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Old 03-09-2011, 05:49 PM   #1
SUP3RNOVA
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Fuck Ah, Religion - My Short Story

Background : I was raised a super Christian (not evangelical/nutjob status though) by my mother, who was raised a super Christian by her borderline evangelical-hardcore mother. For the first 22 years of my life I got to know everything Christianity is about, what they stand for, and how they go about their business. I've spent hours in prayer and I've believed that saying "Jesus" out loud was blasphemy that warranted a life in hell. About 6 months ago I became agnostic, acknowledging that there's a clear logical conflict with a bunch of religions claiming they're all the one and only Truth. Being a subtle agnostic only lasted for a few months, and I'm now a very clear agnostic that has MAJOR problems with organized religion, and my family.

Cliff notes : My sisters attend church and youth groups at The Chapel, a massive non-denominational church located in a business park. In our many arguments where I leave them speechless, they always tell me to "Come talk to Pastor Jerry and ask him all these questions we can't answer". I'm going to do that, so the question to you in this thread is : What would you ask him? (being serious about it)

Long hand :

As stated before I was a Christian. I wasn't pushy with other people about it, but I had my beliefs. 6 months ago I started to question that belief, which led to me becoming an "I don't know" agnostic. I believe there may be some form of a god out there, some intelligent designer, that we might be living in a computer simulation, or that we simply stop existing when we die. They're all plausible. Either way, it changed my view on organized religion from Follower, to a non-believer who still would say "They're teaching good morals and doing good things, I don't see the problem with it as long as it doesn't turn into violence."

Then I watched the documentary Jesus Camp yesterday.

Now I can say that my position has changed from a non-believer who said "eh for the most part it's harmless, let them do their thing" to an extremely pissed off non-believer that despises all the trickery and deception in organized religion...all to get people to believe a lie. It is disgusting what parents and religious leaders do to innocent children at their most vulnerable time. Now that I look outside the box even further, I can see that it happened to me. It's not just the crazy Evangelicals that homeschool their kids, it's the parents that trick you by pretending to be subtle when they deliver you their ultimatum: if you don't believe this you're burning alone in hell forever. I'm a victim just as much as any other child that was raised a Christian...our free will (ie all that makes us human) is stripped from us and we are told that we have no will, everything is God's will (ahem..."God's will be done, on Earth as it is in Heaven).

I've already started arguing with my Jesus Camp sisters about it and I'm finding out that you get nowhere, fast. So I'm going to take them up on their offer and speak with the leader of the church about it. Here's what I plan on talking about :

-the fact that believing billions of good, caring, loving people are going to burn in hell forever for not accepting something written only in a 5,000 year old book

-blind faith does not equal faith, it equals blindness

-why do other religions exist that claim the same thing and have the same amount of evidence

-the fact that you can live by a perfect moral code without having to believe that someone died for you

-how exactly to interpret the Bible, and whether or not it should be interpreted in the first place

-similarities between Christianity and any other religion...all just parables about good vs evil

I'm sure all of those points will lead to more points, and I'm sure that in the end, he will have an answer for everything. I'm also sure that every answer he has is going to come from the Bible, which is illogical for obvious reasons. But that seems to be the way religious people (Christians in this case) argue...they prove prophecies in their Bible with other prophecies coming true...in their Bible.

Also I extend a 1/3 apology to turbo for always ragging on her raging atheism. I still disagree with being an asshole about it though.

It just sucks that I can already foresee this destroying my family...all over one gigantic lie.
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Old 03-09-2011, 05:56 PM   #2
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It's been something like 12 years and my family still doesn't know I'm an atheist. I don't think they'll ever know.

Anyway, it's not up to you to prove that he's wrong. He's the one making an outlandish claim about the true nature of everything. The burden of proof is on him. It will always come back to faith and some sort of feeling that Jesus is present in his life, but people of all the other religions make the same claims.
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Old 03-09-2011, 06:01 PM   #3
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Congratulations man. Too bad it'll do damage but in the long run it'll be a good thing for you and your family I'm sure.
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Old 03-09-2011, 06:03 PM   #4
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Good step in the right direction!
Now if there is interest you can actually find out the truth.

In my opinion, all the teachers like Buddha, Jesus taught great things and pointed people to truth. However afterwards, who was the one that created the religions? It was the people that did not actually know the truth, so they created a whole bunch of crap around the teaching, usually completely missing the point of the original teaching.

Again this is just my opinion and do not want to offend anyone. =)))
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Old 03-09-2011, 06:05 PM   #5
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I answered some of your questions in a very ADHD kind of way. Those answers are by no means complete, just a guide.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SUP3RNOVA View Post


-blind faith does not equal faith, it equals blindness

This one should be easy for him to answer, and you will probably like the answer. It isnt about blind faith, it is about faith. "faith is the substance of things hoped for..." Faith is like hope, but is actionable. Hopng for something gets you nowhere, but true faith will cause you to take action to claim that which you want.

It also works on scripture. Have a need? Find bible versus that support that need being met. Then, pray and meditate on those verses. You are having faith in the bible at that point and it actually cause s you to take action, even if action is simply believing.


-why do other religions exist that claim the same thing and have the same amount of evidence

Alot of religions have a similar belief system, but arent identical. The thing that sets christianity apart from other religions is prophecy. The bible is so dead on in fact, that people have to try to claim that books like Daniel were written later than they were in order to know the things the book speaks about.

-the fact that you can live by a perfect moral code without having to believe that someone died for you

That was actually tried in the bible and failed. It was called the law. Numbers, Duet, books like that are law books. Read some of the moral codes that were in place then.

Being human, it is impossible to live a perfect moral code, thus the reason the Law of Moses was given and the reason Jesus eventually died for our sins.


-how exactly to interpret the Bible, and whether or not it should be interpreted in the first place

That is a tough one. I mainly study prophecy, so I take the bible at it's literal word. If I come across a symbol or something I dont understand, I use the bible to interpret itself. For instance when woman or the female gender is used as a symbol, it refers to a religious system. The church is the BRIDE of Christ. Church=Religious system. The Jews are the wife of the Messiah. Jews-Relgious entity. In Revelation there is Babylon the Harlot. Babylon=Religious system. All symbols are 100% constant from cover to cover

-similarities between Christianity and any other religion...all just parables about good vs evil

I dont think you will get a satisfactory answer to this one.
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Old 03-09-2011, 06:08 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrey View Post

In my opinion, all the teachers like Buddha, Jesus taught great things and pointed people to truth. However afterwards, who was the one that created the religions? It was the people that did not actually know the truth, so they created a whole bunch of crap around the teaching, usually completely missing the point of the original teaching.
I think there are definitely good lessons to learn from teachers like Buddha and Jesus...they got the right message across: love other people. Man kind of screwed Christianity over with the whole "love other people AND believe this guy died for you, or else you're burning in Hell".
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Old 03-09-2011, 06:24 PM   #7
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Old 03-09-2011, 06:30 PM   #8
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I recommend these two movies to jumpstart the process for asking questions -

Religulous (2008) - IMDb

The Invention of Lying (2009) - IMDb

Make your family watch it. You'll laugh and they'll choke. Here is full Religulous on Google Video http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...7322683758535#
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Old 03-09-2011, 06:33 PM   #9
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to say it in sheen's words: DUUUH, WINNING


dude, I'm surprised it took you so long to realize this.
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Old 03-09-2011, 06:35 PM   #10
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Disregard religion, acquire Vedic knowledge.
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Old 03-09-2011, 06:43 PM   #11
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Welcome to the dark side, broseph. Once you become atheist, all the pieces suddenly come together. Yet in the end, the big picture doesn't make any sense at all. It's like trying to rationally decipher a fucking expressionist painting. Fucking impossible. But eventually you'll realize that it doesn't have to make sense.

I'm pretty sure people will disagree with me here, but leave your family be. Keep your lack of faith to yourself. It's not that hard. Religion is bigger than life itself for some. Read Camus instead. You'll enjoy it.
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Old 03-09-2011, 06:45 PM   #12
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Religion and Politics the topics you can argue forever! Not worth it. Everybody has it's own truth. Though i share your views, it's better to keep your IMHO with yourself.
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Old 03-09-2011, 06:55 PM   #13
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Yeah, I've read many religious books and was a bit religious before. Koran and Bible are based on the same events and both teach about 1 God, but they keep on fighting trying to divide the 1. Then each group gets their own .5 and try to separate it between 1000s of denominations... Now I made up my own religion and don't give a shit about all the religious crap, kinda feel sorry for these people, missing out on a lot of good stuff. I still consider myself kind of Christian for the most part.

BTW, found this the other day:

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Old 03-09-2011, 06:57 PM   #14
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I'm going to argue against the whole beattitudes thing Jesus taught.

Think of the most successful people you know then ask yourself if they listen to the following:

-The poor in spirit; theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
-Mourners; they will be comforted.
-Those that hunger and thirst after righteousness; they will be filled.
-Those persecuted for seeking righteousness. Theirs is the kingdom of heaven.


In the real world pacificists are murdered. Plain and simple.

Religion is silly - Disregard Religion, Acquire Knowledge
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Old 03-09-2011, 07:07 PM   #15
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sensational narrative, daddio
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Old 03-09-2011, 07:11 PM   #16
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Quote:
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I answered some of your questions in a very ADHD kind of way. Those answers are by no means complete, just a guide.
As you said, you mainly study prophecy...

How can you conclude prophecies are valid when you only use material in 1 book? Just because you can prove that people existed in that time period doesn't mean you can prove all the miracles that actually happened. I could write "Today I cut my arm off and made it grow back", and if I passed that onto my kids who knew nothing about the world around them, they would believe that someone cut their arm off and made it grow back. "Silly" is the word I find myself most commonly using when arguing religion.

Ex. the Old Testament makes the prophecy that Jesus will be born and he will save everyone. How was that fulfilled? Well...in the New Testament it shows that Jesus was born, turned water into wine, and then saved the world (literally). You would call that a fulfilled prophecy...most others would call it the completion of a lie.

What also makes no sense is why we have no proof of religion today. Why did ancient humans get to see proof for hundreds and hundreds of years? But when we can actually record things and are smart enough to at least slightly understand science/physics...religion is gone only to return "like a thief in the night".
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Old 03-09-2011, 07:17 PM   #17
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Fallacy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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Old 03-09-2011, 07:20 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SUP3RNOVA View Post
"Come talk to Pastor Jerry and ask him all these questions we can't answer". I'm going to do that, so the question to you in this thread is : What would you ask him? (being serious about it)
I haven't read the entire thread, so I'm not certain about the direction it's taken. Apologies if I'm backtracking.

Here's what I would ask him (and I'm actually interested in his response):

"Pastor Jerry, for a moment, try to separate yourself from your vocation, your faith, and seminary training. Now, suppose you were trying to falsify the existence of God. Through logic and reason, avoiding all logical fallacies. In this role, you're playing - forgive the expression, Pastor - the devil's advocate. How would you do it? Be honest. Be frank. Be relentless. How?"

If he has training, he'll likely be open to the question, and treat it with honesty. I've known those who have gone through seminary. In my experience, they tend to be logical and thoughtful. That makes for an interesting conversation.
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Old 03-09-2011, 07:23 PM   #19
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All the primary options require some amount of faith -- be it the one who believes in some flavor of a higher power; the one who says there is no such higher power; and the one who says i do not / can not know.

the issue is one of epistemology (the theory of knowledge) & presuppositions. for example, the laws of logic tend to be assumed and adhered to (well, OK, not always...) but how do you explain these non-material things in a material world? using the laws of logic (without explaining the origin of or certainty of) is not much different from quoting the bible

on your family - just tell them you are trying to figure things out
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Old 03-09-2011, 07:36 PM   #20
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You question the pastor all you want, and eventually the pastor will be forced to say "you have to take it on faith". That's not a good answer for you, but it will be a good enough answer for everybody around you, including your family.
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Old 03-09-2011, 07:44 PM   #21
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I've studied up quite a bit on religions, as well as on science and I've done plenty of reading and research, which brought me to the point where I became an atheist.

In terms of your family, you really have to just get to the point where you don't hate their beliefs, no matter how close-minded or irrational it seems to you. Keep in mind, you believed what they believed for most of your life, so for them to believe it can't seem absurd to you.

You have to realize that the majority of the world is not on your side, and its your decision to believe what you believe, just like its everybody else's decision to believe what they believe. If you want to fight every day, challenge people about their religion. You'll have much more piece of mind, and overall peace by just believing what you believe and keeping it to yourself, or discussing it with people in civil manner. But when it comes to proving your points with people who are close-minded that doesn't share your beliefs, you're not gonna get anywhere.. just like they wont get anywhere with you.

You touched up on it -- but I'd also ask about the universal moral code. It's the morality code that each successful religion shares -- but also a code that most successful civilizations have adhered to. Religions have evolved over time, and have borrowed from each other. They're all the same in one way or another.

Anywho, good luck with your search.
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Old 03-09-2011, 07:55 PM   #22
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Old 03-09-2011, 07:58 PM   #23
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Just get over it, it's a waste of time and energy. It's not worth getting your panties in a bunch and causing unnecessary conflict by challenging their beliefs and trying to become some sort of agnostic crusader. I've gotten into plenty of debates/arguments throughout the years with my parents, it's just not worth it.
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Old 03-09-2011, 07:58 PM   #24
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Read books by Hitchens and Dawkins. While they can both be quite extreme, they can help shape the things you really dislike about religion, and usually give you enough ammunition to completely stump any standard priest/pastor.
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Old 03-09-2011, 08:15 PM   #25
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Read books by Hitchens and Dawkins. While they can both be quite extreme, they can help shape the things you really dislike about religion, and usually give you enough ammunition to completely stump any standard priest/pastor.
Sam Harris as well.
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Old 03-09-2011, 08:16 PM   #26
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lol religion lol. such a waste of time. don't even bother.
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Old 03-09-2011, 08:28 PM   #27
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You question the pastor all you want, and eventually the pastor will be forced to say "you have to take it on faith". That's not a good answer for you, but it will be a good enough answer for everybody around you, including your family.
-Since Cardine is God, it's a safe bet that this is the best answer on the thread.

Best of luck on your 'coming out.' - My own experience is similar but I have bigger reasons to hate my family and it was easy (downright necessary) for me to leave them behind forever.

I fully recognize that you're not likely to find it as easy to leave them or otherwise separate yourself from them, but I'm sure that most atheists would agree that if you stay in contact with your family, you will be spending the rest of your life being upset and wanting to 'reform' them... But failing to do so.

Rule #1: You can't change anyone's religion. Not even a little sister that looks up to you; You're only going to make them believe that you have lost your mind and they'll pity you.

In fact, I wouldn't talk to that preacher if I were you. What possible good can come from it? Whatever good thing you're looking for, he's already trained not to give you.

PS: Agnosticism is just a word that means: I like to keep all my bases covered, just in case... It doesn't allow you to feel as free.
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Old 03-09-2011, 08:29 PM   #28
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I think (personal thoughts, I don't want to cause an uprising here) that religion is for the weak, the people who are too scared to live by their own beliefes, so they adopt other peoples'.
Now that you have "broken free", you can see just how "influencial" those pasters can be, and that their followers really don't have "free will".
For these people, they take comfort at the fact of having such a fixed routine, which focuses on many good values as well.
Don't go all out war now that you have given up on chrisitanity. Religion (christianity) has many good causes, such as charity, kindness etc...
Sure it comes at a price, putting your life's savings in the basket, but people who follow a rigorously religous lifestyle take pride in it, and they sleep well at night, which is what matters. The only thing that I find to be a problem is their lack of tolernace towards others, in this case - you. They don't understand anything outside their customs, they can't. Don't hold it against them in the way of "we don't agree with you because you're stupid." They really don't understand what it is to live without god's "oversight".
Anyways, I think I've stressed the topic far enough. You just need to come to terms that you have branched into a different direction than of your familie's. Trying to "flip" them won't help. Try to stay close with them, and be understanding of their dependancies. Hopefully they will do the same, and your relationship with them will strengthen.
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Old 03-09-2011, 08:40 PM   #29
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Ehem.. It's sad that some of you view other peoples beliefs or non beliefs as weakness. Some people need to believe to complete themselves, if that helps them have fullness of life, who are you to judge. The truth of the matter is that life is so short, we all should enjoy the ride and conquer.

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Old 03-09-2011, 08:49 PM   #30
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Perhaps you haven't heard the good word of Benny Hinn?


Or try this one;

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Old 03-09-2011, 08:57 PM   #31
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people die -- something or nothing happens at that point
people live -- they have some degree of emotions, volition, values, etc
there is a world -- it either was always here/evolved from something (that was already here) or was made via a higher force/being/etc.
The idea that it just somehow got here but random chance/explosions sounds like a macbook air popping out of an explosion at an aluminum factory.
if there was design/intentionality/creation involved, this opens the can of worms known as religion. it is not intellectual weakness or cowardice to consider the possibility that your/our existence is not a random chemical-biological-etc. chance

athiests tend to be granted the high ground in arguments about life/god/death --but a lot of their arguments are empty and self congratulatory -- like the emperor's new clothes.
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Old 03-09-2011, 08:58 PM   #32
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As you said, you mainly study prophecy...

How can you conclude prophecies are valid when you only use material in 1 book? Just because you can prove that people existed in that time period doesn't mean you can prove all the miracles that actually happened. I could write "Today I cut my arm off and made it grow back", and if I passed that onto my kids who knew nothing about the world around them, they would believe that someone cut their arm off and made it grow back. "Silly" is the word I find myself most commonly using when arguing religion.

Ex. the Old Testament makes the prophecy that Jesus will be born and he will save everyone. How was that fulfilled? Well...in the New Testament it shows that Jesus was born, turned water into wine, and then saved the world (literally). You would call that a fulfilled prophecy...most others would call it the completion of a lie.

What also makes no sense is why we have no proof of religion today. Why did ancient humans get to see proof for hundreds and hundreds of years? But when we can actually record things and are smart enough to at least slightly understand science/physics...religion is gone only to return "like a thief in the night".
So, take Messianic prophesy out of the equation. You have the book of Daniel nailing the rule of Alexander the Great on the head. Then, it goes further detailing that his kingdom would be split into four kingdoms upon his death. That happened exactly as the book of Daniel said it would. Because of these types of prophecies, people have tried to come in and say the book of Daniel was written after this happened, because they cant fathom how Daniel knew things like this in such detail. Since there is such detail, people do not really try to argue the prophecies as lucky guesses, instead they say they had to have been written after they happened.

Look at end time prophecy, also. Not, scary apocolyptic stuff, just general stuff. In 70a.d. Israle was wiped off the map, literally. It was renaimed Palestine. Btw, the bible prophecied the destruction of Jerusalem and that no stone would be left unturned. That was fulfilled - post bible.

In Dueteronomy (sp) the bible says that Israel would become a wasteland. Nothing would grow there, it would be a barren land. In 1867 (I think) Mark Twain toured Israel (Palestine) and said it was a cursed barren, desolate wasteland. That prophecy was fulfilled. But, in Ezekiel, the bible says the land of Israle would be reborn in the future. If you look at Israel today, it is a green country surrounded by dirt countries. That prophecy was fulfilled in the 1900's, way after the bible was written.

Those are just basic prophecies, again in ADHD form. But, the specificity of Bible prophecies sets it up to have errors. But, prophecies are fulfilled all the time.

I study bible prophecy as a "faith" builder.
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Old 03-09-2011, 09:16 PM   #33
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I'm sure all of those points will lead to more points, and I'm sure that in the end, he will have an answer for everything. I'm also sure that every answer he has is going to come from the Bible, which is illogical for obvious reasons. But that seems to be the way religious people (Christians in this case) argue...they prove prophecies in their Bible with other prophecies coming true...in their Bible.

Also I extend a 1/3 apology to turbo for always ragging on her raging atheism. I still disagree with being an asshole about it though.

It just sucks that I can already foresee this destroying my family...all over one gigantic lie.
Damn, You just made my night. You have given me hope that it's not to late for the rest of the people who have been brainwashed out there.

Well done.

(Wait, am I being punked?)

This is good at highlighting all the contradictions in the Bible:

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Old 03-09-2011, 09:22 PM   #34
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(Wait, am I being punked?)
Hehe, first thing I thought when I read this. Gratz though, guess it's going to be a rough ride for you but good luck.
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Maybe I should tell Travis to fuck off again, just to make sure I'm still fired. Sure would hate to get a phone call telling me I'm late for work and this was all just a dream.
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Old 03-09-2011, 09:23 PM   #35
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The idea that it just somehow got here but random chance/explosions sounds like a macbook air popping out of an explosion at an aluminum factory.
Wow, you have no basic understanding of evolution at all, do you?

If you have any formal training in Science with emphasis on evolution, then you must have no grasp of the length of time we have passed since the big bang, in which our planet formed.
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Old 03-09-2011, 09:28 PM   #36
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I fucking love that film, lorax... Man is it spot-on about religion in the USA.

In fact I don't think I've ever seen a better lesson, ever, on how to accept the stupidity of others.

Thanks for posting it. Will watch again, and will henceforth sound like less of a dick when some zealots attack atheism around me.

-I do wish they'd named it better though; I bet the name of it turns off a lot of people that think it's trying to push a spiritualism or philosophy on them.
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Old 03-09-2011, 09:45 PM   #37
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This is good at highlighting all the contradictions in the Bible:
YouTube - Quiz Show (Bible Contradictions)
I'm reading up about the story of Horus now (just finished Religulous and that's one of the points they bring up as valid), that would be something extremely interesting to bring up to followers of Jesus.

And to the person who said "Just leave them be, for the most part a religious person will live a good moral life, it's only a few that do bad, blah blah"...It's not about that, it's about the fact that you're stripping innocent children of their free will by teaching them literal fairy tales as divine truth...the whole idea of it is wrong. Religion in politics makes me want to spit up too.

Perhaps I've just swung a little hard to the other side of the fence initially and am a bit more extreme, but it really upsets me that people are okay with raising robots. I never really repeated the church lines with everybody else in church because I knew something wasn't right about it...people shouldn't have to congregate like zombies and confess that they're terrible shitty people that need to be saved. I mean ARE YOU KIDDING ME.

I might be praying for forgiveness next week...
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Old 03-09-2011, 09:48 PM   #38
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Ok, so no Santa and tooth fairy.. got it..
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Old 03-09-2011, 10:05 PM   #39
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Anybody know if there's any weight to this? It all looks interesting but I haven't really looked into any of the cases yet to see the unbiased similarities.

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Old 03-09-2011, 10:20 PM   #40
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Wow, you have no basic understanding of evolution at all, do you?

If you have any formal training in Science with emphasis on evolution, then you must have no grasp of the length of time we have passed since the big bang, in which our planet formed.
You should stop parroting things from your 7th grade science textbook.

evolutionary theory itself continues to evolve as those holding to it have little choice but to acknowledge its admit shortcomings. Periods of rapid change; multiple simultaneous evolution; and the like reflect that the theory is an educated guess.

Some of you might be familiar w/the british philosophy Antony Flew -- one of the more ardent athiests of the past 40-50 years who participated in countless debates on the subject.

he actually gave up atheism recently because there were just too many shortcomings. he isn't now christian/whatever but as i mentioned before, this has opened up the 'religion' can of worms for him. here's an excerpt of some interviews w/ him:
Biola > Page 1 : Biola News & Communications

anywho i really don't care what people believe but the lame arguments and ad nauseum mutual dry humping of athiests gets really old
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Old 03-09-2011, 10:54 PM   #41
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PS: Agnosticism is just a word that means: I like to keep all my bases covered, just in case... It doesn't allow you to feel as free.
If that's so, then I'm not an agnostic and I'm not an atheist. Call it uberist.

I'm open to the idea of intelligent design...it's possible because it's impossible to understand what it feels like to be smarter than we are.

I'm open to the idea of living in a computer simulation. It kind of makes sense that everything that we physically observe is just information. The letters and computers and pens and pencils are tools to get the message (or data) across. If computers can process enough data to render a consciousness 'thing', then it's possible we're just a rendering.

I'm open to the idea that when we die, we die. black...void...a.k.a. who cares, feeling like a void would theoretically be in perfect equilibrium.

I don't know though. What I believe is that there's no one person that can save the world...it has to be a collective effort of peace and the willingness to learn together as a human civilization. And until that happens (never), the only thing we really have as individuals is our day to day life, the small moments that make up the whole. Learn from mistakes, capitalize on small moments of happiness, make money, wait (or fight) for world peace...in no particular order. If God shows himself to me (bone-dry sober), then I'll believe him. Until then I'll just happily wait to die and see what's next.
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Old 03-09-2011, 10:54 PM   #42
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If you have come to the realization that you don't want or need to participate in that stuff anymore you don't need to convince them or prove them wrong in order to validate your own beliefs. As you yourself were once proof of, trying to debate them head on isn't going to change their minds -- it will probably just cause them to cling to their existing beliefs even harder. People need to come to their own conclusions.
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Old 03-09-2011, 10:57 PM   #43
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ask him how many little boys he had sex with
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Old 03-09-2011, 11:03 PM   #44
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in all seriousness, live ur life how ever you want you already wasted an hour creating this thread and I wasted 10 minutes replying to it.

religious is a personal matter.

my challenge to you and every athiest/agnostic out there. Do not discredit religion until you have tried every single one that exists. because like all the religions have claimed...THERE REALLY IS ONE TRUE CHURCH...that if jesus were to return to the earth today he will claim this particular church his own because this one religion is using his teachings properly and excercising his priesthood properly as he did when he was on earth.

If you search you will find that one true church I promise you.
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Old 03-09-2011, 11:04 PM   #45
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People need to come to their own conclusions.
That's all I'm trying to tell them. At least be open to the contradicting evidence and then THINK FOR YOURSELF, don't think what the Bible thinks about it.
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Old 03-09-2011, 11:13 PM   #46
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If you search you will find that one true church I promise you.
I'd like any evidence from a non Christian-biased source proclaiming all the events that happened.
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Old 03-09-2011, 11:18 PM   #47
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That's all I'm trying to tell them. At least be open to the contradicting evidence and then THINK FOR YOURSELF, don't think what the Bible thinks about it.
this. I have a very good friend who grew up in a fairly secular household who become religious, and I have no problem with that. He came to the conclusion himself.

Then I had a gf who couldn't think for herself and believed everything Christianity said without question because she was told to. That I had a problem with.
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Old 03-09-2011, 11:30 PM   #48
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As a baptist raised southerner, who has gone through all of what you're talking about above.


You know what? All this ....

You need to step back for a second and think.

"Am I doing this to be right? Or am I doing this because I actually hope to changes someone's opinion"

"Is being right going to hurt my family?"


((cause lets face it... you're right... the bible has so many inconsistencies etc and you're never going to get a real straight talk answer from a convicted preacher like that))



Best youth leader I ever met could say "I don't know." He recognized problems with his own religion.



Religion SHOULD be INTENSELY personal
(tell your family that to get them off your back otherwise if you tell them you're an atheist or whatever they'll just pray for you all the time).

It's the evangelists that fuck it all up.

Find God your own way... or don't.

Personally for me: "For Man to attempt comprehension of the afterlife, is as the tadpole trying to understand the frog."
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Old 03-09-2011, 11:40 PM   #49
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faith is believing in something completely even though you have plenty of evidence to the contrary.

a bit of kierkegaard could do wonders for your quandary..
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Old 03-09-2011, 11:47 PM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cardine View Post
this. I have a very good friend who grew up in a fairly secular household who become religious, and I have no problem with that. He came to the conclusion himself.

Then I had a gf who couldn't think for herself and believed everything Christianity said without question because she was told to. That I had a problem with.
As a Christian myself, I have been pouring through this thread tonight, just kind of watching people's answers. Very interesting stuff for me.

Cardine, I like your perspective and appreciate you for it. It is totally ridiculous for anyone like myself to simply claim to be a Christian and believe everything they heard in church because that is just the way it is. Anybody who says they are a Christian and also says they love the whole Bible probably has not read it all. There is a lot of death and general awfulness, not to mention hell. I really hate that part. But I won't start at argument here about the validity of any of it. It would be moot.

SU3RNOVA, from your original post -

"I'm sure all of those points will lead to more points, and I'm sure that in the end, he will have an answer for everything. I'm also sure that every answer he has is going to come from the Bible, which is illogical for obvious reasons. But that seems to be the way religious people (Christians in this case) argue...they prove prophecies in their Bible with other prophecies coming true...in their Bible."



I don'thave all the answers, and I hope he doesn't pretend to. And if all his answers come only from the Bible then he needs to sit down and think some more. Even the Bible itself (anyone see the irony in the fact that I am now using the Bible to quote a reason for not using the Bible?) says to test everything to see if it is true, and that verse does not mean by simply asking your pastor or finding another verse. it means to test it, pour over it, think it through, etc.

I could go about trying to answer your questions from my perspective, but that's not what your thread was about, so I will leave that be.

By the way, I hate most of the stuff in Religulous and Jesus Camp. Seriously, a Jesus theme park? Literally, "oh my God." Makes folks like me look like a dumbass. I actually attend a home church where we literally eat and live life together and help each other when we need it (we don't literally live together, we are just a real "community" I guess). Simple. None of the rest of that crap. I came to this point because I really do believe in God after much searching of my own, but I could do without all the fluff. But I digress.

Best of luck in your search for truth.
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