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Aequitas

haha thats halarious,

But if your looking for an answer I've always been a scientist.

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guysmy

use theory to delude yourself into believing you better understand the universe.

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Kurt Maine

How is it 2007 and people still believe in "gods"?

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Aequitas

I'm going to be labeled as a geek for even saying this but its just something I think.

The writers of Stargate SG1 the television series that has been around for the past 10 years, featured from the original stargate movie, their story line is by far the most interesting and most compelling story of what "Could" have happened way back thousands of years ago.

I'm not saying its what happened because oviously it was hollywooded up to make it more compelling but the way they incorporate real world facts of ancient mythology and ancient egyptian gods is something that truly makes me step back and think "Fuck, I wonder what it was really like way back when the so called Gods ran things".

It would be interesting to see and compelling to think about.

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Andrew

Do you think those Warrior Forum guys fall under the science or faith category?

Aequitas

They fall under faith because they only hope to succeed and have no clue how to succeed.

But don't worry, they will all fail in the long run while we are keeping our stable income and increasing the income every month or two for many years to come.

The only downfall is that they might make our customers a little less trustworthy when it comes to buying our products but the upside to this is we can show them one of the smallest things with the smallest results and gain their trust for life because that one little small thing we give them for free is what they have been trying to buy from the members at warrior forums for many years with no results.

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Jon

Geek.

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Aequitas

See I knew I'd get that title by someone.

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shaggz

Try living in the Bible Belt.

A local baptist church had a 'study program' for a month that was entitled 'science versus creationism.....a scientific look at the bible'. I'm sure the info there was some nobel prize winning material. I was at the coaches meeting for my son's baseball league. I got to hear a group of coaches talk about this *study* with such gems as 'I want to go there and get my kids involved. These public schools are filling their minds with garbage.'

The people have had this stuff pounded into their head since birth, and they just can't fathom any other beliefs.

I have very few confrontations over this subject matter because I avoid them. However, one time I got into a discussion with a group of people about a local gentleman who was convicted of some pretty bad behavior and serving jail time. Personally, i've never had more than a speeding ticket, and these people knew that. Their conclusion was that, in the end, he was a better person than me because he was 'saved' and i wasn't.

geekcognito

Haha. I feel your pain. Oh, trust me, I know what living in the bible belt is all about.

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lv826nv

Ive read books by graham hancock and he has been a leader in research in egypt, and has came up with some pretty interesting and close results as that tv show has, also have you heard about the "hall of records" in egypt, a interesting short read

Hall of Records

(no thats not my site, i just figured to past the link and not the article, that site has not been updated in 8 years it looks like, still interesting)

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dastuff

Join the Scientology religion and you get the best of both worlds..

A fake religion with fake science..

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Aequitas

Yeah I have heard of the hall of records before, that was also an interesting read, I want to go to egypt one day and see the pyramids for myself I think there amazing, plus I've always like the stories of the Greek library which burned down in a fire, they lost almost all of the old ancient records, which was said to hold the knowledge and secrets of that time.

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Kfleming

classic.

MisterX

Interesting point, but I don't think you'd be able to elaborate.

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claudek

Take String Theory. Scientists around the world hailed it as the theory to understand the universe. Then all of a sudden, you need all these extra dimensions to make the theory work and they were added. Then you had more dimensions pop up. In the end you had the theory working with many different dimensions that even the scientists who championed it could not say with a straight face that it was the understanding of the universe as they had originally claimed.

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Romestar

God exsists.

Jesus is the son of God.

The earth is ~10,000 years old.

Humans lived with dinosaurs
I'm not joking, go talk to a creationist (or read online) if you want to know more.

Carbon dateing is incredibly inaccurate
a live penguin was dated to be 8,000 years old and the same rock was dated to be between ~100,000 years old and ~2 billon years old by four different carbon dateing techniques believed to be accurate

The Great Flood did stuff...
There is evidence to support that the Grand Canon was caused by ONE cataclysmic event.

The Theory Evolution is total crap
It doesn't work, things don't become new species. All the theory does is use an incomprehendable amount of time and chance (the actually probabilty of evolution is impossible) amount of time to say things happened.

Go read more online. I just wrote this really quick (I'm at school) - maybe this weekend I will go more indepth and explain some of those things...

geekcognito

Other than the misspelling, this is absolutely true. Well, I can't vouch for the examples because it's the first I have heard of them, but there has been numerous times that carbon dating has been proven to be about as accurate as drunkenly throwing a dart at a wall.

yoink*gasp*

Before I begin I want you to know that I'm not insulting you, I'm simply dissecting your statement.

Firstly, God Exists. What evidense is there to support this? I have seen no physical or even spirtual construction of God. We can say that his existence is possible, but certainly not definate.

Second, Jesus is the son of God. That may very well be true but we still do not have any factual proof that validates the existence of God. Because of that fact we have no choice but to say "If God does indeed exist, the Jesus is his son."

The earth is less than 10,000 years old. How can you know this? Religion has no evidense other than a book to susbstaniate this claim. The Bible cannot be considered an authority simply because it's bias is obviously very one sided.

Until there can be undeniable proof of the age of the earth this fact will also have to remain possible, but certainly not definate.

Third, humans lived with the dinosaurs. Again, what proof does anyone have to substaniate this? Reading the views of a creationist cannot be considered proof simply because of their obvious bias. Though some of their opinions may be factual, the fact remains that their opinions must be twisted to their cause because of their bias.

Fourth, Carbon dating is incredibly inaccurate. This may very well be true. However, there is more effort on the science side of things because at least they're trying to find a way to make it accurate as opposed to relying on a book.

Fifth, The Great Flood did stuff. What constitutes a great flood? The mass melting of the glaciers could certainly be considered a great flood. However, what proof can a creationist provide that validates the claims that "God" created a massive flood.

Lastly, The Theory of Evolution is total crap. Really? How can you prove any of your claims on this one? What makes the probability of evolution impossible?

Back 5,000 years ago do you think someone who was chronically fat or blind survived? Yet today, in our modern age, nearly 10% of the population is severely obese and blind people still live.

You don't think that animals/people havn't evolved to survive in their environments? Explain the fish that exist deep in the ocean that have no eyes because the light doesn't penetrate that far. What about thick haired animals that survive in cold climates?

No... that's not evolution. God put them all there.

Okay, so what about the thousands of different dog breeds that have sprung up in the last few hundred years? No, you're right, God made the Cokapoo.

In either case- please provide evidense to support your claims.

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Romestar

yea, it's coming (hopefully by tommorrow)

engaged

some people are so dumb it hurts

joemeca

Sad, I will probably get reds for this but...

I might not go to church but I certainly believe in god and don't know how I would live if I didn't have something to believe in.

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feros

i believe in God because science won't send me to hell if i'm wrong

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joemeca

hahha amen!

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emp

LOL

I even gave up arguing with them Jesus people. Let them be.

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NoelKuhl

I want to be God.

Personally, I still pray and give thanks everytime I eat. I really don't know who I'm praying to but it feels good to be thankful for little things like that.

ltn1dr

Funny, but its a valid point.

I'm Catholic, and don't buy the majority of the scientific theories because there is not one that makes enough sense to completely make me believe any of them.

But then again, I might have a little bias, I went to a Baptist elementary school and they pounded our little brains with enough bible to kill a person. They showed us a video of how the flood caused the continents to split up and stuff.

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Setec

RomeStar, somebody's been feeding you a truckload of bullshit. Those are all standard creationist jokes, and each one is easily disproved in hundreds of ways, if not tens of thousands of ways. Thank goodness I don't have to list them all... since creationists have been trotting out the same old nonsense for so long, somebody put together a nice database of explanations why each claim is wrong.

Age of the Earth
Age of the Universe

Before you consider yourself qualified to contradict the thousands of PhD scientists who use carbon dating, you should really learn how to spell "dating." Learning to spell "billion" would be a plus, too.

However, the basic reason this claim is full of shit is that carbon dating isn't used on things between 100,000 and 2 billion years old. Carbon dating works on most things up to about 50,000 years back, and beyond that a host of different methods are used.

Link: Carbon dating is fine.

No there isn't.

Link: Great flood / Grand Canyon bullshit

Denying evolution is literally every bit as insane as denying gravity. Evolution is not just one idea; it's an entire framework underlying almost everything we know about biology, none of which makes any sense without the context evolution provides. It offers logical explanations for millions of otherwise seemingly random features of organisms. It is impossible to convey the magnitude of the evidence supporting evolution in an entire book, let alone one post.

It's hard to know where to begin with somebody who doesn't believe evolution, because that mindset is so far detached from reality. Not one single person looks at the evidence with an open mind and rejects evolution; instead, people are brainwashed against it by their pastors and then look at evolution with a "where can I convince myself this is wrong" mindset. Usually it's pretty easy -- you run up against something you don't understand and say, "aha! I don't understand that, therefore it must be wrong." Something needs to get you out of that mindset, and reason and evidence won't do it. Maybe a whack on the head with a big stick would work.

I really don't know what will work, but try this: read a few actual science books about evolution. Every time something doesn't make sense to you, it's probably something other creationists have used to oppose evolution, which means you could find it in the Index of Creationists Claims. Use that site as a sort of FAQ to give the basics of things you don't understand. Half of the site involves refuting anti-evolution silliness, but you might need to start with these parts:

• We don't expect to directly observe macroevolution. Then again, we don't directly observe atoms, because they're too small to see. Do you doubt that you're made of atoms?
• We have observed the appearance of new species.
• Here's a nice summary of some of the areas of biology which prove life evolved. None of these take the form of pretty little "x and y, therefore z" proofs because most are entire fields within biology.

No, but you could waste up to 1/7 of your life in church. Since it's the only life you get, that's a lot of time to be tossing in the dumpster.

Besides, punishment has no bearing on what's real or not. If you rationalize you belief on God that way, odds are you realize it's a stupid idea but you're going through the motions so you don't get in trouble. What's the point? Furthermore, what if you've picked the wrong God? Is it really worth believing in one to avoid punishment when it could just as easily be Allah or Zeus or Vishnu waiting to strike you down instead of the Christian God? Or, what if you just believe in a general overall God, but it turns out there's really a sectarian God who sends everyone but Mormons to Hell anyway? You must be scared shitless of all these possibilities unless you're willing to call them all out as bullshit, which is a much better idea.

Then you don't understand them. Science is not a set of ideas for the laymen to be tossed out and judged based on how much they aesthetically please you. Most who don't have several years of good college training in science can't even fathom how much evidence and
reasoning underlies a lot of the basic scientific theories that creationists deny. I grew up loving science and was still completely blown away by just how deep the field of physics is when I had majored in it at a top university for a few years. I ended up switching to bio and was again shocked by just how much evidence there is for evolution..

There are a few reasons scientists have a credibility problem in the public eye, none of which are valid reasons to reject science:

1. Scientists are busy doing science, which is a shitload of hard work. They also have the major headache of getting funding, and many of them teach college classes on top of it all. This means most of them don't have much time to market their ideas to the public. Meanwhile, people on the anti-science side do literally nothing but propaganda.
2. The country may spend a lot on scientific research, but it spends pennies on science education. The National Center for Science Education's budget is dwarfed by that of the Christian-funded Discovery Institute, just one of many propaganda outlets on the full-time attack against science. If you scoot through school like most people do in some cushy major that doesn't involve learning the first thing about science, and your Biblical delusions remain intact, there's pretty much nothing out there after school to prompt you to question your fantasy.
3. Most scientists are cautious and reserved when stating their confidence in things, because they're used to a world of papers filled with error bars and caveats, and most of them are unwilling to say they're 100% positive something is true when that frequent question is asked. They say "no" and the sound bite camera shuts down before they can add, "I'm technically just 99.99999999999999% positive." This technical hang-up leads to the perception that scientists aren't as sure of things as they really are.

Then again, God does have a blog.

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Romestar

Setec, public schools have been feeding you a truckload of bullshit. The Theory of Evolution is only taught because it is the only theory about the origin of life that is not based on a religion (however, evolution is still a faith that you are worthless and you came about by chance to reproduce your species).

First, about my spelling in my initial post (since your the second to comment), if you actually comprehended it you would know that I "wrote this really quick" and didn't have time to check my spelling.

I would like to point out that I have studied creationism and evolution. (I went to a Christian school for two years) Setec, I highly doubt you have honestly studied creationism.

I only brought up carbon dating because a lot of people's first response when I tell them the age of the Earth is what about carbon dating? My point is that it is not reliable. There are varies factors that could make it inaccurate; for example carbon dating assumes that the rate of carbon decay has remained the same over the thousands of years the creature has been dead. Just throwing this out there, but don't ice ages occur roughly every 10,000 years supposedly? So if we have a 50,000 year old creature that goes through five ice ages and freezes. This would cause the decay to be much slower. Of course that particular example doesn't support me, but it just shows an example of how carbon dating could be way off.

When I said evolution does work. I wasn't just saying it...

"Evolution is mathematically impossible. The mathematical probability of a SINGLE CELL coming about by chance is 1/10340,000,000, the fraction 1 divided by 1 followed by 340 million zeros! And then this cell must live long enough to reproduce. And then the reproduced cell must live long enough to do the same. And then more "accidents" must happen to cause more complexity. And then more "accidents" must happen to cause more complexity. And long before the first "accident" evolution is nothing but a silly, mystical fairy tale."

Finally, I would like to point out that there is no such thing as a vestigial organ (an organ that is useless - like a leftover byproduct of evolution). It is a common misconception that the appendix is useless, go read this: Cutting out a useless vestigial argument

Andrew

Actually you are all wrong, its common knowledge that the Earth was created by reptilians.

Grower

I love you wacko guys, you make life interesting. 200 years ago you would be telling us that the world is flat (100% of scientists would disagree, but what do they know).

The interesting question you should ask yourself is: Why do all smart people in the world disagree with me?

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Romestar

there are very smart people on both sides of the creation vs evolution argument

emp

Setec, I said I wouldn't argue with them Jesus people, but my fingers itch...

I think the thing that riles most religionists is that science is not a faith.

Science is a method. It's a process. It is based on finding faults in one another's works to build on them.

So if you disprove, really disprove evolution tomorrow, science is just gonna truck along another path. As scientists, we're not gonna stand still and defend a lost position.

Funny thing is that creationists want to debunk evolution by the claim that "you can't observe it" - yes you can.

Bacteria (unsure of spelling, but hey, English is not my first langage) and Virii evolve every day right in front of our eyes. In fact, science has to keep up with that evolution to provide all the jesus hugging creationists with antibiotics and up to date medicine.

If you really do not believe in evolution, pray instead of taking those miracles of science next time you are sick.

::emp::

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Romestar

no, you can not.

when has something turned into a new species? never.

science itself may not be a faith, but the Theory of Evolution is. You believe that there is no God and that you are absolutely worthless, you came around by chance and that you can do whatever you want in your materialistic lives and when you die you just cease to live (when you actually go to Hell on Judgement Day)

guysmy

What if life is created to adapt to its environment and calibrates itself in order to flourish in good conditions or merely survive in bad conditions? There are limitations, so if the changes required for survival are too drastic within a given frame of time, the species will die off. If the balance is thrown off by the species' absense, it is compensated by all existing species.

If that's the case, the creation of a new species (ie dinosaurs, humankind) would have to serve a greater purpose than to simply maintain the balance of all life. Now, we come to a realm that is beyond human comprehension.

This is my own personal opinion or reality tunnel and I can't prove shit. I like to look at the spritual underpinnings because I think like a mystic. I like reading scientific opinions, however, while scientists are always asking "how?", I'm always asking "why?"

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GeorgeA

Great!now you have a purpose in live,live in sufferance to please a God that may send you in hell ,though he LOVES you. So we must all live/die/waste our lives for him because he needs people to worship him. truly a fine purpose, and a mighty forgiving god (that might just send you to hell , but he's good ).

Creationism is NOT science,please understand that. See the criterion of falsifiability that science generally presents.

Oh , I know the explanation for the dinosaurs thing: God put the fossils there to test us !!11!oneone.
Please red about:
Radiocarbon dating - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
And as you said that you've studied so much , you probably knew that carbon dating is NOT used for dating the age of earth. See: Radiometric dating - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia for further details.

If you start like that,you might as well bring the so called "argument" that Sir Fred Hoyle presented (the one with the tornado and the boeing 747...look it up in the net).
Your understanding of evolution is that a cell must be formed at once "by accident" which is utterly wrong. First , the basic building block of life form (nucleotides), then amino acids,they then form some other structures which names I've forgotten ,which then form self-replicating structures such as DNA or RNA.It's a step by step process , and there is no change that a cell just forms in a second by chance from water , methane , heat and whatever else is needed. The whole point is that each step leads to an increase in complexity,and the sum of all parts can be greater than the parts taken separately.

Ever seen the X-ray photos of a whale ? What's with the small leg bones buried deep inside their body,in the back part ? They serve what function ? Oh and what do ostriches and emus do with their wings ? I've never seen one fly.

emp

So you opt for the prayer instead of modern antibiotics? Great. Just the thing to do with a lung infection.

For me, I know that modern science has saved my life several times already.

Yes, we came around by chance, but no, we and I are not worthless.

Having no faith in God does not imply worthlessness. How Christians make that leap is completely beyond me.

The other leap you are making here is no belief in God = purely materialistic world view = unethical behaviour.

There can be ethics and moral without a God in the picture. For example, I can decide to behave morally because I decide it is the better thing to do.

For example, I won't go around killing people.
Not because I believe in any God or /and his/her/its commandments, but rather because I like people to be alive and well.
Maybe also because "Do unto others as you want to be done unto" is a kinda neat concept...which also works without a God.

You know, I don't need an imaginary friend.

::emp::

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Romestar

Yes, without God you are worthless. Your only here to reproduce your species. You should know that, you seem to like science.

Christians don't just blindly believe in God. Religion is personal. Not to be confused with the liberal perversion meaning keep it yourself, but you have a person relationship with God.

Also, George Washington said this: "Of all the dispositions and habits which lead to political prosperity, religion and morality are indispensable supports."

emp

1) Christian world view. I do not see myself as worthless. Science does not tell me I am. It tells me I am the product of millions of years of evolution.

While we are at it, I am trying to better my community, live ethically (standards not set by God, but by society and my own thinking foremost) and better the lives of people around me. I will have kids and raise them to be good people, without religion.

This is the point where I will point you back at the pic at the beginning of the thread and stop discussing this, because we have reached a barrier in your head.

It's called christianity.

::emp::

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Romestar

rofl, it's funny how you assume Christians are ignorant, when it's actually you that's ignorant of our non-ignorance.

emp

Ignorant of what? Of your god? of your faith?

I live in a Xtian country, so how could I be? I had religion in school and was a (non-baptized..LOL) member of the catholic boyscouts, so I know a lot about christian beliefs and their faith.

So... tell me, Roman... did baby jesus tell you to distribute trojans with your screensavers?



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Romestar

You seem to think that just because I believe in God that I am unaware of science. Your wrong.

Please don't make fun of Jesus/God - he might not mean a lot to you but he means a lot to a lot of people.

So what if I distribute adware through screen savers? It's not illegal, or really not all that unethical. Come on, you have BlueHatSEO on your blogroll.

claudek

Actually, you would know only about the christian beliefs and faith that you were only exposed to. As my personal belief is that many christians do not know a lot about their belief, I would say you know even less. Simple logic here - you do not know something simply by hearsay and observance of a small grouping.


This thread is becoming so DP it is is sad. On DP they being up stuff like this all the time becuase they know it inflames viewpoints and the original author also knows that with more views and arguments in ther thread, they will get a few cents with the DP Adsense sharing thing.

There is stuff here that offends me and to be honest I do not think there is enough "experts" on either side to make it a worthwhile discussion.

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Romestar

I agree.

I agree again, we should end this with some punch and pie.

emp

Yeah, lets end this.

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Stanley

I believe in the juju monster of the sea.

nachoninja

F = (G * M1 * M2) / D2

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Setec

RomeStar, I'm sorry, but you really don't even have a clue what evolution is. You have only the fuzzy strawman picture of it that religious sources have shown you, which is nothing like the actual scientific field.

And I'm not "being fed a truckload of bullshit by public schools." I did my undergrad at an Ivy League college (oh shit, East Coast Liberal Alert!!!! RUN!) and my graduate research uses evolution constantly. So my qualifications are a little better than "bullshit public school." And they're a lot better than Christian schools, Islamic Madrassas, etc.

You creationists just don't realize what a huge joke you are to anybody who knows anything about life science. That's why we mostly just make fun of you rather than engage your arguments -- it's impossible to take you seriously. The information to prove you're wrong is everywhere, and if you can't take 15 seconds on Google to find it then you're pretty much hopeless. Fairly "debating" you isn't really worthwhile since you wouldn't recognize evidence if it hit you over the head with a bowling ball. I found a good IRC quote off Digg today that kind of conveys this point:

Creationists are like SpaceRain. They constantly think they're playing "gotcha" when really they just aren't thinking on the level necessary to understand even the basics.

You don't have to study horoscopes or Tarot cards, either, to know that those are bullshit. The Bible is exactly like those, except more harmful.

Apparently you missed the point. Carbon dating is very accurate on the scale at which it's used. And it's calibrated using tree rings and other measures for the first several thousand years.

And that brings up another good point: fucking tree rings prove the Universe is older than you think it is. You don't need radioactive isotopes, just an ax. When your world view can be disproved with a tool you can fashion out of flint, you need to rethink it.

This is why people who know ANYTHING laugh their asses off at you. You have not even remotely described how evolution suggests that life came to be.

First, cells are advanced, especially eukaryotic cells. The first life was probably a self-replicating molecule, a precursor of DNA, devoid of all the other fancy trappings of a cell. And given that the proper ingredients were stewing in a soup of organic goo across much of the Earth for hundreds of millions of years, that's not improbable at all.

Evolution is really the opposite of an accidental process. That's what people don't get. All forms of life involve errors in their replication, which result in some degree of random variation in future generations. Natural selection is the highly non-random process which funnels those variations in the most beneficial directions, resulting in surprisingly predictable long-term changes of organisms in response to their environments.

Try learning something about it before you run around telling people it's wrong.

Wronnnnng. Just about every organism has lots of vestigial features, and not just macroscopic organs. Most DNA doesn't do a thing... it's mostly left-over byproducts of past ancestors.

There are very few on the creation side, and all of them are either (a) brainwashed from such an early age that they didn't have a chance, or (b) formerly smart, but now suffering from senility.

Read the links in my last post. We have observed several cases of speciation. Furthermore, that's all we would expect. In most things it happens over a much longer time scale than we've been around for. It's not instantaneous. Evolution does not say Harry Potter came along and *poof* turned a cat into a dog. That only happens in religion.

Where do you get your information about atheists, fucking Pat Robertson?

Atheists are one of the most moral groups in America, responsible for far less crime per person than Christians or other religious types. We believe that there's only one life so we shouldn't fuck it up, and that under no circumstances will we be rewarded with a room full of virgins if we fly a jet into a skyscraper. Furthermore, I don't need a giant imaginary father figure in the sky to give meaning to my life -- I can decide on my own meaning. And I'm certainly not worthless to myself or to thousands of other people who benefit from various things I do.

You've been brainwashed by KKK types to think that atheists lead materialistic, immoral, meaningless lives. You're not alone; we atheists are pretty much the only group about which a majority of Americans still agree with the Klan.

I am encouraged by the number of atheists speaking up here, and in other places on the Internet. I guess places like WF are usually tilted toward a smarter than average segment of the population, and therefore more atheists, but I think the anonymity of the Internet is part of it, too. There are probably a lot more atheists willing to speak their minds behind the anonymity of the net than in public or phone surveys... so the percentage of fully sane people in the country might be higher than the estimated 10-15%.

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Setec

"No matter what unconscionable thing I do to them, they just thank Me for not doing something even worse." -God

Duhhhhhrrrr Buy My Stupid eBook! <--as seen in Jon's sig!

"Honesty is the best policy - when there is money in it." -Mark Twain