guns, they carry batons, those could both kill as well.

To say that they did what they were supposed to do, is like saying they should just beat the fuck out of every angry person on earth, and ask questions later.

It is dumb ignorance like this that will continue to destroy people of all walks of life.

"Violence is the first refuge of the incompetent." Isaac Asimov

Demon

Electro Magnetic Pulse WTF happened to your forum status!?

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Drake

They had ten hours. How hard is it to get him to point to a map or write something down and figure out what country he is from and go get a translator, anyone... A fucking student or professor or something. Vancouver is a big city.

Fucking go to Babel fish and type something. Let him type something... Fucking easy...

I was there in Vancouver a few years ago and the customs guy was hassling me too, I think I was a bit too casual for him.

emp

(Emphasis mine)
I still do not agree with you.

Yes, we need to find a safer tool, but still, we also need to hold people responsible for using a taser after 24 seconds.

I think looking at the tool is important, but only secondary here. Taser incidents seem so ...strange... because the tool removes the obvious violence.
If those cops would've whipped out their batons and clubbed him to death, the outcry would be far more pronounced, and probably even you would not applaud them for it.

::emp::
Edit: I apologize for the dickhead. I got carried away. Sorry for that.

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emp

@demon.

I fuxored it up when I entered a witty slogan in my user profile. No clue how to get the badge back, still got the title.

::emp::

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springer

Unfortunately, it all comes down to a lack of training and experience. I hate to say that but, it's true. Why, in an international airport, aren't ALL the employees aware that a translation service is available and know how to use it? Is there anyone there who does not get it that there will be people entering the airport who do not apeak canadianese?

Shame on the inexperienced young RCMP cops for escalating the situation, as well. It could have and should have been handled a lot differently. The airport security people watched this guy for a while and just stood around, talking on their walkie-talkies, feeling important. Good for them... they need to be promoted to baggage handlers.

I really dislike seeing all these young cops dressed like they are... not just in this video but everywhere... body armor on the outside of their shirts, boots, leather gloves, belts that look like Batmans tool belt, etc. They have testosterone levels that would kill a normal person. All that intimidation crap only increases their feelings of invincibility.

They're given all these "tools" to do their job and, granted, they receive training but, that does NOT equal life experience or common sense. Many of them are fresh out of college when they enter law enforcement and have no clue about human nature and absolutely zero life experience.

I say shame on everyone involved, from the airport people all the way up to whomever commands the RCMP. It's a blight on all of humanity that this happens in an apparently civilized society. I'll be rethinking my next visit to Canada until I learn to speak canadianese.

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emp

Thinking about this, I have to say it strikes me as sad, when police officers are applauded for using violence so easily.

( and a Taser is violence, make no mistake about that )

Police officers have tons of authority and power imbided by them with their office and status. Yes, it might be fitting to tread lightly sometimes.

I have bounced at a few clubs (helping friends of mine out), been in the middle of fights breaking them up, etc...

Even with drunk, disorderly, yelling, upset people I did never have to use anything more than a few shoves and pushes. And I did not have a few years of police training.

That the guy died might be just a detail of the story. Sad, but a detail.
For me, even if he would not have died, that was excessive use of force.

What is bad about this is that it is policemen who did this. No untrained civilian, but 4 trained police officers who, as was alluded earlier, belong to some kind of "special" task force.

::emp::

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juiceman22

When cops are faced with a hostile situation, it really comes down to who has to take the risk. They can be careful not to cause any unecessary harm, only using whatever force necessary, possibly risking getting themselves stabbed, punched, poked with a needle or whatever else. Or they can ensure their own safety with greater force to contain the hostile person, with the added risk to the other person that they might be hurt.

So either way, somebody is at risk, and somebody might get hurt. Now why the hell would anyone support that the cops should be at risk in the confrontation, and to protect the aggressor?? Does this make any sense? So the cops, the people out there to protect you, should bear the risk of injury, and the hostile attacker should have their safety ensured? I just can't understand that viewpoint. (I know here the guy would not quite be considered a hostile attacker, but he seemed enough of a threat to need controlling). But the media will only show brutal officers attacking an innocent man, not the other side of the story, because that's more shocking and controversial.

emp

The guy would not quite be considered the hostile attacker,..

My point exactly.

::emp::

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springer

The guy wasn't an immediate threat to anyone, he was contained and not going anywhere. The place where he was, was not crowded and he wasn't threatening other people... he wasn't even coming near the other people you could see in the video. I didn't see where he even caused any damage to any property. He was just angry and confused and, according to the video, not really non-compliant.

Even if he had been overtly non-compliant and posed a threat, (which I don't believe he did) 4 buff looking young cops should have been able to control him with manual restraint techniques. Instead, one of them went straight to the Tazer. They had all the time in the world to deal with this guy but chose to end it by using more force than was necessary.

Bad move, I think, because I'll wager Canadian LE probably uses the same or similar use of force continuum as US police departments. That use of force continuum teaches not only how to properly escalate an encounter but how to properly deescalate one. You can rightfully go one step above the force the bad guy is using, unless something instantly and drastically changes, then you can go straight to deadly force... as long as you can justify it afterwards.

Maybe I missed something but I never saw any of the officers attempt to deescalate the situation by trying to communicate with the man. All I saw was them surround him and moments later he was on the floor, writhing. Then, when there appeared to be a problem with the guys health, everyone just stood around. No one appeared to be attempting to give the guy any help.

Unfortunately, the man died. 4 young officers and likely some of the command staff will see their careers end (if not some jail time) and the RCMP as well as the airport and Canadian government will pay some hefty cash to the guys mother.

It all could have been avoided if, somewhere along the line, someone would have been willing to try to communicate with the guy... or find someone who could. Any dufus (even an FBI agent) should have recognized the guy didn't speak or understand English and could have started to try to figure out what language he did speak.

Sometimes, even if you can find someone who speaks another similar foreign language, but not the right one, it will help to calm the person and reassure them you're trying to help them. It buys time and helps to deescalate the situation.

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Phre0nBurn

Let me also point out that it appeared there were 2 airport security officers there as well...

I know I saw 1 for sure, I think a second one, but I'm not positive.

Thats 5-6 people. For one old guy.

I could understand if he was punching little babies, or running around naked covered in blood screaming about aliens.
But he wasn't.

surfmale

Exactly.

Will see how the media plays with the story this week.

Uzzz

this actually happened like a month ago....but the video was just recently released... its funny to see how they originally reported the news back then -
Man died after 4 Taser jolts, witness alleges

Notice the no mention of waiting in airport for 10 hours...

Richmond RCMP Sgt. Pierre Lemaitre said witnesses reported seeing the man sweating profusely and showing the whites of his eyes when he began violently tossing chairs and luggage inside the airport early Sunday.

Excited delirium is described as an agitated state, when a person experiences an irregular heartbeat and suddenly dies. It can happen to psychiatric patients and people using drugs such as cocaine.

Officers physically restrained Dziekanski and applied handcuffs, Lemaitre said.
"He was on his back, and being combative and still fighting. Even though he had received what they call pulses, two pulses from Taser, he was still out of control," Lemaitre told CBC Newsworld on Monday morning.

Lemaitre denied links between the Taser jolts and the man's death, saying deaths are often not directly related to the stun gun but rather caused by some pre-existing medical condition or drug use.


damn crack heads

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______________________________________________

emp

So much to the police.. here is the quote by the witness in the article (not the one who shot the video)

shrafinia said she never felt Dziekanski had been a threat.

And a lawyer: (of all things)Cameron Ward said police typically blame deaths on medical conditions, and the coroner's office often comes to the same conclusion.
"My feeling is they're being overused. They're being used on people who are in medical or emotional distress and often there are tragic consequences," said Ward.
Lemaitre said in an earlier interview that police considered using pepper spray but it would have affected other people in the airport. He also said officers decided against using batons to subdue the man because of how it would have looked to the public.
::emp::

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surfmale

Hi guys,

you know what makes me even mader, see on the top of my post

the video link thats for youtube tell me how bad this is.

The guy is down even think code red is called, howver on the right of the

bottom screen, go to 710 min see what the RCMP man is doing on the right.

if that's not criminal i dont know what is.


On the times at the right of your screen time should read 7:10/851

http://youtube.com/watch?v=K6nx0Cx3uMk&feature=related

LazyHippy

Maybe, just maybe the police should be trained to at least recognise different languages - especially if they are working at an international airport. Even if they had got an interpreter it wouldn't have helped as they seemed to think the guy was speaking Russian.

Canadians are often (understandably) pissed off at being mistaken for Americans, so you might expect them to make a tiny bit more effort than most.

__________________

Uzzz

well i think this works both ways .... if i'm going to a foreign country the first thing i'd learn how to say is ... i speak "english" ...or "polish" or whatever the hell u speak....then where is the bathroom..and where can i buy some crack

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emp

hmmm...

I just now thought of this.

The guy went through customs, right?
So how did they not know he was polish?

Also, passport is understood in almost any language... I have traveled europe, so I know that you can just try passport, passaporte, passporti, something will stick.

::emp::

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geoman11

yeah that sucks