Chinese Lawyer Condemns Communist Government, Gets Tortured And Killed - Page 3 - WickedFire - Affiliate Marketing Forum

hellblazer · 02-07-2010, 06:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fatbat

your state tortures and murders innocent people...

You torture and murder innocent people...

No, they don't. You're a brainwashed leftist, so you consider interrogating terrorists 'torture'. You're a brainwashed leftist, so you consider wars to remove dictators 'torture'. You exploit prisoner abuse anomalies in order to support your narrative of it being an official U.S. policy. 2 Deaths? Please.

Try 100,000 deaths, with over 40,000 supporting stories. THAT'S an official policy of targeting and systematically killing a people through torture, which is what China does.

Furthermore, you TOTALLY IGNORE the known fact that terrorists are instructed to claim they were tortured while in U.S. custody. It is a strategy to smear the U.S.

Do you ever wonder why your feeble brain always leaps to the same conclusion? Why it's ever-ready to make moral equivalency arguments with the U.S.? Why it's virtually impossible for you to recognize genuine evil?

Maybe this is a reason:

Quote:

Sowing the seeds of anti-Americanism by discrediting the American president was one of the main tasks of the Soviet-bloc intelligence community during the years I worked at its top levels.

This same strategy is at work today, but it is regarded as bad manners to point out the Soviet parallels.

The communist effort to generate hatred for the American president began soon after President Truman set up NATO and propelled the three Western occupation forces to unite their zones to form a new West German nation.

The European leftists, like any totalitarians, needed a tangible enemy, and we gave them one. In no time they began beating their drums decrying President Truman as the "butcher of Hiroshima." We went on to spend many years and many billions of dollars disparaging subsequent presidents: Eisenhower as a war-mongering "shark" run by the military-industrial complex, Johnson as a mafia boss who had bumped off his predecessor, Nixon as a petty tyrant, Ford as a dimwitted football player and Jimmy Carter as a bumbling peanut farmer.

During the Vietnam War we spread vitriolic stories around the world, pretending that America's presidents sent Genghis Khan-style barbarian soldiers to Vietnam who raped at random, taped electrical wires to human genitals, cut off limbs, blew up bodies and razed entire villages. (hmmmmmm.....SOUND FAMILIAR???)

Those weren't facts.

They were our tales, but some seven million Americans ended up being convinced their own president, not communism, was the enemy. As Yuri Andropov, who conceived this dezinformatsiya war against the U.S., used to tell me, people are more willing to believe smut than holiness.

The final goal of our anti-American offensive was to discourage the U.S. from protecting the world against communist terrorism and expansion.

Sadly, we succeeded. After U.S. forces precipitously pulled out of Vietnam, the victorious communists massacred some two million people in Vietnam, Laos and Cambodia.

Another million tried to escape, but many died in the attempt. This tragedy also created a credibility gap between America and the rest of the world, damaged the cohesion of American foreign policy, and poisoned domestic debate in the U.S.

Like a breath of fresh air, eh? Let the propaganda flee your addled mind.

As for the tired meme that the Iraq War was founded on lies, BULLSHIT.

Saddam WAS a dictator, they WERE manufacturing biological weapons, he HAD been killing his own citizens, and he HAD been rewarding suicide bombers.

As for oft-repeated lie that they had no WMD, I hardly even debate this point anymore, but I'm so sick of hearing propaganda flow freely from your mouth I won't sit idly by and let it pass. Have a slice of some humble pie, motherfucker:

Quote:

The Soviet Union and all its bloc states always had a standard operating procedure for deep sixing weapons of mass destruction — in Romanian it was codenamed "Sarindar, meaning "emergency exit."

It was for ridding Third World despots of all trace of their chemical weapons if the Western imperialists ever got near them. We wanted to make sure they would never be traced back to us, and we also wanted to frustrate the West by not giving them anything they could make propaganda with.

All chemical weapons were to be immediately burned or buried deep at sea. Technological documentation, however, would be preserved in microfiche buried in waterproof containers for future reconstruction.

Chemical weapons, especially those produced in Third World countries, which lack sophisticated production facilities, often do not retain lethal properties after a few months on the shelf and are routinely dumped anyway. And all chemical weapons plants had a civilian cover making detection difficult, regardless of the circumstances.

Iraq, in my view, had its own "Sarindar" plan in effect direct from Moscow. It certainly had one in the past. Nicolae Ceausescu told me so, and he heard it from Leonid Brezhnev. KGB chairman Yury Andropov, and later, Gen. Yevgeny Primakov, told me so, too.

The Soviet bloc not only sold Saddam its WMDs, but it showed them how to make them "disappear."

Russia is still at it.

MONEY FACT>>>> Primakov was in Baghdad from December until a couple of days before the war, along with a team of Russian military experts led by two of Russia's topnotch "retired"generals: Vladislav Achalov, a former deputy defense minister, and Igor Maltsev, a former air defense chief of staff. <<<<<

They were all there receiving honorary medals from the Iraqi defense minister.

They clearly were not there to give Saddam military advice for the upcoming war—Saddam's Katyusha launchers were of World War II vintage, and his T-72 tanks, BMP-1 fighting vehicles and MiG fighter planes were all obviously useless against America.

"I did not fly to Baghdad to drink coffee," was what Gen. Achalov told the media afterward.

They were there orchestrating Iraq's "Sarindar" plan.

The U.S. military in fact, has already found the only thing that would have been allowed to survive under the classic Soviet "Sarindar" plan to liquidate weapons arsenals in the event of defeat in war — the technological documents showing how to reproduce weapons stocks in just a few weeks.

It was just a few days after this last "Disclosure," after a decade of intervening with the U.N. and the rest of the world on Iraq's behalf, that Gen. Primakov and his team of military experts landed in Baghdad — even though, with 200,000 U.S. troops at the border, war was imminent, and Moscow could no longer save Saddam Hussein. Gen.

Primakov was undoubtedly cleaning up the loose ends of the "Sarindar" plan and assuring Saddam that Moscow would rebuild his weapons of mass destruction after the storm subsided for a good price.

The United States won a brilliant military victory, demolishing a dictatorship without destroying the country, but it has begun losing the peace.

While American troops unveiled the mass graves of Saddam's victims, anti-American forces in Western Europe and elsewhere, spewed out vitriolic attacks, accusing Washington of greed for oil and not of really caring about weapons of mass destruction, or exaggerating their risks, as if weapons of mass destruction were really nothing very much to worry about after all.

And that's hardly the only evidence. Saddam's own general says the weapons were removed directly prior to the invasion. But that's not something you'd read in Daily Kos, would you?

hellblazer · 02-07-2010, 06:20 PM

As for the final drone who reared his head in this thread's waning hours and offered his meager 'thoughts' to absurd accolades by his sycophants, let's correct the painfully obvious fallacies.

Quote:

Originally Posted by xmcp123

When you endorse torture, you lose the ability to call others out on it..

This statement obviously makes sense, and would apply here IF IT WAS TRUE.

But it's not.

The truth is I've never 'endorsed torture'. Braindead liberals and useful idiots like the two posters quoted above conflate interrogation tactics, disciplinary problems and righteous wars with 'torture' - hysterical and inflammatory charges, not to mention baseless misrepresentations.

The simple truth is that you can stand in America and bash this country, bash its principles, and smear its actions - all with no consequences. You can be an atheist, a Rastafarian, agnostic, or Christian without suffering any consequences. You can criticize the government or its leaders as harshly or dishonestly as you wish, and suffer absolutely no physical consequences whatsoever.

In China, however, you can't even say you adhere to VALUES. The most violently persecuted group isn't even a religion - it's a group that agrees on certain values. What seditious, horrific beliefs does this group hold to, you might wonder? Tolerance, compassion, and truthfulness.

The same goes for Christians. The same goes for anyone who criticizes the government, or the Communist Party, or the leaders. Expect arrest, imprisonment, and if you're lucky, a quick death. Most times, however, you'd be tortured off and on for years, while your body slowly withers away. Many people have simply gone insane.

So don't listen to these loons who have been so indoctrinated with propaganda they no longer possess control of their faculties. It's a Pavlovian reaction - they are virtually programmed to respond in a certain way. What would seem obvious to you and me is alien to them. The clear distinction between the leader of the free world and one of the most repressive dictatorships is blurry and muddled to them. It's not only damaging, but downright dangerous to listen to them. As Dispel pointed out, they are LITERALLY "useful idiots", recirculating propaganda simply through their lack of discernment. After being thoroughly exposed and humiliated, the best reaction is to ignore them.

There is a real war going on. People in China fight and die for rights we take for granted. It would be irresponsible of us to ignore them and NOT fight for them. The U.S. should cut all ties with the criminal regime in China and stop supporting them in the UN, until their leaders have been prosecuted and convicted for genocide against their own people. That's the real point.

ricdes · 02-07-2010, 06:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hellblazer

hellblazer, 60 years ago you would've been be one of these:

JMan1234 · 02-07-2010, 06:27 PM

I was going to add something, but Hellblazer said it all.

Nice post.

gerMAN · 02-07-2010, 06:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ricdes

hellblazer, 60 years ago you would've been be one of these:

it's ON!

Andrew Scherer · 02-07-2010, 06:39 PM

Did Nazi officers really have skulls on their hats? Thats badash

Dispel · 02-07-2010, 06:39 PM

Are we playing the WW2 name calling game now are we?

Which of you fucks is this guy then? The one on the left?

70 Years Ago Today One Man’s Thoughts

Dispel · 02-07-2010, 06:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andrew Scherer

Did Nazi officers really have skulls on their hats? Thats badash

only the SS did. its a common insignia

xmcp123 · 02-07-2010, 06:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dispel

See, in this post you're actually making valid arguments, not just being a retard like Fatbat. I still disagree with you, but I respect your position. Does torture bring valid information? I really don't know, and I dont know why you're so sure it doesn't. Sometimes it probably does.

Well first off, the only example that US had that it actually worked was recently withdrawn by the agent who said it.
If you really want to get in depth: http://www.fas.org/irp/dni/educing.pdf
^--ridiculously comprehensive paper on interrogation/reliability/history/psychology.
Here's an excerpt:

Quote:

Little social science literature speaks directly to the effectiveness of coercive
tactics in educing accurate, useful information, but there is literature on how
coercive infl uence strategies, such as inducing fear, affects relationships. The induction of fear or pain appears to be a critical element. If a source views the educer as the cause of his aversive situation, he may react against it by increasing
his resistance and determination not to comply (see the next section). Research has shown consistently that recipients of punishment or aversive stimuli do distinguish between unpleasant sensations that are self-infl icted or naturally occurring and those intentionally caused by another person. One implication for educing information seems to be that the source should not view the primary educer as the cause of any negative consequences; someone else should wear
the black hat if necessary. Ideally, the source should perceive that he alone is responsible for his situation.

More generally, social science research indicates that a perception of coercion can negatively affect the tenor of the relationship between the educer and the source
and decrease the likelihood that the source will comply or cooperate

^--incompatible with torture.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dispel

If someone kidnapped my sister and didn't tell me where she was and I got hold of them and they won't tell me where she is I'll probably be punching them in the face til they tell me.

Personal conflict is different than government conflict. But also you seem to have this false idea that we're using torture on a tight timeline, when that's never actually appeared to be the case.
We have time to legally make life shit for these guys. US Military prisons are not exactly glorious, even without waterboarding. Small, dark cells, utter isolation, etc.
But I'm being dragged into an 'effectiveness' argument here, and that's not the point.

The point is: It's mother fucking illegal, unconstitutional, and it's our Government. If you lose control and break some guy's face in, that's part of life. It happens all the time. But our government does not have that flexibility. Our government cannot get probation, cannot go to jail, and sets the tone for how the international community behaves. Hell, their actions torturing people here puts our soldiers at higher risk for being tortured.

Quote:

I won't be wiretapping their phone, tailing their friends and tracing their bank accounts. Yes, the information can be gotten by other means, but other means take much longer. My argument is that torture is almost always wrong, but there may be extreme circumstances when its a last resort.

And some circumstances are worse then others. Its not always all the same, as even you've admitted.

I 'admitted' it? Jesus, you make it sound like it's a confession. I said that all reasons for torturing someone are not 'equal' on the moral scale. That does not mean that any are even 'close to ok'.

Quote:

as for "war on terror" and muslims, well personally I believe there is a "war on terror" and then there is a culture "war". War on terror is a war against terrorists who happen to be muslims, its not a war on Islam. There is a completely separate "battle" - the cultural one, where secular democracy is up against Islamism (and other totalitarian political systems) and this is not and should not be a violent "battle" - it is the battle of ideas. The two should never be confused. The West is winning the war on terror. However in some parts of the West, in parts of Europe for example, the West is losing the battle of ideas, and this is in large part due to useful idiots like Fatbat.

You do realize that is how they fight out there, right? We are not winning the war on terror. This is how wars are fought out there. They last generations, and the weaker of the 2 armies just harasses the other until their will to fight or their money gives out.
It's guerilla warfare.

Quote:

As for the drugs argument, sure, I've watched people shoot up heroin, cocaine, speed, ecstasy... I know quite a lot about drugs and their physiological effects, so my opinion is that shooting up recreationally is not a good idea with any of them. However you're merely being defensive here, when you know your argument had a hole in it the size of Baghdad.

What the hell? It was a semantic problem in a logical argument. I wasn't being 'defensive' (though now I am), I was being dismissive. That's not even a "hole".
The drug analogy makes sense if you stick to the common perceptions that
1)Cocaine is bad
2)Heroin is worse.
3)A father doing cocaine would have less influence over his son doing something similar. Even if it's slightly worse. 'Degrees of wrong' is a shitty argument to have to try and make.

Even if you disagree with them, it's not too hard to figure it out for the purposes of an analogy. Your opinion of the drugs is completely beside the point.

Dispel · 02-07-2010, 07:07 PM

As my response to your "torture" argument would simply be a paraphrasing of the Stratfor analysis I already posted, I'll just refer you to that. the 'timeline' context is given there as is the context for my previous argument. I don't agree with systematic torture, as I said, its an extreme measure, for extreme cases.

re war on terror/culture war, you've completely missed the point. the two are completely different, although you could say the extremists on both sites blur the lines, because it is to their advantage. not really the argument in this thread though, so lets leave it.

and the drugs argument I'm just going to leave, it has no place here and you're just extrapolating from stereotypes, not any objective reasoning.

xmcp123 · 02-07-2010, 07:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hellblazer

As for the final drone who reared his head in this thread's waning hours and offered his meager 'thoughts' to absurd accolades by his sycophants, let's correct the painfully obvious fallacies.

This statement obviously makes sense, and would apply here IF IT WAS TRUE.

But it's not.

The truth is I've never 'endorsed torture'. Braindead liberals and useful idiots like the two posters quoted above conflate interrogation tactics, disciplinary problems and righteous wars with 'torture' - hysterical and inflammatory charges, not to mention baseless misrepresentations.

"Haha, Obama Not Banning Torture After All" - Thread started by you, calling it torture.

"Obama Willing to Kill Civilians, but not Torture Terrorists" - Also started by you

"Torture Works - Now Shut the Fuck Up" - also started by you.
[rant]

Quote:

There is a real war going on. People in China fight and die for rights we take for granted. It would be irresponsible of us to ignore them and NOT fight for them. The U.S. should cut all ties with the criminal regime in China and stop supporting them in the UN, until their leaders have been prosecuted and convicted for genocide against their own people. That's the real point.

I understand and respect the struggle of many in China. I personally don't equate them to the US. I just think the positions taken by many on this are completely hypocritical.

Fatbat · 02-07-2010, 07:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hellblazer

No, they don't. You're a brainwashed leftist, so you consider interrogating terrorists 'torture'. You're a brainwashed leftist, so you consider wars to remove dictators 'torture'. You exploit prisoner abuse anomalies in order to support your narrative of it being an official U.S. policy. 2 Deaths? Please.

Of course it's official US policy. The orders to torture came from Bush and Rumsfeld directly. These weren't anomalies.

2 deaths is two too many, and it's being reported as "at least" 2 (you know when you see one cockroach, there's 100s more where it came form?), and they might not have even been "bad guys"...

"Dilawar, who died on December 10, 2002, was a 22-year-old Afghan taxi driver and farmer who weighed 122 pounds and was described by his interpreters as neither violent nor aggressive."

"It would be many months before Army investigators learned a final horrific detail: Most of the interrogators had believed Mr. Dilawar was an innocent man who simply drove his taxi past the American base at the wrong time."

Quote:

Originally Posted by hellblazer

Try 100,000 deaths, with over 40,000 supporting stories. THAT'S an official policy of targeting and systematically killing a people through torture, which is what China does.

What about the 100,000+ Iraqi deaths (which may be as many as a million, depending on who's reports you believe)? They weren't all terrorists.

Now admittedly I've gone off on a bit of a tangent here with the Iraqi body count and WMDs but persecuting and killing a people comes in many forms.

Quote:

Originally Posted by hellblazer

Furthermore, you TOTALLY IGNORE the known fact that terrorists are instructed to claim they were tortured while in U.S. custody. It is a strategy to smear the U.S.

Yes, the photographs and coroner reports must all be a pack of lies.

Quote:

Originally Posted by hellblazer

As for oft-repeated lie that they had no WMD, I hardly even debate this point anymore, but I'm so sick of hearing propaganda flow freely from your mouth I won't sit idly by and let it pass. Have a slice of some humble pie, motherfucker:

And that's hardly the only evidence. Saddam's own general says the weapons were removed directly prior to the invasion. But that's not something you'd read in Daily Kos, would you?

So when Bush, Cheney and Powell all admitted that the whole thing had been made up you didn't believe them, instead you believe a story based on a second hand account that an Iraqi general got from someone else? That's a bit of a stretch don't you think?

Nowhere did I condone the horrific things the Chinese do to their own people. In my quest to see the world, I'll pass on a good portion of Asia because of the way they treat people. I never said the US was as bad as China. The point is not to be such a hypocrite because it's hard to take you seriously.

Fatbat · 02-07-2010, 07:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hellblazer

There is a real war going on. People in China fight and die for rights we take for granted. It would be irresponsible of us to ignore them and NOT fight for them. The U.S. should cut all ties with the criminal regime in China and stop supporting them in the UN, until their leaders have been prosecuted and convicted for genocide against their own people. That's the real point.

As opposed to the fake wars going on elsewhere? Should the rest of the world not treat the US as you would expect the US treat China until they stop killing 100s of thousands of innocent people with their bombs and guns? Until they stop engaging in by proxy meddling in other country's affairs?

kblessinggr · 02-07-2010, 07:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ricdes

hellblazer, 60 years ago you would've been be one of these:
http://www.diggerhistory.info/images.../Waffen-SS.jpg

I'm surprised it took til page 3 to invoke godwin's law with the shit thats been spouted since page 1.

supersundas · 02-07-2010, 10:13 PM

Andrew Scherer · 02-07-2010, 10:18 PM

Rt.com hates America, mom, and apple pie! ZOMG Blasphemy

That M-16 isn't a weapon, it's a "peacekeeper".

Andrew Scherer · 02-07-2010, 10:20 PM

ricdes · 02-08-2010, 12:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kblessinggr

I'm surprised it took til page 3 to invoke godwin's law with the shit thats been spouted since page 1.

bra, that dude is saying torturing other people for your own "good" is OK. so did the nazis. i was surprised as well. so I took the chance!

02-07-2010, 06:27 PM	#104 (permalink)
JMan1234 Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Texas Posts: 497 iTrader: 1 / 100%	I was going to add something, but Hellblazer said it all. Nice post. Share Share this post on Digg Del.icio.us Technorati Twitter

02-07-2010, 06:39 PM	#106 (permalink)
Andrew Scherer MarketersCenter.com Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Mexico Posts: 3,848 iTrader: 76 / 100%	Did Nazi officers really have skulls on their hats? Thats badash Share Share this post on Digg Del.icio.us Technorati Twitter __________________ WF Threads: Press Release Marketing Machine: The Best Quality Writing and Syndication Online

02-07-2010, 06:39 PM	#107 (permalink)
Dispel Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Sydney Posts: 988 iTrader: 22 / 100%	Are we playing the WW2 name calling game now are we? Which of you fucks is this guy then? The one on the left? 70 Years Ago Today One Man’s Thoughts Share Share this post on Digg Del.icio.us Technorati Twitter __________________ ___The MicroAffiliate___

02-07-2010, 07:07 PM	#110 (permalink)
Dispel Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Sydney Posts: 988 iTrader: 22 / 100%	As my response to your "torture" argument would simply be a paraphrasing of the Stratfor analysis I already posted, I'll just refer you to that. the 'timeline' context is given there as is the context for my previous argument. I don't agree with systematic torture, as I said, its an extreme measure, for extreme cases. re war on terror/culture war, you've completely missed the point. the two are completely different, although you could say the extremists on both sites blur the lines, because it is to their advantage. not really the argument in this thread though, so lets leave it. and the drugs argument I'm just going to leave, it has no place here and you're just extrapolating from stereotypes, not any objective reasoning. Share Share this post on Digg Del.icio.us Technorati Twitter __________________ ___The MicroAffiliate___

02-07-2010, 10:13 PM	#115 (permalink)
supersundas Affiliate Markedurrr Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: On the interwebz Posts: 158 iTrader: 0 / 0%	Share Share this post on Digg Del.icio.us Technorati Twitter __________________ LOL YOU RACIST!

02-07-2010, 10:18 PM	#116 (permalink)
Andrew Scherer MarketersCenter.com Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Mexico Posts: 3,848 iTrader: 76 / 100%	Rt.com hates America, mom, and apple pie! ZOMG Blasphemy That M-16 isn't a weapon, it's a "peacekeeper". Share Share this post on Digg Del.icio.us Technorati Twitter __________________ WF Threads: Press Release Marketing Machine: The Best Quality Writing and Syndication Online

02-07-2010, 10:20 PM	#117 (permalink)
Andrew Scherer MarketersCenter.com Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Mexico Posts: 3,848 iTrader: 76 / 100%	Share Share this post on Digg Del.icio.us Technorati Twitter __________________ WF Threads: Press Release Marketing Machine: The Best Quality Writing and Syndication Online

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