crossfittn

Basically, almost every Caleb I've been exposed to in life has made me want to grab his head and grind his face into a tree. Mostly.

Recently I've been getting very fit and making progress faster than all the Calebs at my gym. I was introduced to a few techniques by my friend who is a personal trainer who's into short high intensity workouts.

So I wrote up this quick guide to help you experience the same. It's a great way to get fit without spending more than 15-20 minutes 3-5 days a week.

Click here to read the article on my blog. OH and yep.. It's on my main site so it's kindof... irrelevant to you guys - sorry about that.

Anyway, let me know what you think about it, and if you have any questions!

DaveEMG

WTF?

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crossfittn

Dave you're definitely not the first one who has responded to one of my posts saying "WTF??"

But seriously if you want to get fit take a look at Crossfit.com (no affiliation here... although I would love to start a crossfit meetup in TN)

If anyone else here is like me and spends almost all day in front of the computer, I figure this might help out.

Jameel

1. Make jocks REALLY uncomfortable and watch insecurities come out.

thx

geekcognito

Did a lot of those exercises or variations of them while I was in the service. Most of it is good stuff. Just remember (especially if you are a beginner) to start slow and stop if you feel *real* pain. There's no shame in building up steadily.

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"While you have lost some money, you have also gained some knowledge. So in the end you may have not lossed at all. Good luck bro." ~ Sumitdhawan09

John

Just start juicing, do a nice big cycle of deca and winny and you'll get the results you want.

__________________

crossfittn

JUICING? Hell no.. I hate those guys.

Nice, Chucktown! It is really fun and my times are getting better. Recently my friend blew me a away with this though:

It took him 15 minutes to do:

21 Swings (55)
21 Pull-ups
21 Swings (55)
21 Burpees
21 Swings (55)
21 Box Jumps
21 Swings (55)
21 Wall Ball
21 Swings (55)
21 Sumo Deadlift High Pull (32kg/24kg)
21 Swings (55/35)

I'm going to try it this weekend. My time is going to be at least 20 minutes, I bet.

John

Your not a man if you work out and don't juice.

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geekcognito

Haha. Well I guess I should be glad this isn't an exercise/bodybuilding forum.

Juice or don't juice. I don't care. Just know what you're getting into the first time you stick that needle in your ass cheek.

__________________

"Never confuse movement with action." ~Ernest Hemingway

"While you have lost some money, you have also gained some knowledge. So in the end you may have not lossed at all. Good luck bro." ~ Sumitdhawan09

crossfittn

John, all I have to say to you is:

The obliterated mollusk among the corncob pipes, on top of a squirrel homebase with a well-spoken man....

...is not a complete sentence.

shaggz

Yeah baby, i can't even wipe my own ass, but i am HUGE!


(sidenote.....this dude's pic was NOT photoshopped. i saw a special on this freak on either the discovery or the learning channel. He became obsessed with having the largest arms on the planet and became a juice dealer to get hold of every drug that could help him get that)

znine

CrossFit is alright for athletic performance if you need the commercialized stimulation. If you are a skinny bastard and want to get buff, the Zone diet and a lot of the CrossFit methods are not going to be the most effective way to go (PM me if you want a few pointers/good sources of information).

And don't buy any fucking pills or injections. Just a good multi vitamin (which you should have anyways) and a few other supplements. Do your research on bodybuilding sites.

90%+ of people who fail at their exercise program don't have a proper diet.

poolemit

what is then? i'm a skinny bastard and don't want to be

Jon

Are you guys trying to say that being a skinny bastard is something to be ashamed of?!

Here's my issue..

I am tall and thin, a smoker, and I don't have a very solid diet. I'm also on Adderall, so working out during those hours is NOT something I can do. I can also eat almost any type of food, and a shitload of it, and never gain an ounce, and sometimes I'll just lose it doing absolutely nothing. So you tell me, aside for the "you should stop smoking" crap, what would you recommend I do to start gaining muscle and mass with my type of metabolism and situation?

Give me a diet plan and workout routine. I do have a home gym with pretty much every type of machine and weight training.

Show me how to get to a normal weight/size and I'll show you how to make money.

__________________

poolemit

yea i am in your boat. i sit on my ass all day, eat calorie-rich food all the time and cant gain any weight. fuck.

Aequitas

Except for the Addrall I'm exactly the same, Tall and skinny, I can eat anything and never gain a pound, I smoke, and I can loose weight by doing very little, I've tried working out every single day for well over a year and still don't build up muscle mass.

I weigh 130 pounds right now and I'd be happy to be at 160 minimum but nothing I do helps and there are lots like me and Jon so if you could solve this problem you could make some good money.

Otherwise I don't really feel I need to change because women like big muscled guy's, yeah sure I've lost out on some pussy because of it but you know what I could care less, I'm fucking smarter then hell and I hang out in any fucking crowd I want, anywhere from nerds to complete drug dealers and my personality is one of a kind.

I'd much rather be original and one of a kind then worry about looking a certain way, fuck it, most women think I'm cute, good enough, fuck everyone else who cannot accept me.

Ok a bit off topic here but you get the point.

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barman

Losing or gaining weight is all about calories. If you want to lose weight, you consume less calories than you burn throughout the day. You want to gain weight then consume more calories than you burn throughout the day. It's as simple as that. 3500 calories = 1 lb. If you're overeating by 500 cals a day, then you should gain a pound a week.

The problem with skinny or fat bastards who complain about "I can't lose weight!" OR "I can't gain a pound!" is because you're not paying attention to what you're eating. If you actually counted everything you consumed...you would eventually be able to pinpoint your problem. As a fat bastard who "can't lose weight" I know its because of what I eat. If I actually tracked what what I was eating and burning throughout the day, I'd easily be able to predict where I'm going to be tomorrow.

Losing or gaining weight is 70% diet. The rest is your lifestyle (how often you exercise, what you do, job, etc.). Lay a foundation and the rest will come.

Better Body Journal » Blog Archive » Laying the Foundation - Part 1

I present you skinny bastards with this. Its from my favorite weightlifting website out there. It goes in depth about pretty much what I just talked about. Testosterone Nation - The Skinny Bastard Diet

__________________

poolemit

thanks a lot that skinny bastard diet article is awesome. too bad i'm not disciplined for shit

barman

I got the same problem losing weight. It's simple and obvious. Just like successful online marketers preach testing, tracking, and everything else to newbies...most of them don't listen because it sounds too easy or think results are related to something else.

__________________

JamesH

I'm just like you Jon, minus the pills and cigs. I gave up on trying to gain bulk. I'm just lifting to get stronger. Just be consistent, and if you're getting stronger, the muscle and size should come with it. Of course you won't look like that fucker at the top of the screen, but you'll notice that your muscles are fuller and hell you might even get bigger.

geekcognito

I was a rescue swimmer and military police in the military and I was also a fitness coordinator in the reserves. I weighed 125 lbs when I joined. I've been out for a few years now, but I'm still damn fit. I weigh 185 lbs at 5'7" and I have a very low body fat. I still smoke about two packs a day. I'm not bragging, I'm just saying it can be done. I'm not freakishly huge and don't want to be. But I can tell you that it feels damn good to take off my shirt at the beach and get the looks I do. And I don't have to sacrifice fun (like drinking, eating what I want, etc) to do it.

If you guys are really interested, I'll show you EXACTLY what you need to do, to eat, and what to take to put some muscle on with 3 to 4 one hour workouts per week and very minimal lifestyle change.

But you have to actually DO IT.

Oh, and keep away from the fucking juice. That shit will shrink your nuts and make your hair fall out. Not to mention back acne, mood swings, isolationism, etc. Fuck that. What's the use being muscular if you're bald, covered with zits, and so angry you could chew through a fucking tire?

If you guys are interested, I'll get a post up about it tomorrow.

__________________

"Never confuse movement with action." ~Ernest Hemingway

"While you have lost some money, you have also gained some knowledge. So in the end you may have not lossed at all. Good luck bro." ~ Sumitdhawan09

shaggz

You should just hire a top notch personal trainer. Have them do their sessions at your home gym. You have the resources to do that. With your metabolism and the fact that you're on adderall, putting on muscle weight is obviously going to be a challenge.

znine

Yo Jon, Aequitas, poolemit, etc I know exactly what you are saying about being a skinny bastard and nothing making you look any different because I was there. I'll post something useful when I'm less drunk and it's not 3:20 AM, but it's definitely possible for you to get in shape and not be a "skinny bastard." Don't listen to what any girls or whoever says, it makes a HUGE difference in every part of your life. I don't mean to sound like some lame ebook douche but it's true. At least if you're a fat chick society will tell you that you suck but if you're a skinny guy you'll just get shit on and be taught to accept it because you're ok since you're not overweight.

I'll tell you one thing, if you're not willing to put in the same kind of effort that many of you have clearly put into your work, you're not going to get too far. You need to do your workout religiously, SLEEP 8+ HOURS PER NIGHT, FOLLOW A DIET THAT PROMOTES GAINING MASS (this is where 90% of people go wrong), etc.

And Aequitas, nice determination, but working out every day isn't going to build any muscle, muscle is created when you're resting not at the gym.

Anyways, time to pass out.

P.S. Drinking is bad for you, oops.

MisterX

What a Frankenstein of a thread.

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joe

What's juice?

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"Make no small plans."

cyberworkspace

impossible. most likely. at least if you are aiming to gain weight and to sustain that level. of course, one could only say so for sure, after taking a blood sample and doing quite some more tests, but the keyword is: genetic predisposition.

to explain this, it only needs some simple, unalterable facts:

1.) you only have a certain amount of muscle cells. no training whatsoever increases the number of muscle strains or cells. you can only alter the cells metabolism and increase the amount of protein / water / fat stored inside these cells (hypertrophie) by training.

2.) as the number of cells is fixed, so is the physical arrangement of your muscles and bones. the diameter of the endpoint of your muscle which is attached to the bone has a huge impact onto the maximum lift-effect your muscle can achieve. simple physics. this is in favor of the smaller guys, as naturally the diameter and length of their muscles is relatively larger than that of skinny but larger guys (in %). hence, they can lift relatively more, as they have to put less effort into it. that's one reason, why most bodybuilders are relatively small guys.

3.) your metabolism is in general very much dependent on your genetics. the amount of hormones, in particular testosterone, dictates e.g. a lot of your intra-muscular metabolism. then there comes insuline, igf-1, oestrogen, melatonin, orexin and hypocretin, to name only a few hormones that strongly influence your metabolism.

4.) you smoke. a lot. no further points needed. this influences your hypothalamus more than any sport could do

so, the conclusion? there are imho two choices: you either feel good and like yourself the way you are. then stay like this. you don't like the feel you look like? then ask yourself why, because there is not much anyone can do about it.

ah yeah: and stop smoking. i did halöf a year ago coming from 2 packages and it is a great thing to do. never knew how much i was missing out on that taste of great food and a good wine.

ah. and i gained 20 pounds too

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cyberworkspace

slang for anabolics, e.g. nandrolon.

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joe

What's the normal weight for someone 6'2" like myself? I'm a skinny bastard and I'm going to try and gain some weight.

I just calculated my daily calorie intake, I'm only taking in 1500 calories...

I don't smoke, don't take any medicines, get 8 hours of sleep a night, and do some degree of exercise.

Any suggestions?

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cyberworkspace

try this one. should give you an idea, because it needs more info than you gave. especially your age and your frame is important.

but to be really sure, please consult a doctor.

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drugoon

just my opinion: calculating calories and over planning the training routines is the biggest mistake for a beginner (since one is skinny he is a beginer no matter how much time he spent on the gym). Also smoking has to little to do with this in my opinion. I am not skinny (in fact just oposite) but I trained with skinny guys and saw excellent results on them. Everything can be achieved but you must forget about rules... or at least build your own rules.

When one starts training he must concentrate on his body, on every muscle he trains and not on the training routine (how many and what exercises , how many repetitions).

An example about diets: everybody is scared of eating fat food, well some weightlifters only eat fat food and guess what: they are champions, the health is perfect and yes they are not fat...

Ok... I can talk about this all day long I guess but I don't really think you want that so I get back to my work ... good luck to you all...

shaggz

Very good post, cyberworkspace.

To add to your point #1: HGH users actually grow new muscle cells. That is one reason that it's use is so widespread in activites where muscle mass can help performance.

About #2: You are dead on regarding the effect of muscle attachment points in relation to strength. However, that has no correlation to the ability of an individuals ability to increase muscle mass through weight training. It just means that two people might be lifting different amounts of weight to reach a failure point. The reason why shorter guys make up the majority of bodybuilders is because of proportions. A short guy's 20" arms will appear larger than a tall guy's 20" arms on stage. Since modern bodybuilding is all about the 'perception' of freakish size, the shorter guys have the advantage.

You skinny guys out there are referred to in bodybuilding slang as 'hard-gainers'. You can find some forums out there with advice, good and bad, in relation to getting the results you are after. A lot of people make the mistake of assuming that what works for them MUST work for everyone else. As cyberworkspace very nicely explained, your genetics 'are what they are'. You need to experiment to find the right program that can get the most out of what you were given to work with.

geekcognito

Er...this is extremely misleading. When you exert a muscle in any way, you are actually making tiny tears in the fabric of your muscles. I don't care if it's done by working out in the gym or running or lifting a television. Any time you can feel that muscle "burn" it's tearing down, ever-so-slightly. The food you eat and water you drink then work to "rebuild" those torn fibers while you sleep. Which is why protein is so important, not to mention amino acids (located in the meat you eat) and sleep is so important, because as someone said before, your muscles grow while you rest, not in the gym.

So while you may not be "growing new cells," you are actually volumizing and growing your exisiting muscle cells as your body deems necessary to meet the new demands you are putting on them by working out.


Kind of true, but also misleading. Guys that are interested in this should look into the three main body types: ectomorphs, mesomorphs, and endomorphs. Here is a fairly informative article to give you an idea of the differences of each: Body Type Information - Ectomorph, Mesomorph, Endomorph

An excerpt:

The ECTOMORPH

• Definitive "Hard Gainer"
• Delicate Built Body
• Flat Chest
• Fragile
• Lean
• Lightly Muscled
• Small Shouldered
• Takes Longer to Gain Muscle
• Thin

The MESOMORPH

• Athletic
• Hard Body
• Hourglass Shaped (Female)
• Rectangular Shaped (Male)
• Mature Muscle Mass
• Muscular Body
• Excellent Posture
• Gains Muscle Easily
• Gains Fat More Easily Than Ectomorphs
• Thick Skin

Endomorph

• Soft Body
• Underdeveloped Muscles
• Round Physique
• Weight Loss is Difficult
• Gains Muscle Easily Like the Mesomorph.

SO while there are certainly differences between body compositions, the human body is a remarkable machine capable of overcoming most of it's predermined roles. There are, of course, limitations but we aren't looking to become "Flex Magazine" cover muscle-bound douchebags, either. Just looking to put some muscle on guant frames. Which is entirely possible.





Ok, what did you Google to get this info? Of course metabolism depends on genetics. So does your height, heart size, and the way your balls hang. Exersising actually does INCREASE your metabolism, causing you to burn fat and build muscle more efficiently at all hours of the day because your body is accomodating itself to meet the new demands put on it by working out.

I smoke. A lot. I have for 12 years. I've also gone from 125 lbs to over 180 lbs while LOSING fat in less than two years while doing so. Smoking hurts, of course, but not enough to kill your progress completely. I smoke because I like to and I don't feel like quiitting yet. But I'm not going to limit myself to being skinny just because of it. THat's a defeatist attitude.

THat's a big ol' stinky pile of B.S.

Aaaaannd the obligatory "stop smoking" comment. Don't you think that every one reading this thread already KNOWS the smoking is bad for you? Noone asked how to quit smoking. They asked how to put masson a skinny body frame. I'm telling them it CAN be done because I've done it and I've helped a lot of other guys in the military and out do it. You're saying it CAN'T be done but I don't think you have a lot of personal experience with it, other than copy/pasting things you googled. So no offense, dude, but your advice is dead wrong.

Anyone can gain fat from quitting smoking.

__________________

"Never confuse movement with action." ~Ernest Hemingway

"While you have lost some money, you have also gained some knowledge. So in the end you may have not lossed at all. Good luck bro." ~ Sumitdhawan09

Juicify

I saw that guy on tv too. His arms got inflamated and he took needles and sucked out the blood of them himself.

__________________

geekcognito

Yeah I saw that too. That guy is a freak. Along with 90% of pro body builders. Sure, they are cut and stuff when they do their competitions but what you don't see is what they look like in their "off season." They live their life in two cycles: bulking and cutting.

In off season they bulk up. Meaning, they eat tons of food and get really fat, trying to pack on as much mass as possible. They really do get really fat because they're trying to put on as much muscle as possible and they aren't worried about their fat intake much.

When they start training for a competition, they start to "cut" the fat off while preserving the muscle they gained during off season, only taking in enough calories to keep the muscle they gained on while burning off all that fat. It's actually VERY rough on the body, the life they lead. Some will gain and lose up to 75 lbs of fat per year. That really takes it's toll, making many of them look years older in the face than they actually are.

Bodybuilding is a weird "sport" (if you can actually call it that) and most are juicers, whether they admit to it or not. They're just smart enough to cut themselves off the 'roids in time to have their systems clean by the time the competitions start testing them for it.

Not my cup of tea at all.

__________________

"Never confuse movement with action." ~Ernest Hemingway

"While you have lost some money, you have also gained some knowledge. So in the end you may have not lossed at all. Good luck bro." ~ Sumitdhawan09

shaggz

It really is an odd sport. What's crazy is that to the observers, the participants try to showcase themselves as uber-healthy during the events. However, by the time the contestants actually take the stage they are so dehydrated and malnourished (from trying to get/appear cut) that most medical doctors would want them in a hostipal. I've heard of lots of backstage stories where guys/gals are severely cramping, passing out, etc.

I read an article a few years back about Jay Cutler (professional bodybuilder......the Broncos QB is a different Jay Cutler). He said he dislikes doing what he does, but it's what brings in the money. He said when he retired he wanted to be 75-100 lbs lighter. He also said he can't walk up a couple flights of stairs without getting winded due to carrying so much more muscle weight than his body was built for. It really puts a toll on their joints as well.

cyberworkspace

hahaha... sorry dude, but that made me laugh out so hard i almost had tears in my eyes. i didn't knew that this 70s rumor still makes it way round but all in all, it is really not funny, since it is almost dangerous if you actually tell people nonsense like that.

first of all, torn cells and fibers don't "rebuild" themselves. instead, scar tissue is built to repair those damage. scar tissue however has nothing to do with "rebuilt muscle cells" but consists of inflexible cells that have nothing to do with muscle cells.

what you describe would require a quantum leap in stem cell research, as only certain body aparts, like the liver e.g., are currently able to heal themselves by building the exact celltype. muscles are not.

so, muscle aches are nothing to be proud of. muscle aches are a sign of having trained the wrong way. hurting muscles -> destroyed muscle cells -> wrong training.

yeah, i know you will come up with some very different explanation why hurting muscles are a good thing, but you don't need to. i have tried too often and am not discussing these topics online any more i shouldn't have done here either

full ack. now i am confused why you have come up with the first post as i don't think that we share such a different point of view

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znine

Clearly real pain when working out isn't something good or to be proud of, but if you're trying to tell us that being sore during/after working out or even after doing anything athletic means we're destroying ourselves you're definitely misguided.

cyberworkspace

nope. i am sorry, but i am not. every kind of muscle sore is bad for you.

you can train as hard as not being able to walk for an hour but still you would not have to have sore muscles from that if done right. an exhausted muscle does not come in line with pain. pain and having spent all energy during training has nothing to do with each other.

if you run a mile and your legs hurt the next day, you have over-exercised. simple as that.

if you have sore muscles, something tore while you lifted the weight. it tore, because you made a wrong move. most often this wrong move was caused by a swift reation from your side e.g. to counter the slipping away / to the side of that weight you were holding.

being "worked out" can be achieved without any muscle pain at all. i know, it is hard to believe because there is still the believe in "no pain, no gain", but that is not required at all anyone who has done working out on a nautilus med-x knows what i am talking about

jeez, how could anyone have fun in doing sport if hurting muscles is the result? i surely could not

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barman

Here's another article on body types on how to train for each one..

Better Body Journal » Blog Archive » Be Your Body Type

__________________

geekcognito

cyberworkspace, I'm not going to get into some kind of forum argument flame-war with you, but you obviously have no idea what you're talking about. Real pain from working out happens when someone overtrains or trains with improper form. Being "sore" is just the introduction of lactic acid into the muscle, a normal bodily function.

Now please don't embarrass yourself with saying that **ALL** types of soreness in the muscles in harmful. The entire medical, sports, and fitness industries disagree with you.

But anyway, it's not worth arguing over. Do what you want to your body. Just keep your misguided information to yourself and don't spread your own misconceptions as fact.

__________________

"Never confuse movement with action." ~Ernest Hemingway

"While you have lost some money, you have also gained some knowledge. So in the end you may have not lossed at all. Good luck bro." ~ Sumitdhawan09

geekcognito

Here's a nice little article that blows your hypothesis out of the water. Hell, read the first line:

WHAT CAUSES MUSCLE SORENESS?

"Your muscles should feel sore on some days after you exercise. If you go out and jog the same two miles at the same pace, day after day, you will never become faster, stronger or have greater endurance. If you stop lifting weights when your muscles start to burn, you won't feel sore on the next day and you will not become stronger. All improvement in any muscle function comes from stressing and recovering. On one day, you go out and exercise hard enough to make your muscles burn during exercise. The burning is a sign that you are damaging your muscles. On the next day, your muscles feel sore because they are damaged and need time to recover. Scientist call this DOMS, delayed onset muscle soreness."

Delayed muscle soreness after exercise: What causes it? - MayoClinic.com

"The exact cause of muscle soreness isn't clear. It may be due to the build up of energy waste products in the muscle. It may also be due to microscopic tears in muscle fibers. If your discomfort is mild, you can continue your exercise program. However, if you have substantial pain with exertion, stop exercising immediately and consult your doctor."



Being TOO sore is never good. But a little soreness after an invigorating workout is certainly not damaging.

By your logic, a muscle can never grow. Which is just plain false.

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"While you have lost some money, you have also gained some knowledge. So in the end you may have not lossed at all. Good luck bro." ~ Sumitdhawan09

Laura

I just checked that out, and I am underweight for a 'medium frame.' According to their wrist test, I would be considered a 'small frame,' but it seems like 5'11' and 'small' don't really go together well.


Skinny guys shouldn't care about bulking up if it's only for women. There are plenty of girls out there that want a skinny guy (or not). Worry about how you treat women and stuff like that - I can't tell you how much more important that is.

K, this thread is making me feel like a lazy butt today...

Laura

cyberworkspace

lactic acid ... HAHAHA ... jeez, you are so 90s

lactic acid does even not exist as an acid in the body what you are referring to is lactate. and the myth you are referring to is is, that lactate is causing muscle fatigue by acidifying the blood.

really dude. i don't want to flamewar with you either but you really lack the most fundamental biological knowledge required to have any opinion about body functions at all ... lactic acid good grace. it is called MICROTRAUMA... and as the name suggests it is a bad thing.

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geekcognito

By that site, I'm almost 40 lbs OVERWEIGHT. But that's no surprise. Going by weight/height alone is hardly an accurate indicator. There is never a substitution for an accurate BMI (body mass index). I'm sitting right at about 7 to 9% body fat right now so I can hardly describe myself as "fat."

__________________

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"While you have lost some money, you have also gained some knowledge. So in the end you may have not lossed at all. Good luck bro." ~ Sumitdhawan09

Laura

Honestly, this is SO strange to me. I can't imagine not being sore after a good workout. I can't say that I have ever worked out with someone who didn't get sore - and that includes professionals.

Is this anecdotal? Or do you have some corroborating stuff on this? It just seems so odd.

Laura

geekcognito

Jesus, man. Do a quick google search before you put your foot in your mouth.

Lactic Acid Is Not Muscles' Foe, It's Fuel - New York Times

Lactic acid - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Molecule of the Week - Lactic Acid

"Lactic acid produces the sour taste in that old eggnog, but it also forms when glucose is metabolized during anaerobic exercise such as a brief, intense snowball fight."


At least your rep matches your intelligence.

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geekcognito

Everything he's said is completely false. I posted some articles that completely debunk his lies. You can find so much more credible information from credible sites if you do a quick search.

__________________

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"While you have lost some money, you have also gained some knowledge. So in the end you may have not lossed at all. Good luck bro." ~ Sumitdhawan09

drugoon

the burning muscles sensation (especially the day after) is one of the basic concepts. The pain that is caused by over training is something else. Again there is something I often saw on starters: they over train or they don't train enough. Over training one day on the gym is a good thing but going to gym without proper recovery can bring one down.

Pro bb can be an extreme sport. I like amateur competitions as well for example (there are harder tests for illegal substances I think) and since there is less money involved people don't abuse as much. Regarding getting fat while building mass that differs from one bodybuilder to another imo. I know champions that look "sharp" all the year and other that get more fat... it depends on how they like to look I guess as well as their metabolism

geekcognito

True, but I was referring to the more "hardcore" guys that people frequently see on the cover of "Muscle magazines."

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cyberworkspace

thanks for posting the wikipedia article, which totally proves my point you obviously have just read the introductional part and missed out on the section "exercise and lactate" "...and secondly, the acidic form of lactate, lactic acid, cannot be formed under normal circumstances in human tissues."

but i give up. you won. i am not arguing anymore, your overwhelming knowledge has convinced me no need to discuss this matter any further.

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