Why would anyone on this forum be a democrat??

[popeye]

Obama has stated that anyone that makes over 100k will recieve a massive tax increase. How can any successfull IM support this?? That is unless you are a poser/wannabe.

Any successful business person will vote for anyone agaisnt the party of entitelment.
SAY NO TO TAKING YOUR MONEY AND GIVING IT TO THOSE THAT DON'T WANT TO WORK!!!!!

[xmcp123]

Originally Posted by popeye

Obama has stated that anyone that makes over 100k will recieve a massive tax increase. How can any successfull IM support this?? That is unless you are a poser/wannabe.

Any successful business person will vote for anyone agaisnt the party of entitelment.
SAY NO TO TAKING YOUR MONEY AND GIVING IT TO THOSE THAT DON'T WANT TO WORK!!!!!

Several reasons.

1. My Expenses are as Follows: Cigarettes, Food, Rent, a modest amount of inebriants, Red Bull. I don't really need as much as I make
2. It's insane that people in this country are starving. I can understand not wanting them rollin Cadillacs on 22s or what the fuck ever, but they should get to eat.
3. I have lived in some really nasty areas between high school and college. The people there were not lazy. In many cases they were uneducated, but rarely lazy. Some couldn't get transportation to a job as well. Welcome to Detroit btw, where our gangsters are too poor to buy bullets because there's no work.
4. Minimum wage is not even near what's necessary to live on, even working 50+ hour weeks. Those people work MUCH harder than me. Not smarter, but harder. Oh yeah, and they have to put on pants. I don't.
5. I refuse to punish someone's children because their mother is a lazy and/or stupid.
6. People with money buy shit. They sometimes buy my shit.

If you honestly believe most people on welfare or whatever are "not working", and not working by choice, you're an ignorant prick and need to get the hell out of your basement.

[losser]

xmcp123 - a wise man once said that anyone under 25 with a heart is a liberal. Anyone over 30 with a brain is a conservative. If I understand it correctly you are in college and a good guy so you are justified in your beliefs. I on the other hand am over 30 and would like the government to keep there hands off the money I make.
In all your arguments you have not answered 1 question - (asked in 3 parts LOL) how or why is it my responsibility to take care of someone else? Were was that written into our constitution? When did we become socialists? The reason we are the super power is the system we live by. With all our faults it is still better than what else is out there.

[erect]

I vote taxes ... PERIOD

That means I can never vote democrat, which is fine because I believe in taking responsibility for myself and my family, small government, states rights and am anti-war. Basically get the gov't out of my ass so I can make this country a better place. Now I must say, fighting a war overseas will cause our taxes to stay high even if we get McCain. So this election (like the last few) there really isn't a good candidate. Viva La Ron Paul!

XMCP, I'm very surprised to hear you say that. I've agreed with about everything else you've ever typed. Uhhh, I feel bad for the kids that grow up in the ghetto and all but this country is divided into 2 classes that do ok ... Rich and Poor. I'm all for giving the middle class all the breaks that we give the inner city population. I've got family and friends that work their ass off with a college degree and can't afford insurance and are still living off ramon noodles. On the other hand, I've got family on the wife's side pumping out kids living in section 8 (decent houses) and getting SSI checks, food stamps and free insurance ... all without working. Where's the fairness in that?

I'm personally for restitution for the descendants of slaves, but it's only in the form of education vouchers. Teach a brother how to fish, don't fucking feed them fish sticks their entire life and wonder why their still asking for a handout. Giving poverty stricken families money is just suppressing them for generations to come because there is no motivation or education pushing them to do better.

I'm also for population control (which helps the problem of welfare). If you are on state provided insurance, you're tubes get tied after your 1st child ... this is mandantory. I personally feel you should pay MORE taxes for each child you bring into the world, not get tax breaks. So if you can afford more kids because you earn decent money AND CAN PROVIDE FOR ALL OF THEM .. go for it. If I'm going to pay for your kids through my taxes ... fuck you, tie the tubes.

[Ben]

Because McCain will be wearing diapers soon.

[stmadeveloper]

Read this:
» U.S. Government –> We’ve come so far! Independent 08: The Politics The Presidential 2008 Campaign The Reality Show

Then tell me if you think you should still have taxes go towards welfare, or any other social program.

Then go listen to some Ron Paul - while he may not win the primary (read: won't) if enough people wake the hell up some things might slowly start changing before it's too late for my kids. (That I support by myself with no help from the state - dammit I just sent in checks for lunch and everything).

[Unarmed Gunman]

After what a wonderful job the Republicans have done - how could you want to keep them in power? This country is far worse shape than it was 8 years ago. Nobody can deny that. Why would you want more of the same?

I'm not an Obama or Hillary supporter, but I'm thinking they couldn't fuck things up as bad as Bush has.

BTW, I like how you say the democrats are gonna tax the shit out of you. You pay more in taxes under Bush than you did under Clinton...

As P.E. once said - Don't Believe The Hype!

[xmcp123]

Originally Posted by losser

xmcp123 - a wise man once said that anyone under 25 with a heart is a liberal. Anyone over 30 with a brain is a conservative. If I understand it correctly you are in college and a good guy so you are justified in your beliefs. I on the other hand am over 30 and would like the government to keep there hands off the money I make.
In all your arguments you have not answered 1 question - (asked in 3 parts LOL) how or why is it my responsibility to take care of someone else? Were was that written into our constitution? When did we become socialists? The reason we are the super power is the system we live by. With all our faults it is still better than what else is out there.

1)It's not technically I suppose. Which is why we have elections. To as a country decide if that's on our priorities.
2)We're not
3)A nice period of expansion was the period where unions and such came about. When we were getting more liberal. Granted, some(like UAW) are far too powerful nowadays.

Originally Posted by erect

I vote taxes ... PERIOD

That means I can never vote democrat, which is fine because I believe in taking responsibility for myself and my family, small government, states rights and am anti-war. Basically get the gov't out of my ass so I can make this country a better place. Now I must say, fighting a war overseas will cause our taxes to stay high even if we get McCain. So this election (like the last few) there really isn't a good candidate. Viva La Ron Paul!

For most everything, I agree with getting the government out of my ass.
Finances are really the only exception. And getting out of Iraq would probably provide enough extra rev for whatever the hell it is obama wants to do.

XMCP, I'm very surprised to hear you say that. I've agreed with about everything else you've ever typed. Uhhh, I feel bad for the kids that grow up in the ghetto and all but this country is divided into 2 classes that do ok ... Rich and Poor. I'm all for giving the middle class all the breaks that we give the inner city population. I've got family and friends that work their ass off with a college degree and can't afford insurance and are still living off ramon noodles. On the other hand, I've got family on the wife's side pumping out kids living in section 8 (decent houses) and getting SSI checks, food stamps and free insurance ... all without working. Where's the fairness in that?

Ok. Honestly, I think it absolutely sucks that that mom gets all that if she's not looking for work. But 99%+ ARE looking for work. And for the ones that aren't, I really really don't think their kids should have to suffer, not go to school, and get shitty medical care because their mom is a dumbass. Especially because that would probably throw their future kids into the same situation(no education/stability=fucked up adult)

I'm personally for restitution for the descendants of slaves, but it's only in the form of education vouchers. Teach a brother how to fish, don't fucking feed them fish sticks their entire life and wonder why their still asking for a handout. Giving poverty stricken families money is just suppressing them for generations to come because there is no motivation or education pushing them to do better.

I'm also for population control (which helps the problem of welfare). If you are on state provided insurance, you're tubes get tied after your 1st child ... this is mandantory. I personally feel you should pay MORE taxes for each child you bring into the world, not get tax breaks. So if you can afford more kids because you earn decent money AND CAN PROVIDE FOR ALL OF THEM .. go for it. If I'm going to pay for your kids through my taxes ... fuck you, tie the tubes.

I don't believe in reparations at all. But I'm not going to get into that one.
But getting the tubes tied? ehhh. How about one of those implants that act as birth control. That I can get behind. Less invasive/dangerous, I suspect cheaper, and temporary for when they get off welfare.

Once again, I'm not saying these guys should be rollin big. Just able to eat.

[Unarmed Gunman]

And quit with the socialist whining. Watch Sicko, and tell me what's so great about our health care system.

[aim]

XMCP I have to respectfully disagree with you, point by point:

Originally Posted by xmcp123

Several reasons.My Expenses are as Follows: Cigarettes, Food, Rent, a modest amount of inebriants, Red Bull. I don't really need as much as I make

First, congrats on being so successful at a young age.

Put yourself in someone elses shoes for a second. I have a mortgage, wife, kid, car payments, tons of monthly expenses, life insurance policies, not to mention the retirement fund since our government is pissing away social security. At this point when the government is taking 40% of your money, trust me, you'll have a problem too.

It's insane that people in this country are starving. I can understand not wanting them rollin Cadillacs on 22s or what the fuck ever, but they should get to eat.

I don't know anyone in this country who is starving that didn't want to be. It doesn't matter what State you live in; there are endless social / welfare / housing programs. NOBODY goes homeless or starving in this country who is willing to NOT be.

If this is a hard concept for anyone to understand, visit your local homeless shelter. You will be hard-pressed to find anyone that has actually worked hard in their life and ended up there. 90% are druggies / alcoholics / mentally disabled people - Nothing at all against these people, they need help, just a different kind of help.

I have lived in some really nasty areas between high school and college. The people there were not lazy. In many cases they were uneducated, but rarely lazy. Some couldn't get transportation to a job as well. Welcome to Detroit btw, where our gangsters are too poor to buy bullets because there's no work.

I grew up dirt-poor in a trailer park. Like, SUPER poor. The roof leaked when it rained. Utilities constantly got shut off, etc.

Looking back, I realized that my parents were irresponsible and bad with managing money. It wasn't that they were lazy - just extremely irresponsible, as I'm assuming you've witnessed in the places you've lived. We all make our own beds.

Minimum wage is not even near what's necessary to live on, even working 50+ hour weeks. Those people work MUCH harder than me. Not smarter, but harder. Oh yeah, and they have to put on pants. I don't.

Contrary to what our constitution or the bible or whatever says, we are not all create equal. Some of us are smarter / more intelligent / more capable than others. They may work 'harder' but try to teach them PHP, they will never, ever, EVER get it. It's just not comprehendable (is that a word?) to these people. Dont' feel bad for them. Just understand that, the cashier working at walmart MOST LIKELY isn't down on their luck... That's all they're really capable of.

I refuse to punish someone's children because their mother is a lazy and/or stupid.

This one I agree with you on 100%. While ultimately I am against universal health care, I DO agree that we need to take care of our youth. Especially from their dead beat parents.

People with money buy shit. They sometimes buy my shit.If you honestly believe most people on welfare or whatever are "not working", and not working by choice, you're an ignorant prick and need to get the hell out of your basement.

Prove yourself wrong. Go talk to some people on welfare. Find some hard evidence that they are not working, even though they want to. You won't find them. They are all losers / deadbeats / etc. Show me ONE example of someone who actually tried to make something of themselves, put forth a legitimate effort and didn't make it.

I'm not un-compassionate, I just have a very low tolerance for people who don't get up in the morning and try to better themselves.

And for what it's worth, I'm a libertarian, not a Republican.

[erect]

Originally Posted by xmcp123

For most everything, I agree with getting the government out of my ass.
Finances are really the only exception. And getting out of Iraq would probably provide enough extra rev for whatever the hell it is obama wants to do.

Getting out of Iraq gives us the ability to stop borrowing from China, which is a good start. We need to rid our generation of social security ... that's currently ~40% of our GDP. Keep funding for the old farts with our money because they were lied to and cheated. But be honest with us genxers, it's simply not going to be there and we shouldn't have to pay for our gov't funded retirement that won't exist.

But you want the gov't up our asses with finances??? Do you really think the way they fake budgeting and spend frivolously is going to get the country in better shape?

Give the taxes back to the people and let them donate how they see fit. You want to give money to poverty stricken families, cool. Many others will too. I'm personally going to set up free internet access and give those same kids a cpu. Again, teach to fish.

Originally Posted by xmcp123

But 99%+ ARE looking for work ... not go to school, and get shitty medical care ... throw their future kids into the same situation(no education/stability=fucked up adult)

99% is a bit high, perhaps 60-70% is closer, and I do feel for those people. Or maybe Detroit has some ambitious poor people that I've never experienced. Go live in Memphis for a bit and you'll get a glimpse of reality.

Shitty medical care is better than no medical care.

Breaking the chain is tough to do. Giving the handouts has not worked, time to figure something else out. And fucked up adults come from not being loved as a child, not anything that has to do with money, education & food. How can you really say that you love your child when you know you can't afford them and keep popping more out ... that's not love like republicans know it. Remember, Job #1 is to take care of yourself and your family.

Originally Posted by xmcp123

But getting the tubes tied? ehhh. How about one of those implants that act as birth control. That I can get behind. Less invasive/dangerous, I suspect cheaper, and temporary for when they get off welfare.

That's a whole different topic and I would wager that very few people in the country agrees with me on this one. That's ok, I still stand behind it. If you want kids that bad after getting your finances together, adopt. Love has nothing to do with genetics.

[kingfish]

I used to be a democrat but I can feel myself being pulled over to the dark side, the transformation will probably be complete by the time I'm 30

[Demon]

There is a funny thing called Parkinson's law. Basically, the more you make, the more you spend. 40% is a lot, but it will always be a lot for everyone. Even if you made 100 million a year, you would still be complaining about the 40%. What 60 million a year not enough for you?

I'm all for entrepreneurialism and free enterprise, but I'm also in favour of socialist values like free healthcare and financial support for those in need. And I'm tired of listening to people complain about taxes. Adapt your lifestyle damnit. Half the world is starving yet those lucky enough to be able to make money complain about taxes cutting down their income.

I'm not old or experienced in the sense of having a family to maintain, in fact I'm younger than xmcp, but I can tell you I couldn't care less about the wealthy, including those of us here who are making good money, getting slapped by taxes. If I was in power I would probably be damn unpopular as I would tax the shit out of people.

My only concern is where the taxpayers money goes. It sickens me to think that a huge proportion of our taxes have gone into dirty work such as the invasion and occupation of Iraq.

[erect]

Originally Posted by Demon

... I'm tired of listening to people complain about taxes. ... Half the world is starving yet those lucky enough to be able to make money complain about taxes cutting down their income ... I'm not old or experienced in the sense of having a family ...

We complain about taxes because those on the receiving end of the money piss it away. We have a right to complain ... and the last time we did we broke free from your country's oppression in the form of taxes. Turned out quite well if I may say.

The ability to make money has nothing to do with luck. It comes from hard work and perseverance, but not luck.

The last part is a given due to your above statements. You'll realize this one day when you have people that depend on you for food and you see all your money from January >> May gets pissed away by people that think it's important to fight a never ending war on drugs ... gimmieafuckingbreak

[xmcp123]

Originally Posted by aim

XMCP I have to respectfully disagree with you, point by point:



First, congrats on being so successful at a young age.

Put yourself in someone elses shoes for a second. I have a mortgage, wife, kid, car payments, tons of monthly expenses, life insurance policies, not to mention the retirement fund since our government is pissing away social security. At this point when the government is taking 40% of your money, trust me, you'll have a problem too.

I can understand that. I've run the numbers. And I know it's not easy, but I'm saying it may be necessary. Not taxing us to hell necessarilly, but to provide these people with something. If I had my say in it, I'd cut the hell out of the war on drugs, and the military. Emphasis on the random ass pentagon projects that spend so much more than they're worth.

I don't know anyone in this country who is starving that didn't want to be. It doesn't matter what State you live in; there are endless social / welfare / housing programs. NOBODY goes homeless or starving in this country who is willing to NOT be.
If this is a hard concept for anyone to understand, visit your local homeless shelter. You will be hard-pressed to find anyone that has actually worked hard in their life and ended up there. 90% are druggies / alcoholics / mentally disabled people - Nothing at all against these people, they need help, just a different kind of help.

Once again, welcome to Michigan. Engler shut down EVERY SINGLE public mental care institution. Everyone that should've been there? Jail or on the streets. They have no option here.

I grew up dirt-poor in a trailer park. Like, SUPER poor. The roof leaked when it rained. Utilities constantly got shut off, etc.

Looking back, I realized that my parents were irresponsible and bad with managing money. It wasn't that they were lazy - just extremely irresponsible, as I'm assuming you've witnessed in the places you've lived. We all make our own beds. a

Contrary to what our constitution or the bible or whatever says, we are not all create equal. Some of us are smarter / more intelligent / more capable than others. They may work 'harder' but try to teach them PHP, they will never, ever, EVER get it. It's just not comprehendable (is that a word?) to these people. Dont' feel bad for them. Just understand that, the cashier working at walmart MOST LIKELY isn't down on their luck... That's all they're really capable of.

I understand and agree. But if you're gifted with something that so many people weren't, don't you feel the least desire to make sure they can exist in a healthy fashion?
We all got lucky. We were given at least some form of opportunity(some more than others) and had the natural ability to do things that SO many people in our country never could. We worked our asses off, yes. But still. Actually, my girlfriend(who is reading over my shoulder) pointed out that the woman who works the hardest out of anyone she knows(I've met her, and it's true), makes less than $15,000 per year. And by the way, she recently got her water shut off. She doesn't live extravagantly at all by the way. And there's no way I can look in my bank account and say that I deserve all that, while she deserves to get her water shut off just because I happened to get lucky in the genetic pool.

This one I agree with you on 100%. While ultimately I am against universal health care, I DO agree that we need to take care of our youth. Especially from their dead beat parents.

I just wish there was a way to give the kids money, without giving it to the parents. And btw, taking them away from their parents it's more expensive, and generally traumatic for the kids(my father used to have to do that as part of his job. Some of the most heart breaking stories you'll ever hear)

Prove yourself wrong. Go talk to some people on welfare. Find some hard evidence that they are not working, even though they want to. You won't find them. They are all losers / deadbeats / etc. Show me ONE example of someone who actually tried to make something of themselves, put forth a legitimate effort and didn't make it.

I've met some that tried to make something of themselves, and did for a bit, and made some shitty shitty decisions. But most around here are people who just aren't capable. I worked(community service) at a private soup kitchen. These guys honestly just didn't have the ability. And with no public mental care or anything like that around here, and no way for them to afford medication, they're just royally fucked. A lot of them just did odd jobs when they could, but it never adds up enough.

I'm not un-compassionate, I just have a very low tolerance for people who don't get up in the morning and try to better themselves.

And for what it's worth, I'm a libertarian, not a Republican.

I agree with that completely. When we are given some gift or talent, it is our almost obligation to everyone else to do the best we can with it and develop it.
However, that said, I don't want to punish the people with IQs lower than the temperature in January. They really can't make much of themselves.

Originally Posted by erect

Getting out of Iraq gives us the ability to stop borrowing from China, which is a good start. We need to rid our generation of social security ... that's currently ~40% of our GDP. Keep funding for the old farts with our money because they were lied to and cheated. But be honest with us genxers, it's simply not going to be there and we shouldn't have to pay for our gov't funded retirement that won't exist.

But you want the gov't up our asses with finances??? Do you really think the way they fake budgeting and spend frivolously is going to get the country in better shape?

Spending frivolously? Keeping people alive is spending frivolously? Getting them educated and healthy and in a position where they can actually benefit the country?(providing they're able of course).
Once again. Chop the fuck out of experimental military programs. Chop the fuck out of beaurocracies. Stop putting people in Jail for weed, and try and educate the people that are in jail so they can have a shot in hell of getting a job when they get out(and btw, people with a job will be the guys NOT commiting crimes and NOT using up more police budgets/prosecution budgets). What do you think it costs to arrest and prosecute someone nowadays? Easily 40k. Plus housing them in jail again. That's several years at a private university worth of money. So get em a damn community college education.

Combine all those and you have billions saved from the military, and millions saved from criminals not going back to jail once they're out.

Give the taxes back to the people and let them donate how they see fit. You want to give money to poverty stricken families, cool. Many others will too. I'm personally going to set up free internet access and give those same kids a cpu. Again, teach to fish.

Hellllll yes.

99% is a bit high, perhaps 60-70% is closer, and I do feel for those people. Or maybe Detroit has some ambitious poor people that I've never experienced. Go live in Memphis for a bit and you'll get a glimpse of reality.

Shitty medical care is better than no medical care.

Breaking the chain is tough to do. Giving the handouts has not worked, time to figure something else out. And fucked up adults come from not being loved as a child, not anything that has to do with money, education & food. How can you really say that you love your child when you know you can't afford them and keep popping more out ... that's not love like republicans know it. Remember, Job #1 is to take care of yourself and your family.

Handouts hasn't worked, I'll admit. But I still want to give the kids a chance. Helping the parents are just a necessary condition since they handle the money.

That's a whole different topic and I would wager that very few people in the country agrees with me on this one. That's ok, I still stand behind it. If you want kids that bad after getting your finances together, adopt. Love has nothing to do with genetics.

True, but it's a hard sell still. Given the fact my belief is the government needs to stay the fuck out of my body, it'd be a bit out there for me to agree.
My body is my possession, and regardless of any other condition(and I mean any other condition) they are not allowed to make any permanent decisions about it.

[Pheelix]

People don't vote on personal interest. People choose how they vote by answering the question: "What would a person like me vote for?".
And if you're a guy who values helping the poor over low taxes, you'll vote for that even if it fucks you.

[erect]

<< Spending frivolously? Keeping people alive is spending frivolously? >>

Sure, if we had the money, feed the children. But our aching heart cares more about overseas dealings than our own.

Spending frivolously = FEMA, social security, Department of Homeland Security, Israeli Aid, Dept of Education, War on Drugs, Military overseas, Lucrative Congressional retirement plan, IRS, Federal Reserve, etc .... and yes, welfare, medicare / medicaid.

Should it all go away, of course not. But the levels should not be anywhere close to where they are today.

[xmcp123]

Originally Posted by erect

<< Spending frivolously? Keeping people alive is spending frivolously? >>

Sure, if we had the money, feed the children. But our aching heart cares more about overseas dealings than our own.

Spending frivolously = FEMA, social security, Department of Homeland Security, Israeli Aid, Dept of Education, War on Drugs, Military overseas, Lucrative Congressional retirement plan, IRS, Federal Reserve, etc .... and yes, welfare, medicare / medicaid.

Should it all go away, of course not. But the levels should not be anywhere close to where they are today.

You had me until the etc.

[_poto_]

what I find amusing is that we're on the verge of a global socio-economic meltdown... many 3rd world nations are on the brink of collapse because of food shortages and the riots that are ensuing... the dollar being in the shitter hasn't helped matters either... yet people are still content to argue about trivial shit like dems vs. repubs...

sheeple...

[BrooklynBlue]

I get the excessive taxation argument in principle, but:

1. The Bush administration, in many different ways, has decimated the Federal budget. Cut taxes + spend way the fuck more. In what world does that kind of math work?
2. What's with the obsession over welfare, food stamps, medicaid, etc? Sure something is more than nothing, so if you're against it in principle, ok. But these are such small parts of the Federal budget (especially after Clinton's welfare reforms) it's kind of silly to keep harping on it if the argument is really levels of gov't efficiency. Defense spending is like 2/3 of the Federal budget. The bulk of the remainder is Medicare & Social Security.
3. The biggest drains on government spending are the defense/national security black hole and Medicare. Medicare spending is spiraling not because of gov't largesse (they actually keep cutting benefits & payment levels) but only mirrors what is going on in the health care industry at large

Besides what about things like publicly regulated utilities, roads, the Internet, a monetary system that doesn't require exchange of a physical medium, that are the result of *ba dum dum* ... big government?

Disclaimer: No, I'm not in college, and yes, I make very good money (off-line).

[subigo]

Because my best friend tells me every week he wants to come home from Iraq... he's been there 2 years.

[HarveyJ]

Overall, welfare takes up SFA of a federal budget... Why do people who always bitch about tax assume it always gets spent on welfare?
Do you people have any idea how expensive it is just to maintain essential infrastructure like roads? Bitchumen & Tarmac cost approximately $25m^2... More for elevated works... How much road is there in the US?

If you use hospitals, got an education, have ever had to call the emergency services (police, fire or ambulance) or just drive anywhere EVER, you should pay taxes. Period.
Perhaps not as much as you currently are, because the ultra rich get away with spending a lot less than they should...
It just means Government needs to get tighter on upper-class tax-shelters. i.e Kerry Packer, Australian media mogul that wasn't Murdoch, was proud of paying only about $3k a year in tax... He earned about $90m a year....

22% of the USA GDP went on the combined military budget in 2007 (potentially a lot more if you count the Iraq fiasco, but that's technically "Foreign Affairs"). Welfare was 12.7% according to Wiki... Yet you never hear tax-whiners say "Oh, we need to cut the military budget" because they're always the same idiots who have "Support the Troops" stickers on their bumpers.
Support the Troops~!? You know what would support the troops? Some decent fucking veterans welfare like post traumatic medical and psychological care, and maybe a decent pension for those that never managed to become commissioned officers.
You know what else wastes millions of dollars? An electoral system based on popularity, instead of party policy, and a head of state that can veto laws that cost millions of dollars to get off the ground, unless 66% of all representatives agree with it...

[aim]

Originally Posted by _poto_

what I find amusing is that we're on the verge of a global socio-economic meltdown... many 3rd world nations are on the brink of collapse because of food shortages and the riots that are ensuing... the dollar being in the shitter hasn't helped matters either... yet people are still content to argue about trivial shit like dems vs. repubs...

sheeple...

Poto - if you read the context of the arguments here, it's much more than just 'Democrats vs Republicans'. What we are witnessing on this forum and elsewhere is a convalescence of awareness on the whole political spectrum - Dems and republicans alike.

Said differently, citizens from all parties are sick of the status-quo in American politics, and despite what the main stream media would lead us to believe, we actually see eye to eye on more issues than not.

I agree with XCMP on pretty much everything he said; we both agree that the world is fucked up for the under privileged and their families, we all agree the war is a waste, we all agree that the war on drugs, pork barrel earmarks, etc are all a waste.

The disagreement then isn't Republican vs Democrat; it's how to best use our tax dollars and help the disenfranchised. It's a dilemna almost impossible to answer. If you are talking about paying for their college, you are assuming that they have what it takes to actually attend school and get through a program; chances are they don't.

Regarding welfare, if you give them too much, you incentize them to maintain their current lifestyle. If you help them too little, they will pursue a life of crime & corruption, and end up in Jail, costing us lots of money. As XCMP pointed us, prosecuting and keeping someone in the prison system is EXTREMELY costly.

From Google Answers: Prison Expenditures
It costs $100,000 to build a new prison cell. It costs $200,000 over
25 years to pay interest on the construction debt; and in excess of
$22,000 per year/per cell to operate.

It would almost be better to just put these people in apartment complexed, give them some weed and xbox and tell them to not commit crimes. Or institute super strict laws like Singapore. I dunno. It's all fucked up, which is why it's so hard to fix.

[Netphase]

Originally Posted by subigo

Because my best friend tells me every week he wants to come home from Iraq... he's been there 2 years.

Nobody forced him to join the military.....

[_poto_]

Originally Posted by aim

Poto - if you read the context of the arguments here, it's much more than just 'Democrats vs Republicans'. What we are witnessing on this forum and elsewhere is a convalescence of awareness on the whole political spectrum - Dems and republicans alike.

yea, I know... I was referring to the thread title and the first post...

Originally Posted by aim

Said differently, citizens from all parties are sick of the status-quo in American politics, and despite what the main stream media would lead us to believe, we actually see eye to eye on more issues than not.

I agree with XCMP on pretty much everything he said; we both agree that the world is fucked up for the under privileged and their families, we all agree the war is a waste, we all agree that the war on drugs, pork barrel earmarks, etc are all a waste.

The disagreement then isn't Republican vs Democrat; it's how to best use our tax dollars and help the disenfranchised. It's a dilemna almost impossible to answer. If you are talking about paying for their college, you are assuming that they have what it takes to actually attend school and get through a program; chances are they don't.

Regarding welfare, if you give them too much, you incentize them to maintain their current lifestyle. If you help them too little, they will pursue a life of crime & corruption, and end up in Jail, costing us lots of money. As XCMP pointed us, prosecuting and keeping someone in the prison system is EXTREMELY costly.

It would almost be better to just put these people in apartment complexed, give them some weed and xbox and tell them to not commit crimes. Or institute super strict laws like Singapore. I dunno. It's all fucked up, which is why it's so hard to fix.

I also agree with most of what XMCP says...

of course, I've known people that were on welfare milking the system, buying big screen TVs and buying drugs with food stamps, etc... I've also known people that were in far greater need, but too proud to take government assistance... it's quite difficult to get help to the people that actually need it...

our system is dysfunctional and in need of repair... from a social welfare programs to taxes, bureaucracy has created a bloated beast of a system... still, what we have here in the states as dysfunctional as it is, it's much better than many 3rd world nations... our standard of living for our poorest is much higher than when compared to the poorest of most other nations...

imho, short of a revolution or major economic collapse... when the government doesn't have enough tax dollars to afford to house the millions in prison, then and only then will reforms have to be had... otherwise, I don't think much will change for the better... our 2 party system ensures too much incestuous corruption...

[subigo]

Originally Posted by Netphase

Nobody forced him to join the military.....

That doesn't change the fact that he wants to come home and they have extended his tour 3 times already. He has a 2 year old daughter that he has seen twice.

The question was, "why vote democrat"...

My answer: So a father can finally meet his daughter.

[HarveyJ]

I really don't like the whole blowing-my-own-horn (although if I could do it naturally, you'd never hear from me again) thing, but read up on Australia's distribution of welfare, and our various state paid for social programs.

Our culture is as close to American as you can get (except maybe Canada's), but our Governments generally believe in socialistic spending and responsibility.
Tertiary education is government subsidized, prisons have excellent education facilities for trades and IT (go figure) so people can get a real life afterwards if they want to, a welfare-to-work program (although this has its own issues in that it hides jobs that could otherwise pay a real wage), decent public medical coverage (except dental), etc etc.

And as a per-capita thing, we have less money in our economy than America does.
It's all a matter of spending priorities... Unfortunately, American governments always end up in thrall of the lobby groups due to the way that your electoral system works (yes, these issues are intertwined).

Then there's also the sad fact that, from a historical basis, America's economy actually relies on 20% of the work force to be slaves. I know it's a horrible thing to say, but I get the feeling if you compared current minimum wages against what black slaves on plantations got, the economic value of the slaves' clothes, board & feed might actually be more than the equivalent of today's minimum wage.

[oogie1947]

Popeye, you sure like to stir the shit. Keep up the good work.

[WebGambit]

Lot of complaining and pointing fingers, but only a few vague references to how to solve the problems. If we're going to bitch about it, let's come up with a solution to it.

And no more of this "If I were president" crap either. How do we fix it from where we are now? From my point of view, it seems to me that the biggest problems we have is corporate influence and career politicians. But I readily admit I don't have a clue as to how we'll get Congress to pass the laws needed to cut their own throats. But, if we could, I think we could then make progress into other areas such as the budget, foreign affairs, etc.

[tweak50]

Because republicans have ruined the economy.
Because being in Iraq is killing America.
Because the privileged in the country should help the under privileged.
Because money isn't everything, if they want to tax me more to help the country, so be it.

[tweak50]

Originally Posted by HarveyJ

Then there's also the sad fact that, from a historical basis, America's economy actually relies on 20% of the work force to be slaves. I know it's a horrible thing to say, but I get the feeling if you compared current minimum wages against what black slaves on plantations got, the economic value of the slaves' clothes, board & feed might actually be more than the equivalent of today's minimum wage.

Coming from a family that would be in that 20%, I completely fucking agree.

[turbolapp]

Because It's currently the lesser of the 2 evils.

Now the next question would be why would anyone, with a heart, be a Rebulican?

[invisible777]

Originally Posted by tweak50

Because republicans have ruined the economy.
Because being in Iraq is killing America.
Because the privileged in the country should help the under privileged.
Because money isn't everything, if they want to tax me more to help the country, so be it.

Ok Obama-girl.

I'm not paying my hard earned money to send an illegal off to college and provide them with free healthcare. Eat me.

[turbolapp]

I just paid illegals to paint my house. (actually the business owner was most likely a citizen but his workers were almost certainly not) And they did a brilliant job.

[invisible777]

there ya go, they will be able to pay their own way to college like we all had to do if we choose that path

[LazyHippy]

Those who are concerned about how their taxes are spent need to look at where the majority of them have gone over the last few years and the likely policies of a future Republican president.

Then, if money is the only thing important to you, buy shares in Halliburton and vote for McCain.

[xmcp123]

Originally Posted by invisible777

Ok Obama-girl.

I'm not paying my hard earned money to send an illegal off to college and provide them with free healthcare. Eat me.

Oh you're one of those guys who believes there will be abortion too vending machines, right?
Go fuck yourself.

Universities to not get that much money, and illegals wold be paying taxes for the most part if they were even making fucking minimum wage, and had an ability to. And with how cheap shit is because of them, you're coming out on top.
Oh yeah, and they don't go free or anything.

[loyolabenson]

Because I do not want a 100 year War

[tweak50]

Originally Posted by invisible777

Ok Obama-girl.

I'm not paying my hard earned money to send an illegal off to college and provide them with free healthcare. Eat me.

Fuck yeah I'm an Obama-girl. Better than being a McCain salad tosser.

And seriously, pull your head out of your cavernous vagina. The country is falling apart and all you can think about is your hard earned money? With the rate that our currency is turning into generic toilet paper you'd think people would be a little more concerned with fixing the economy and stop petty bitching about taxes.

[narsticle]

Originally Posted by tweak50

all you can think about is your hard earned money?

one word: YES

[tweak50]

Originally Posted by narsticle

one word: YES

Between your avatar and your user status, who would have guessed?? haha

[narsticle]

Originally Posted by tweak50

Between your avatar and your user status, who would have guessed?? haha

LOL....changing status soon.....but nice point

[erect]

No politicians have good character, just get used to it.

voting taxes = putting money back in American's pockets and allowing them to do the right thing. The common man has more integrity than any politician. This also makes for smaller government and less waste. If big gov't is gone, more responsibility falls down to the city / state level ... which is where is should be.

Forgive me for oversimplifying things for you by simply stating that I vote taxes. If you read what I have to say above you will realize it's not all about the dollars but what power those dollars give (& take away). I will always pay taxes because I drive on streets, enjoy being protected by the police, send my kid to public school, like the fact that we have parks & appreciate having a powerful military (if we'd keep them in the borders). Taxes will always have to be paid, but the levels we pay (and the direction they go when they leave our hands) are absurd.

Since we are name calling here, I guess that makes you an ignorant little fucktard for not looking what the taxes represent and just assuming I'm wanting to keep it all to myself. Put the power in the people's hands and watch them be generous with it and donate to charity, churches, education funds and other good causes. We'll also build more small business and advertise more which is fucking great for the economy.

I wonder how many sets of spinners and xbox game systems will be purchased with the '08 tax breaks. Am I the only one who sees this as a temporary solution and not worth it? Never trust the gov't to do the right thing for the future economy ... capitalism works well because the power is in our hands to build. Why you are hoping GWB or Obama have the answers to this I'll never know. We need wholesale tax code changes to stimulate this stagnant economy, not a couple hundred dollars to shut us up.

BTW: You were probably in diapers when Clinton was in office so to fill you in on those 8 years ... I was paying more taxes during that term than under GWB and Bill used the military as a smoke screen for his affairs. You can't give Clinton credit for the economy as we had a genius named Alan Greenspan who was in his prime driving the train back then. The president has little control over the economy ... except tax control. He's more of a puppet and gets too much credit on that topic.

I agree that Bush sucks ass, so did Bill Clinton & to an extent Bush Sr. before him. Reagan was pretty decent but got the debt snowball rolling while shutting Russia down. But he fought & won a war with money, how fucking awesome is that.

Gawd I can't wait to take the power away from the baby boomers. The technology babies of today are going to do a so much better job of electing officials.

Honestly, if I vote this year it will probably be for Nader because McCain is quite simply not a republican. He's in the back pocket of all the lobbyists just like the rest of them. If I really though Obama was serious about legalization of marijuana I'd consider suffering for 4 years for that but he's just blowing smoke up our arses (pun / no pun / whatever).

Why did the public just shrug Ron Paul off again? I'm still confused how that went down as he is exactly what most people want, a hard working normal guy who delivered babies, is a brilliant economist and spent time in the military. He was a real person, not a politician.

We just crucified our savior again ... way to go fellow Romans

Originally Posted by peeon

I probably pay more taxes than everyone combined (even double/triple counting) above me. I will not vote for Clinton (bought & sold) or McCain (crazy ass nutcase).

If you are voting for taxes as the only reason (erect) then you are a fucking greedy little bitch. Look what Bush has done. He has spent trillions in Iraq and destroyed our currency, put us in a recession. Great your taxes are lower, look how well that worked out.

Look at the character of the person you are voting for and ALL their policies. Stop being so fucking greedy, it has fucked us over the last 8 years and I'm sick of this shit.

[turbolapp]

Originally Posted by tweak50

Fuck yeah I'm an Obama-girl. Better than being a McCain salad tosser.

And seriously, pull your head out of your cavernous vagina.

I'm seriously thinking about making one of these two quotes my new sig.

I'm leaning towards the second because it's been a longtime theory of mine that men have a subconcious fear that women will devour them with their vaginas.

[tweak50]

Originally Posted by erect

I wonder how many sets of spinners and xbox game systems will be purchased with the '08 tax breaks. Am I the only one who sees this as a temporary solution and not worth it? Never trust the gov't to do the right thing for the future economy ... capitalism works well because the power is in our hands to build. Why you are hoping GWB or Obama have the answers to this I'll never know. We need wholesale tax code changes to stimulate this stagnant economy, not a couple hundred dollars to shut us up.

The only thing I see the tax break doing is interrupting the 6 consecutive month downturn of GPD needed for this to be classified as a recession. That way they can possibly push it far enough back until after the election.

Nice post by the way. I don't agree with everything you said, but at least you explained yourself thoroughly.

[narsticle]

Originally Posted by turbolapp

it's been a longtime theory of mine that men have a subconcious fear that women will devour them with their vaginas.

I Dont think thats possible, do the men in your life have an extra chromosome?

[tweak50]

Originally Posted by turbolapp

I'm seriously thinking about making one of these two quotes my new sig.

I'm leaning towards the second because it's been a longtime theory of mine that men have a subconcious fear that women will devour them with their vaginas.

Haha, I would be honored.

Have you seen or heard of the movie about a girl who's vagina grows teeth and tries to take over the world?

TEETH the Movie

[turbolapp]

Originally Posted by narsticle

I Dont think thats possible, do the men in your life have an extra chromosome?

It's a metaphorical pychological fear, not a physical one.

[turbolapp]

Originally Posted by tweak50

Haha, I would be honored.

Have you seen or heard of the movie about a girl who's vagina grows teeth and tries to take over the world?

TEETH the Movie

I JUST saw that on google images when I was looking for the Yoni Goddess picture!

EDIT: leave it to hollywood to morph men's psychological fear INTO a physical one!!

[invisible777]

Originally Posted by tweak50

Fuck yeah I'm an Obama-girl. Better than being a McCain salad tosser.

And seriously, pull your head out of your cavernous vagina. The country is falling apart and all you can think about is your hard earned money? With the rate that our currency is turning into generic toilet paper you'd think people would be a little more concerned with fixing the economy and stop petty bitching about taxes.

Originally Posted by xmcp123

Oh you're one of those guys who believes there will be abortion too vending machines, right?
Go fuck yourself.

Oh, please. Of course, Obama is the answer to everything. If he gets in office, everything will be great starting on day 1.

He has a lot to answer for between now and November.