guerilla

Here are some points.

If the government can spend money better than people can, why don't we give government all of our money?

Or if we have to pay our fair share, how come most people pay nothing, and some people pay the bulk? Is it fair that the more your produce in the economy, the greater your burden? Isn't that a deterrent from working harder and smarter?

Quick show of hands. Everyone who is for taxes and for socialism.

How many of you give the government more than you owe each year when you file?

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pat J

Not the point. Sad that you can't understand that.

I make perfect rational sense if you use your head for a second or two.

The alternative is not an alternative. I'm just going to assume that you are a republican... do you think any republican (including ron paul) stands for personal liberty? Maybe you do. In that case your definition of liberty is rather... interesting.

I'm going to ignore the informal fallacy here. I'm FAR from being a socialist.

I guess i'll just ignore this fallacy too.

pat J

Ah, and there we have the problem. Black and white thinking.

guerilla

You made numerous replies, and managed to say nothing, with the exception of an assumption (which is incorrect btw).

Someone who endorses state theft is a socialist. You have no regard for the right to own property.

Why not just stick your head all of the way up your ass? As long as you are in denial, dodging and avoiding, you might as well not bother to read either.

The more I work, the more taxes I pay. The more I produce, think, plan, sweat and earn, the more I pay. I'm not taxed by my "footprint" in society, I'm taxed for doing more than others. Against my will, under threat of violence.

People like you are looters. You believe you have a right or some sort of moral/logical imperative to take from the few to give to the many, even if the few came by what they earned honestly.

Any internet marketer should understand incentives. Socialism does not work on incentives, on the contrary, it tries to negatively shape behavior by punishing production. Thinking. Innovation. Profit.

Socialism is the dumbing down of man. We wouldn't even be having this discussion today, but people are so fat and lazy from living off free credit and an inflationary debt economy for the last 25 years, that they have no conception of what it is to struggle to earn and survive. A bunch of fat cunts, like wealthy heirs who become granola and yoga marxists, feeling guilt for their wealth, because they have no conception of what goes into earning it in the first place.

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guerilla

Sure, you can thrive under grays. You can be wishy washy, never form a coherent opinion based on logic or rationality. It's the only way socialism works.

Pretend that taxing is not theft.
Pretend that progressive taxation is not imposing a penalty on the successful.
Pretend that you care about the unfortunate, while advocating that everyone but you make sacrifices.
Use the power of the state to push an agenda on others you don't have the courage to impose on yourself.

You're either free or you are a slave. There is no in between. You can't be mostly free, because that is partially enslaved.

Is the world black and white? I think murder is black and white. I think theft is black and white. I think pedophilia is black and white. I think good and evil are black and white.

Socialists like to argue that what is, isn't and vice versa. Sometimes it takes someone to stand up and call bullshit for what it is.

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LazyHippy

The problem is, the very top of the few didn't earn it honestly.

The few that should really shoulder the burden of taxation are the Enrons and Halliburtons that use their political muscle to take from us all and the many that should receive handouts are the kids dying - one every 2 fucking seconds - from lack of clean water in Africa, not the welfare scroungers pumping out kids in trailer parks in the US and council estates over here.

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pat J

You got to stop making up your own definitions. Socialism is where the government (or collective) controls all means of production. Nothing is privatized. Private property does not exist. Everything is shared. Everything.

You're using an informal fallacy again.... I have nothing against private property since i'm a social liberal (note: social does not equal socialist). I support a free market just like you. The difference is that i have realized that a safety net is required for a society if it wants to offer true liberty and freedom.

"Everyone for themselves" mentality only offers liberty to the fittest. Oh wait.. what's that called again?... oh right! Social darwinism.

Oh and..
I have never pretended that taxing is not theft.
I don't support a progressive tax system. Flat tax is the most fair system.
You are always a slave to something. In a pure capitalistic world we are all slaves to money and those who control it. In a pure socialist world we are all slaves to the collective. But there is something in between. Something much better.

So, again.. the problem is that you can only see the world in black and white. Good and evil are entirely subjective.

guerilla

What utter tripe Lazy.

For every Enron and Haliburton, there are 10 well run, ethical corporations. If your idea of justice is to send 11 men to jail for the crime of only one of them....

Because the laws affect all of them equally.

The lack of clean water in Africa, is because do-gooders encourage government to send aid, which is used to prop up dictators and tyrants, who rape the country and abuse the people. The reason why Africa has not emerged, is because there is no justice, because the very people who impose totalitarian regimes, are the ones WE ARE FUNDING.

That psycho in Zimbabwe has destroyed their economy and their money. How? With his psycho socialist ideas and so-called racial justice.

Government is not a solution. It is the problem. That is why as China becomes less authoritarian, less socialistic, their country is opening up and the people are starting to gain some measure of prosperity.

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guerilla

This is incorrect. You are correct about the means of production, which includes capital goods, or "savings" which are profit.

When you tax profit, it is no longer privately owned. It is socially owned 100% (show me the law that prevents 100% taxation) and the taxpayer is allowed to keep a portion of the taxes. Good luck ever trying to pay yourself first and the tax man second, he has the higher claim on your earnings, a higher claim than you do!

You just contradicted yourself. You don't even know what a free market is. If you did, and you believed in it, then you couldn't brook the notion of safety nets, which are anti-free market.

Social liberal is nonsense. The original liberals were laissez-faire and all about private property. They were for hard money, small or no government and zero regulation. Learn some history.

Actually, it is the natural order. Any man who lives his life for another, is a slave. And any man who relies on another man for his life, is also a slave. Self-ownership is independence.

It doesn't mean you can't or shouldn't help another, but you have no obligation, no connection by birth to serve another man, or require that another man serve you.

If that was the case, you wouldn't be on here posting. You would be out working until you passed out each day, in order to feed clothe and educate all of your fellow men, who (based on this premise) have a claim on you and your life.

Flat tax is not a fair system. No tax is a fair system. People pay for what they use. They do not pay for what they do not use. If they want to pay for someone else, that is charity. They cannot be forced, which is theft.

Again, you're babbling, because you don't have a principle to lean on. You're flitting back and forth behind common social ideals that are based on logical fallacies.

Only a socialist would say something this ignorant. You totally disgust me.

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Rusky

Its to late. I was already fluent in another language when I got here. Dont throw away tax money in ESL programs. I was there I know.

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Nobody gives you a chance, you gotta take chances.

LazyHippy

I respectfully disagree.

Look where most of the money is - banking, insurance, energy, arms - are the majority of those industries honest?

I'm not saying penalise many for the crimes of a few - in fact I'd rather see 100 guilty men on the streets than lock up one innocent one - but Big Business should be held financially and morally accountable and it isn't going to do it of it's own accord. Unfortunately our governments are too much in the pocket of these industries to have the desire to take any action, as recent events prove.

Corruption in Africa is certainly part of the problem, but only a small part compared to the actions of the IMF and World Bank (such as forced privatisation tied to loans) and unfair trade. The EU & America spout crap about "free markets" yet heavily subsidise a few select industries with our fucking taxes so they can compete with countries which can't afford to subsidise theirs.

I agree that government has been part of the problem, but - if done correctly (big if, I know) it can be part of the solution. We are one world - like it or not - and while it is the rich west (and China and others) that benefit from keeping half the world in poverty it cannot be left to so-called free markets to stop the injustice.

I would be in favour of free markets if it was truely free - no subsides, import tariffs, tax breaks, unfair loans and all the other things that tip the balance in favour of one country or business over another. We would also need to start from a level playing field and that is very unlikely to happen.

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Rusky

Lets make it simple.

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Nobody gives you a chance, you gotta take chances.

bobsoap

Don't confuse a form of government with a market economy model.

What you describe is not socialism, it's communism. Socialism covers a broad range of ideas and techniques that in reality, are implemented selectively and to larger or lesser degrees into most existing democracies. At its extreme, socialism does resemble the paradigm of communism - but I'm sure you don't think in black and white, do you?

popeye

Every country in the world is tied to the US ecomony. I recently made a post and some fool stated that the UK didn't need the US. They have the EU and everything will be fine. I let that ignorant statment stand!.

Now the UK is almost in depression because EVERY country's economy is tied to the US.

To answer your question. Would being dependend upon another country ran by fools be good for the US...................NO!

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popeye

Damn Rusky! You understand

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popeye

I would bet 1k that you live with your mom.

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guerilla

That is very provincial of you and I appreciate it.

Right, but you are endorsing punishing everyone regardless of their industry. What you are subscribing to is not attacking evil, but anyone who comes into the vicinity of evil. You're saying that people who do well, create value, attain prosperity, by virtue of being a success, must be corrupt.

If government is in the pocket of business, why would we want more government? That's like trying to cure a heroin addict with a heroin overdose.

Government has never self-corrected without a revolution. And even that is temporary. The socialist view is that we are always on the road to perfection and utopia. That denies history and reality.

You'll never reform a government that has served the monied interests since day 1. If you even get close, elections will be suspended and martial law imposed. Voting itself is a joke. You're allowed to make a false choice from a pre-defined list of alternatives. The every day man does not become a politician or get close to power without totally compromising the values that encouraged him to run in the first place.

Regardless, stealing from people while we daydream about unattainable and unrealistic reforms is not acceptable behavior.

Excellence deserves a larger share of the balance. Equality is not mans condition. Some are fatter, taller smarter, more coordinated etc. All men and women are not equal, and it is ridiculous to insist that unequal contributors should have equal rewards. If you believe in freedom and justice, reward those who produce, and punish those who do not. In a free market. Trust me, the people with the intelligence and passion to produce in a free market, will have the moral fiber to also look out for the unfortunate, instead of the parasitic leeches at the top now, who lie and cheat their way, and thus lack any moral compass.

As far as a level playing field, I'd like to see the fucking Brits give back all of the prosperity their empire sucked from the world. Just kidding, but I hope you get my point. We can't fix the past, but we can provide for tomorrow.

Or he is a looter, who takes more than he contributes. Most people in the middle class are trying to get ahead, but being milked to pay for the people above and below them in the system retards mobility.

Why do people never ask questions like "why give XX billion in foreign aid, when there are 20 million people on foodstamps at home?"

Because the system doesn't work for the people. It works for the agenda of a financial and political elite. All the more reason to deny these moochers any more money than you absolutely have to.

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bobsoap

This is true to the bone, and I believe it is the core of the problem. Power corrupts. Humanity's current problems cannot be solved within our own currently prevalent boundaries.

Sorry for the philosophic approach here.

guerilla

Power does corrupt. Which is why everyone should be a sovereign individual. We need to decentralize instead of trying to centralize. Some people actually are for world government. I mean, how little does 1 in 6 billion votes count in such a system? The individual is crushed and the system always wins.

It's nice to see some philosophy, instead of the school book socialism that passes for intelligence here. Thank you Bob.

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guerilla

Ah, so you escaped proper indoctrination!

I would curse my parents for putting me through so many schools, but without those interruptions, I would probably just be another robot.

Get education.
Get job.
Get married.
Make babies.
Get divorce.
Get married.
Retire.
Play golf.
Die.

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