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Much has been said about the prospects of an Obama presidency and the threshold it represents in the US' political economic evolution. IF Obama's policies do move the US towards a more collectivist future, is it necessarily a bad thing? Do developed economies necessarily have to evolve to a more collectivist solution?

Let's take Europe's experience for example.

Plus side: Socialized health care. Welfare/unemployment/vacation/job protection benefits.

Negative side: Higher unemployment. Lower GDP growth. Higher taxes. Sometimes erratic delivery of 'guaranteed' services

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pax

It's funny when people always point out higher taxes in countries with socialised health care, like the U.S doesn't have to pay for it or something.

Whether it's a tax or an upfront payment, you're paying money for your healthcare - socialised is a much fairer and safer system.

I don't know about erratic delivery of garunteed services? Do you mean long waiting lists for elective surgeries? In Australia we have a part private (U.S system) and part public health insurance (like canada or UK system) so if you have the money you can go private and get your surgery, just like in the U.S you need the cash to get your surgery, only difference is here in Aus we can fall back on our public health insurance during tough times.

pat J

It would obviously be a good thing for everyone in the long run.

Dullspace

No educated person really thinks health care is free either under a socialized system or a free market system. The critiques of socialized health care are usually in regards to the efficiency in which government allocates resources. The free market provides well stocked grocery stores, more reliable cars, and pretty much anything else under the sun for cheaper than a centralized system. There are very few things that become more efficient as a result of pooling money in government and reallocating it rather than letting people make their own individual decisions so it would be a fallacy to assume that $x amount of spending is going to yield the same net benefit under either system.

losser

pax - walk into any hospital in the USA and need to get operated on. I 100% promise you that you will get operated on. It does not matter if you can pay or not. (sometimes worse if you have insurance) In germany at the moment doctors are refusing to treat people over an age in the 60's unless the patient can pay out of pocket because there is no money in the system. The european system is a bust! Look at france, they have high unemployment, they had riots because people could not get jobs. Go live there for a few years after living in America. They have bigger problems than we do!

tyr897

Where do you get higher unemployment from? Sure the European Union as a whole has a higher unemployment rate than the US, but lots of European countries (both in and out of EU) have a lower one (recent OECD figures, I'm sure I can dig up a link if required). The same goes for GDP growth as far as I can remember.

Europe is currently extremly diversified, with huge gaps between the different countries, which makes a direct comparison difficult. Italy is a totally different society, both economicly, cultural and politicly from for instance Scandinavia.

pat J

There are more countries in europe than Germany and France ya know. I don't think anyone is disputing that if you have the money, you can have the best treatment possible within no time... and that's where the problem lies.

rockhard

Financially, bad for entrepreneurs and rich people, good for poor people and the working class. It might be good for the rich people in the way that, more equally distributed wealth and less poverty means less crime.

erect

I'm educated and I totally think health care is free ... for the poor people. For middle and upper class it means you pay a premium for mediocre benefits that most of us would choose not to use.

Small Government FTW!!!

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HarveyJ

Ahhh, but the real issue is whether or not you will be crippled by debt for the rest of your natural days if you don't have the health insurance.
Germany is an outlier, and I think you're talking abotu that Turkish woman who had as stroke. Am I right? That's more about doctors not treating patients because they weren't citizens, and therefore not entitled to the use of the health system. Still fucked up though.

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glowleaf

You are talking bullshit. Literally.

I agree with PatJ.

And you guys have a wrong opinion on Europe. We are not the united states of Europe, we are a geographically close and totally varied group of different cultures. Things going on in one country, are nowhere to be seen in another.

Anyway, what obama wants to do is good for you in the long term, even if you dont know it yet.

Let the flames begin...

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PinstripeRambo

Read about overcrowding in Canadian and UK hospitals and you might think a little differently about government health care and EUtopia.

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pat J

Why do you think they are overcrowded?

Wait, wait! Could it be that not only people that can afford it can get treatment? You know.. like it should be.

glowleaf

There are still "public" overcrowded hospitals, and "expensive" normal ones. And healthcare is not the only issue. US economy is huge bubble, that is why it burst.

There have to be country regulations in everything. For example, what enron did, was unacceptable. No private company should be able to arbitrage electricity prices. And the same goes for all basic resources, water, highways, public transportation, even phone lines.

Europe regulates all that, there are laws and restrictions on everything. It doesnt always run smoothly, but the big picture is a lot clearer. The endgame is good for the little guy. The big guys have no problem anyway.

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erect

Or possibly it could be because people abuse a free system. No longer do you go to the emergency room for serious issues, you also head there for bad headaches, fever blisters and 100 degree temperatures (yes that's fahrenheit ya metric bitches).

Another issue with this is that when the government regulates the system some of the brightest minds decide not to become doctors because the income isn't what it used to be. Great, more laywers at Scott Richter's disposal. That's good news, right Jon?

Also glowleaf mentioned enron as a terrible evil. True, but we the people will pay a MUCH higher price for the FANNIE/FREDDIE fiasco. Expect more of this shit as the democrats grow the government.

This thread is full of European fucktards (yes pat, I'm looking at you) trying to cut us down to their level. Fuck that, we're a better system and all you can do is whine about it. So head on out and cast your vote for Obama ... ooh wait, you can't.

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Sohan

The amero, The North American Union. Shits already gonna happen.

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guerilla

Wow, is the question really "Is collectivism preferable"?

Absolutely un fucking believable.

Thousands of years, striving for personal and economic liberty, and people want to know if we should go back to gulags, mass poverty and collective serfdom.

Fucking brilliant. Party on democracy, rule of the mass of idiots, over the minority of competent, productive individualists.

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PinstripeRambo

Because there's no incentive to improve service when there's no alternatives (competition). Rampant abuse doesn't help things either.

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From a collectivist perspective, ALL wealth is a product of the legal, economic, and social resources produced by the collective. Hence, the "individual" owes the collective for becoming 'wealthy'. Following this 'social products' theory, tax rates that would be deemed confiscatory in 1980s Reagan era USA would be perfectly fine since "individual" wealth is just going back to its collectivist source.

It sounds good and everything but does it comport to how human individuals deal with incentives (or disincentives)?

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These are the small % of the population that create the vast majority of the wealth. They are the engine of any economy. Discourage them and the economy suffers.

Put it another way, has there EVER been a country that TAXED its way into prosperity and a higher standard of living?

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jenzkc

it's funny when people talk about Europe like it's one country.

Denmark, Sweden and Finland for example are socialist countries with high GDP, high standards of living, highly educated populaces and little unemployment. It will be a long time before America evolves into a country like one of those.

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bobsoap

Your question lacks substance. Recorded history that is relevant to the question is not able to provide an answer to a question like this; there is a lack of data.

Counterquestion - has ANY government that has deregulated and lowered taxes been able to create STABLE and FAIR living standards for ALL its citizens, along with a HEALTHY, PROSPERING, and LONG LIVING (read: not collapsing) economy?

popeye

We have the best health care in the world and it's free to poor people. Illegal's use this free system all the time. In my state anyone making under 30k recieves free dental and health.

Don't believe everything you hear from Democrats. They use health care as a way to get votes.

Europe and other countries that provide socialized health care are having all kinds of problems that we don't have to worry about.

When did socializem become the IN thing?

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popeye

Yet if they were attacked by ANYONE! the US would have to come in and save their country and way of life. I am not sure I would be happy knowing that my freedom was dependent on another countries willingness to bail me out if things got bad.

The cold hard facts are that there is and will be in the future countries that hate democracy and those countries that you mentioned are only a minor speed bumb in their ambitions.

Look at WW2..what role did the mentioned nations play in pushing back the Nazi tide?

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micfire

I would say it would a good thing for average Joe. Higher taxes mean better living for the poor. That's the way most of the european countries work. Rich pay A LOT of taxes to support the poor and boy do they pay taxes. Did you know that for example in Finland if you earn $1 million in a year as your salary, you'll pay about 49% to the goverment. But rarely anybody wants to take $1 million as a salary, there are ways to channel it thru small companies to avoid income taxation.

"It's bad for rich people" point doesn't hold water anymore. It really doesn't matter nowadays where you live tax-wise. If you just know what you are doing, you can always live in your "motherland" and your offshore company gets rich in a country where taxes don't exist. Then your poor existence in your "motherland" gets much more comfortable when this unknown offshore company buys a house or a car and gives you the right to use it. Of course when you have $2 mil. house and your yearly earnings are $0 officially, you will raise some red flags and get IRS up your ass. But as long as you consult financial lawyers and do everything by the law.. sorry, I mean loopholes, you're in the clear.

Btw, this is not for pussies and it takes some capital to be sure you have done everything by the law in your own country. As long as the money stays offshore, you are ok, but when it's time to buy something big -> consult lawyer how to do it.

Rusky

First of all Rich People and Corporation don't pay taxes. They transfer the cost to consumers (that would really help the average Joe). Better yet they'll go to China or Mexico (I would).
My state just lost the Freightliner Trucks production plant and over two thousand jobs to Mexico, because of our dumb ass governor (who happens to be far left and prays to Al Gore)

I believe in the trust but verify way of life.
Look at what the government did to our schools systems, how about our social security system, lets not even talk about Fannie and Freddie. Would you really trust them with your health care.

Fool me once, Shame on You.

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bobsoap

Dude... You gotta stop reiterating political keynotes like a monkey and start using your own brain. That Fox News moderator isn't the bible, and neither are the marketing driven bombastic speeches by your favorite canditate.

Do you know what a keynote is? It's a phrase that has been formulated by a marketing consultant, aimed at dropping a mix of opinion forming, usually emotionally loaded keywords that can have various goals, depending on the target.

Business people and politicians alike employ teams of skilled marketing professionals, along with the occasional psychologist, to write these keynotes for them. No CEO of any given global player takes a stand without having memorized a set of keynotes. No politician on the planet will step on a stage without having at least one keynote about any given topic.

Summary:
Keynotes are carefully formulated to get the point across in an emotional, colorful way that hits the target, sticks, and creates a certain mindset. And is likely to be repeated.

Call it marketing, if you like.

When you say things like "there are future countries that hate democracy", you repeat what was thrown at you in hopes that your uneducated mind would not ask the obvious question, but instead repeat this keynote in as many idiotic forum threads as possible.

Same applies for "domestic terrorist", for example. That sounds threatening, doesn't it? Guess why that keynote is being dropped so often by McCain and Palin when they hold a speech for the people of Mobile, Alabama and popeye.

Guess who repeats these phrases out of the box without asking the obvious question - actually, two questions:

1) WHY is this so?
2) WHY is this a keynote?

Why do countries exist who "hate democracy"? Well in most cases, they don't hate democracy per se, but rather compartmentalization of markets, enforced by organizations created by wealthy democracies such as the US and the EU. The reasons are not a general hate of democracy, but of a market that has closed its doors to the rest of the world in order to protect itself. Which is required if you understand economics; but naturally, this provokes anger among those who are not included.

Secondly, why is this a keynote?

Scare tactics. Bush wasn't the first to use it, McCain won't be the last Republican to utilize the power of creating a midset which is less likely to revolt against cutbacks in personal freedom.

You are not free. You are afraid of your own government. You are owned by your government. That is the reason for implementing scare tactics. Google it and educate yourself on these matters, read a book for a change (I'm not the first person to tell you this either, you know).

These are the questions you should ask if you want to prove credibility and intellect.

If you, on the other hand, continue to ramble about WWII and pitch cheesy and uninformed "we are the gloriousest country in the worlds"-type of facism, you only show people that you actually take a political speech for the bare truth and do not know crap about marketing. Yet you call yourself an internet marketer.

And your scare tactics that you adopted from the current government and a certain current canditate ("Yet if they were attacked by ANYONE!") - sorry, but they won't work outside of your solitude cloud in the depths of Unedcuationa.

pax

What I don't get is how the U.S spends SO MUCH more on healthcare as a percentage of GDP, in a private system and still have so many uninsured/covered?

The W.H.O ranks U.S health care system very low - for the country that has so much that is an epic fail.

ImagesAndWords

micfire & bobsoap; Very good posts.

You forgot the richest (per capita) of them all, Norway

And the same exact thing can be said about the US or any country for that matter. You guys also have "all kinds of problems" other countries don't have, but so what?. The thing is - ALL countries have their problems. They're sometimes different, sometimes similar. Doesn't make one almightier than another.

When did it become the OUT thing?
AND - why does it always have to be black and white? There are actually countries where socialism can live hand in hand with capitalism you know. Where there aren't poverty, where nobody goes hungry or without healthcare, where very very few go without jobs - yet, where people also can become very wealthy and rich and entrepreneurs can prosper. I live in such a country. The only thing I hate about it is the cold winters - but no politician can change that.

Do the rich get taxed more? Yes - as already has been pointed out; if you wanna get around that, you can. Financial advisors, clever reporting, etc. can cut the taxes so you can still enjoy your hard earned dough.

And in a country where the majority of people live happily, you get VERY low crime. The occasional murder here makes huge headline news - and 9 out of 10 times they are motivated out of jealousy where the criminal knew the victim. Not on random victims out of anger, despair, lust and greed caused by a frustrated people who feel unfairly treated. Again - we only have the types of murders that politics will never be able to change in any country.

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guerilla

Government creates nothing. People create things. Government redistributes (steals) and destroys (regulation).

Why are we concerned with ALL citizens? Citizens should be given an opportunity to succeed, by removing regulation and taxation, and it is up to each individual to earn his own dinner. Your ideal of a marxist utopia fails every time it is implemented. It usually fails badly.

Stability is not natural. Change (chaos) is a natural state of nature. And it is a natural state for man, and his lifetime.

If you want prosperity, get out of the way of the people who produce it. People who can manage capital, and create savings. People who work a second job and avoid debt. You don't do it by putting those people into a debt (fiat) money system, and then taxing them to create a glass ceiling.

Ever notice that more comes out of the US than anywhere else? Remember when the Berlin wall fell, and East Germany was exposed as being decades behind the rest of the world? Freedom works. We need more freedom, and the poor, will be able to feed and clothe themselves, instead of being subservient to a government that steals in their name, and (coincidentally) takes a healthy cut for themselves and their cronies.

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pax

I hope one day you live out of trash cans under a bridge and you will be wishing your fellow man would not be such a greedy fuck.

micfire

guerilla

I've been broke and almost homeless. I've been without food for days, and no change for a bus.

I have no right, to that which belongs to another. When we behave like animals, stealing through majority force, we're no longer men.

I will tell you one thing. Instead of being a little bitch, whining that I have nothing, and resenting my fellow man for his success, I will get my ass out from under that bridge, and find a way to survive and thrive.

To live dependent upon someone else, means that you are not free. I was born free, and I will die free. No man determines my happiness, and no man owes me anything. It's irrational to believe otherwise.

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guerilla

One more thing. Don't confuse charity, with the distance that voting for government force creates. When you vote for more taxes, or you protest for more socialization, you are advocating theft. If you want to give more, give more. You have no right to take from others, or to use the force of government to take from others.

That is theft, plain and simple. Now if someone came by their money dishonestly, that's different. But if a guy lives a simple life, works hard and makes a great wage, or builds up a business and reaps a great profit, you have no right to take, or redistribute the product of his blood sweat and tears. If you think you do, you are a fucking thief.

Be clear about that. Taking from others against their will, even with the government as the intermediary, and a majority vote as the "cover" doesn't not make it theft.

If you want to save the world, get the fuck off wickedfire, because you are probably lousy at making monies online with a bitch attitude, and get 3 jobs. Give away your material wealth to the less needy. Take food off of your own plate and give it to a hungry person.

But don't fucking steal from me.

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Rusky

Actually my city has an independent privately funded facility for Homeless people. There is even a program to help them get back on their feet. (Drug treatment, a place to stay, shower and clothing, help finding a job) The funny thing is, not everyone does it. I dont think most bums want to work. I donate to these organization out of my own goodwill. I dont need government taking my hard earned money. America is actually one of the most giving countries in the world. Thats how I got here, a very nice American couple sponsored my family out of their own will.

When will people start taking responsibility for their own life, instead of passing that responsibility to another. Responsibility is empowerment and its freedom.

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sampunk

when is the last time you went to a emergency room?

Rusky

Happens all the time. My brother in law works in an Emergency room. By law if its life threatening situation they have to treat you.

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nevele

this.
i heart norway.

Norway - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia -- int'l rankings and comparisons

one place on earth where the lack of unemployment is a problem:
Norway needs more unemployment - Aftenposten.no

one place on earth where poverty is not applicable:
Economy of Norway - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

and let's not overlook some of the greatest norwegian contributions to the world:
Youtube - Hot Babes, Norwegian!

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HarveyJ

Guerilla: point of clarification: Are you railing against ALL taxation as being theft? Or merely taxation that is spent on welfare, health and education?

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Janaic

Wow, I'm like 25% Norwegian and my dad keeps saying he wants to move to Norway, ha. Now I know why.

Janaic

Emergency rooms are a joke. My leg was split open, to the point where I got over 20 staples and a shit ton of stitches and I sat there bleeding all over the place, while fuck heads with the flu got treated.

ER's are a joke, next time I'll take a shot of Jack Daniels and sew myself up.

LazyHippy

I think imagesandwwords and others have said anything I could add... but if America get's more Europeanised I can see it turning out more like Italy than Norway, sadly.

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guerilla

What do you think Harvey?

I thought I had made a solid philosophical argument, but I see the soft marxists are going to pretend they never read it, and that in their minds, confiscating the wealth of the producers, the more your produce, the more you should be stolen from, is somehow socially justified.

So Harvey, do you agree with me that taxes are theft?

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pat J

Is taxes theft? Is criminalizing pedophilia/murder/drugs fascism? Yes and yes.

But I'd say that's pretty irrelevant. Some things are necessary for a society to work properly. Simply put: the end justifies the means. So deal with it and stop crying.

guerilla

"Are taxes theft"

There is a difference between criminalizing aggression (murder), and criminalizing personal choices (drugs). Sad you can't even distinguish between those two.

Of course you would. Not only do you not have a philosophy or principle guiding you, you make absolutely no coherent, rational sense.

Like this moronic statement. A society can only function with abuse of personal liberty and theft. Oh genius.

Yes, I believe Hitler, Stalin and Mao all subscribed to this ideology. Good job Pat. You're a fucking monster.

But then that's no surprise, because those are your socialist luminaries. Those are the heroes of the "common good", "state power", "country first", "dictatorship of the proletariat".

There will come a day when the looters like you, the petty little jealous people who would rather steal than carry the weight of your own "social ideas", are going to meet the fist of the productive, and the message will be "no more".

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pax

They stitch you up and send you on your way with a prescription for drugs that cost you an arm and a leg because you have no pharmaceutical benefits scheme.

They move you out as quick as you were rushed in because you have no insurance.

Fuck that.

HarveyJ

No, actually, I don't. But not for the reasons one would assume.
That said, I live in a country where government money isn't usually squandered on massively unnecessary things, and what government money is spent on socialised projects, are often shown to have a lot of positive flow on effects.

However, for those that persist in the idea that taxation = theft, then I submit to you: Good luck getting the free market to pay for roads, mass transit systems, public landscape & beautification projects, primary & secondary education, basic environmental standards (I'm not talking about electric cars here... I'm talking about acceptable levels of lead in the water supply (as in close zero)), and major R&D projects.
The government pays for a hell of a lot of services that people seem to just ignore that you really could not do without nowadays, as well as having been the major backer of some of the most important scientific advancements in the last century. Particularly in theoretical sciences that lead on to something useful.
Cases in point: Nearly all computer tech as we know it would not exist without tax payer funded research directed towards IBM in the 50s & DEC in the 70s.
Medicinal penicillin certainly wouldn't.

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Rusky

I'm not sure what country does a better job in an intensive care unit. Emergency rooms are not really intended to be a slow environment. Its a shame people use it for purposes that are minor like a headache or a flu. That's why there always full. I used to work for a hospital in the financial department. Insurance or No Insurance people will go through. I've seen people with large bills, 50k and up. The hospital I worked for usually gave a very big discount if people didn't have insurance and then set up a interest free payment plan. I know its not perfect, but Im not willing to let government screw up my health care. Just like they screwed social security, our schools, Fannie, should I go on. What makes people think they're going to do a better job. I say leave that responsibility in our hands, and get those blood sucking attorneys of Doctors asses. Like John Edwards; that prick made over $152 million from junk science lawsuits. Imagine how much medical care that could have bought.

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Rusky

Thats how you tear a new one without lubrication.

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guerilla

So the ends justify the means. But you answered incorrectly then. It's still theft, you're just willing to tolerate and encourage stealing from others, because you believe there are benefits to stealing.

It doesn't make it not theft.

Absolute nonsense. In the free market, there is no incentive to kill your customers.

The government pays NOTHING. People pay. Under threat of violence or imprisonment. Leonardo Da Vinci and Pythagoras didn't work under government subsidy.

How you can say this with a straight face is beyond me. I don't know where you get the idea that only government spending could create computers or medicine. If that was the case, then the Soviet Union, which totally controlled their entire economy, would have produced all manner of fantastic advances. Instead, when the USSR collapsed, people saw that they lived with very little, spending up to 2 hours each day in lines waiting for basic necessities like food and vodka. Everything they produced was outdated, and inferior. That was the result of a command economy.

Harvey, I regard you as one of the smart guys around here. What you're spewing is public education dogma. You're better than that. Take a walk on the wild side, free your mind and I guarantee your ass will follow. Because what you've posted is not only immoral (ends justify the means), it's factually incorrect.

I guess we need more funding for public education.

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