hazzan

all of the babies he killed?

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elime

hazzan

What?

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stoxup

Huh?

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LotsOfZeros

what babies?

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machinecontrol

Didn't you know that John McCain enjoys eating babies?

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LotsOfZeros

You mean "the other, other white meat"

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Drake

He aint pro life. He is the most liberal of Republicans trying to make everyone think he will do what they want.

Like all politicians I guess.

Sohan

In regards to the baby, bohemian grove?

Also he is in no way pro life at all.

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turbolapp

People need to change this argument to pro/anti-choice. It just makes more sense then saying someone is or isn't pro life...wtf does that mean anyway? Prolife vs anti life? Yeah we're all walking around alive, anti life. stupid.

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losser

turbolapp - wtf are you talking about choice? What gives a woman the right to kill a living human just because it is not convenient for them to carry for 9 months? The fetus does not have a choice to live or die!
I guess it depends on when you think life starts, life has to start at conception because you start growing and developing. If the fetus is considered alive at 18 weeks or whenever it is what has changed? How can the law say that something that is developing into a human is not yet a human? the dumbest thing I have ever heard!
By the way I am an atheist, this is not a religious argument for me!

LotsOfZeros

ah oh - losser just became the next n00by snack candidate
*LotsOfZeros gets very far away*

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turbolapp

so....you would be anti-choice.

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losser

turbolapp - who's choice? (nobody bothered to ask the fetus) how is it even a choice? Murder or doing the right thing, there are many many many families that will raise the child.
Calling it a "choice" is bullshit! If the person did not want a child the person should have kept there legs shut (we are not discussing rape etc.) personal responsibility is a bitch hu!
I get pissed when women start talking about it being there body etc. If the pregnancy is not killing you then you are killing a living thing because it is not convenient for you.

Why does P.e.t.a. not get there nickers in a twist over humans being killed but they go ape shit over a chicken.

You can try and make it as simple as pro or anti choice, witch implies pro or anti freedom but we are not talking about hair color. Human life trumps everything else but when women start talking about there whohas all of a sudden murder is acceptable. Not sure how that works!

-Matt-

That is not the only thing your bring into consideration when making the decision to abort. Some women or families are just not ready to raise a child. I would argue that the baby would be better off not being born if the alternative is to grow up in a financially screwed home, that is now even going to suffer even more financial problems because you just added another person to feed.

Yes, they could put it up for adoption after it's born. Yes, the fetus had no choice in its fate. Yes, they could have taken better birth control measures, etc, etc, etc.

My belief though is that the fetus at that point is no higher up than a bug or a mouse (they're alive, but we intentionally kill them all the time).

I'm pro abortion because sometimes it is necessary, but I do agree that alternatives should be sought out first.

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machinecontrol

I think George Carlin says it best. All these "pro-life" guys who are responsible for the deaths of hundreds of thousands in Iraq and other wars are full of shit.
<object height="344" width="425">

<embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/MrXvDXVhqfU&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" height="344" width="425"></object>

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HarveyJ

Matt's got a really good point there.
Considering that a kid in a foster home is substantially more likely to suffer abuse that's going to screw them up in a very long term way, and potentially even worse abuse if they're born into the sort of situation that actually makes adopting them out a more desirable option than not... I would agree that not being born at all would be the best choice.

losser, I'd like to know what your stance on euthanasia is, as these two issues are usually linked, at least subconsciously, in people's minds.
If your life is one of terrible pain and anguish, surely the best option to a painless exit to it. By that logic, if your life is going to be a life of suffering, surely not being born at all would be best.

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losser

WTF? first, if a person is responsible after getting knocked up they would spend the 9 months either finding a good family for the child or letting an agency do it for them. I was adopted at 3 days old. My birth mother was 17.
The notion that the child would go to foster care and thus there life would suck is complete bullshit. That is a 2nd grade argument. Shit, using your twisted logic we should not get out of bed or run the next ppc campaign cause something bad might happen.
The point about not killing the fetus is the human has a chance at life. I am not talking about extenuating situations here, (rape etc.) just abortion, cause you can.



As for the George Carlin argument, you and anyone else who agrees with that is an idiot. Terrorists want you dead. No negotiation, your way of life would be over. Your porn habit would be over, your right to be an idiot, gone!

What do I believe about euthanasia, if you are going to die a miserable death and you want to avoid it, avoid it.
The thing is, how do you know the unwanted child's life will suck? By that logic, don't let any more kids be born in 3rd world countries. Only let kids be born to parents with credit scores above 720. There is no promise to a good life!
There is an adoption system in this country that could handle the number of abortions performed every year.
The arguement is stupid that there life might suck so it is ok for them to die.

RuDeDoGg

losser: Just curious, how old are you?

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emp

Looser.. for the record, I am pro-choice.

And yes, I do consider it a choice, as I also do not consider the mass of cells prior to three months as a "fetus" or a "human being" it is just a lump of tissue.

Basically the same as eating a chicken egg.

::emp::

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LotsOfZeros

what babies?

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losser

emp - what logic do you use to come by that number? why 3 months?
As for comparison to chicken eggs, don't see how that applies. We as humans eat animals just as there are some animals that would eat us. Nature. The lump of cells as you call it is living and developing into an animal that has the ability to reason. (thus making it 1 billion times more valuable than a chicken witch was conceived for us to eat) How do I know it is living? because if it did not have its mother it would die, from conception, not at 3 months.

What does my age have to do with anything?

LotsOfZeros

One thing I can say with conviction:
No man has ever had an abortion. (and I'm no doctor so don't even go there)

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losser

lotsofzeros - wtf does a man not having the abortion have to do with anything? It takes 2 too make the baby, despite what a bunch of feminazis would have us think. Since it took 2 man has a say in it!

ummdav1d

Well said.

erect

That is a solid argument. You made the choice by being a hoe ... plain and simple. Now you would consider murdering your own child because it's convenient.

All of my life I've been outwardly pro-choice, but the truth is I'm really pro-life with me and mine (republican style responsibility!!!). Keeping my (and my friends) family alive is a top priority. Everyone else should have the option of aborting.

I could give 2 shits less what the general public does and I really look at it as population control. I really don't think everyone is a good fit for breeding ... these are the people who I think abortion clinics should remain open for. I feel bad for the unborn kid and all but his chance of life was shit, and I'd have to pay for it through welfare.

Sorry losser but the majority of people that should won't choose adoption because they are afraid of what their families will think. So the options really are A: abort or B: raise the baby the best they can.

A real answer would be putting an IQ minimum on being a parent, not testing your credit score.

LotsOfZeros

I said that so I can blame the women for making decisions with their bodies. They keep the men's decision out of consideration so we are not guilty. It's just easier that way.

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RuDeDoGg

http://www.chrisevans3d.com/files/iq.htm
hahaha

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losser

lotsofzeros - ah, that makes perfect sense to me!

e - hell no I am not writing your name! you are right that a lot of people will not do the right thing but using that as an excuse does not cut it. We should expect the best out of each other. We should not let society be run like our schools were we teach to the dumbest.

turbolapp

It's nice you have opinions. But you can substitute opinions for want. (see my sig)

It's still my body...so my choice. Ha. The day you start letting the government make decisions for our own bodies is a mistake.

The government might well decide you're too stupid to breed and cut of your testicles... (If you think I'm being dramatic just look at what happened to the Native Americans)

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Jizzlobber

Jizzlobbotomy....

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Sohan

What terrorists? Seriously.. you believe that shit? Oh gawd, no way! THE WAR ON TERROR!

The war on terror is fraud. Almost everything that was supposed to have been executed by 'terrorists' was an inside job and done by your very own government.

By doing so, they make you feel insecure, then they launch these wars against them for money and slowly implement martial law. You give up rights one by one slowly because you think you'll become safer and you'll stop those terrorists! Like now, in America your fourth amendment is no more. How does that make you feel? Your loosing the base of what your great country was built upon.

It's not the 'terrorists' that are taking your rights, it's your own government doing it under your nose and your too ignorant to realise!

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Ibanez

Sorry, it doesn't work that way. IQ distribution gravitates towards the mean. So two 130 IQ people can have a child and still have a retard.

emp

Actually, decades of Psychological research (the amount of effort that went into this question is unbelievable) show that intelligence is determined 50/50 between nature (genes) and nurture (how a kid is raised, environment, etc).

So yes, a high IQ couple can have a stupid kid, but genes less likely to affect it too much, because high IQ couples tend to have the means (money, job, social network) to provide a very good environment for the kid.

Stupid parents (to use the layman's term) might give birth to a genetically towards high IQ predisposed kid, but often lack the means to educate it.

::emp::

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DewChugr

OT, What if you could only get welfare support for one or two children at the most?

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LotsOfZeros

Congratulations! You have now just become the stupidest WF member to ever dodge the banhammer after an utterly idiotic statement.

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Jizzlobber

That would limit the amount of cigarettes and scratch tickets you could buy.

Fucking pisses me off to no end. My tax dollars supporting this shit - I see it all the time. Pull into a convenience store get in line behind some welfare bitch who's cashing in scratch tickets and then proceeds to buy a few dozen more and a couple of cartons of generic smokes on top. $80 in one pop. Meanwhile her kids are in tow and in desperate need of new shoes and a coat.

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turbolapp

That's another thing. Let's say you're the sterotypical conservative anti-choice/abortion. You also tend to be against welfare. So basically you are encouraging kids having kids (under educated at that), low income, higher at-risk behaviours, tending towards abusive ubringing and put the cherry on the cake now, no government assitance.

Yep. These are the type of children I want in my future: poor, dumb and PISSED.

Btw did anyone ever read Levitt's (same guy that wrote Freakonomics) theory that the rise of abortion in the late seventies and early 80's correlated with the reduction in the violent crime rate in the 90's? http://pricetheory.uchicago.edu/levi...alized2001.pdf

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LotsOfZeros

Yep, there it is, I knew it, losser just became the next n00by snack.

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erect

I realize you are trying to prove a point but it's really sad your line of thought excludes the dad from the decision about his kid. Fucking feminazis.

That said, the gov't is not mom or dad and should not be involved in the decision, leave the clinics open!!!

Sure it does but there are always exceptions to the rule. You are infinitely less likely to have 2 x 130 IQ = retarded than 2 x 65 IQ = retarded ... but I'm not arguing to much on that as this is kind of a no-brainer ... unless your IQ is close to room temperature then your arguement might sound logical.

^^ A scientific way of saying give your kids a happy childhood because that's reallly all you can control. I'm more of a nurture person but cannot discount hereditary tendencies. I'd say it's 70/30 but am no scientist.

Better idea ... How about we do away with welfare and make people pay for each child. something like this would work

0 kids = $3,000 annual refund
1 kid = $0 refund
2 kids = you pay $3,000 annually
3 kids = you pay $10,000 annually

This accomplishes 3 things. 1: welfare is done (good riddance) 2: we've now encouraged the smart people to breed at a faster rate. Being a baby's momma is not a job anymore, it's an expense. 3: population control!!!

... ooh yea, and we've magically balanced the out of control US budget

-Matt-

Totally agree.

Allowing the government make those types of choices will only lead to trouble.

At the end, abortion may be a "bad" choice in many peoples opinions, however it is still the potential mother's choice. People who get their nuts in a twist over abortion - get over it. People die everyday. Kids, who actually are old enough to decide if they want to die, get shot in drive-bys every fucking day. Were they asked if they wanted to fucking die?

Yes, some things in the world aren't perfect. Go find some made-up god to cry to about it.

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turbolapp

Sorry, that doesn't hold up either. Yes, it sucks that guys get left of of the final decision but what are you purposing...that they have the man make the final say? It's a medical decision amongst others and that would be like your wife given the right over your own decision about whether or not to operate on your body. Assuming you're of otherwise sound mind and body, how does that make sense?

I would hope that the couple can make the decision together. But if there is a disagreement then someone has to trump and it just doesn't make any sense to have the party that only participated in a split second sperm donation to have the dominating decision.

I never thought I would say this, but you boys need to stop being so emotional. Let's be logical here.

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Vendzilla

I'm with George

LotsOfZeros

Oh come on!

They don't call me the minute-man for nothing!

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erect

disclaimer: I am pro-choice because women who make the decisions to abort would be bad mothers, period.

I didn't propose anything. I just think it's sad that the women of the world look at this entire subject in asinine terms as "it's only your body" or "it's your problem" ... grow up. It's just plain inaccurate as many people (parents, siblings, fathers, etc) are affected by your decisions about your body. It's not just your problem and you shouldn't be the sole decision maker (especially in a pregnant state of mind).

^^ all the above is a plural you not you specifically turbo, you kick TexASS ^^

Since I'm being put on the spot, I'll give a solution: 2 signatures required, either mom/parent or mom/dad (expensive dna test required for this one). I think the last thing we need is for an emotionally unstable woman to make 100% of a decision that affect everyone. There is a reason guys think girls are crazy ... they are most of the time.

Says the 8 month pregnant woman

losser

turbolap - your arguments don't work. First, forget the law. We are talking about right and wrong. Life or Murder. You can rationalize it any way you want but if you tried using your argument in any other case you would call bullshit!

by the way, the government makes many many many decisions about your body but you don't bitch about them because they don't get to define you as a woman. Boiled down to the core abortion is about power. The feminazis sold you a bill of goods saying you get to choose etc. what it really is about is power over men. You get to make the ultimate decision, life or death, what the man wants be damned.

turbolapp

Exactly.

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erect

Now this I'm totally for, not sure how I missed it earlier. Lets relate this to IQ also but make it easily achievable .. anyone over 80 IQ is fine

Instead of passing the gov't side of it to big brother (Washington) lets pass it to the penal system as part of a incentive to live a peaceful life.

hard crime ... nuts in a vice or blinder. And you have to watch.

bb_wolfe

I'm really surprised you'd say that. I'll admit my image of you is a little depreciated, given your current status...

By your logic, me stabbing/killing a pregnant woman and killing the baby is simply one count of murder. Unfortunately, the law in all 50 states considers my actions 2 counts.

I think once you take the responsibility to even risk a pregnancy, you're obligated to continue it until full term, unless it endangers the healthy of you, or the baby is the result of rape or incest.

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turbolapp

Life or Murder? So I guess you don't masterbate (assuming you're a guy here) ...I mean you are commiting murder everytime you shoot those millions of little lively cells all over the place and they don't reach their "goal" ...at least by your definition of life which is a bunch of cells...right?

For fucks sake, I can't even continue this arguement it's so ridiculous.

The point is there can only be one solution. You guys can whine about it all you like but the law is there for a reason. You can't make another person do anything they don't want with their own body. Period. Once that baby is disconnected from the body then all the same rules apply to that baby's body and I'll defend that baby's right to life 100%. Until then, you get nothing.

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