guerilla

The "review plz" mafia attitude here is getting old. If a vendor says no review copies, then let his thread sink or swim on people taking the risk or negotiating a discount. Sorta the way it was last year.

Some folks call in mods because they can't extract free shit from every new vendor gets old fast. Veteran service providers don't need to be told about reviews, they already know up front if they want to do them or not. Some vendors won't do them because they are bullshit handouts, and you can get paying customers to review for small discounts and extras, instead of handing out freebies and undermining the pricing of your product.

That's my two cents. Let itrader and rep push down bad vendors. Extortion is unnecessary, and threatening vendors with mod retaliation is just sad. I mean, I saw guys with less than 50 posts and only 1 month members trying to extort a vendor for free shit the other day. It's getting out of hand.

Let's not let this excellent BST turn into DP.

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radio

that would require reading the post first... seems half the time people are in a mad race to be the first!!1! to post review copy plz! that they don't even bother to see if one is offered or not.

i've made mention of this in a few threads - that first come, first served on review copies is a poor way to dole them out - and agree that it's rather DP in nature around wf BST as of late - funny thing is: it wouldn't be an issue if vendors didn't fulfill the requests! lol.

but there are exceptions to the rule too - there's a thread currently that is in dire need of reviews - and it's finally getting them. there were more "any reviews?" "would buy if there were reviews" posts than actual posts. that was a weird one though.

finally, i agree that the wf bst is fucking amazing...

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bay37

I know I'm not yet an established member, but heres my 2 cents anyway:

I often buy various services here on WF - link building, articles... And I must say that the whole "review copy plz" crowd has been getting fucking annoying lately.

It seems that lately the fucking review beggars have ruined at least half of all the new threads from new service providers. Fuck off already. If you are a power-buyer, contact the seller by PM and negotiate a deal. Or take a discounted copy if there is one.

Smart new providers will contact legitimate/respected/not fucking begging members/mods and offer them a free copy in exchange for a review.

Retarded ones will fail anyways, free review copy or not. Let it be that way.

guerilla

I know the thread you are talking about.

The odd thing in that thread is that the vendor is making sales, and doesn't seem distressed by the lack of reviews. The people who are distressed about the lack of reviews are potential customers and yet some people are buying the service anyway.

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ayzo

I agree, it's getting out of hand. Take this douchebag for example:

http://www.wickedfire.com/members/ttime.html

Nearly all his posts in the buy/sell/trade section are request for review copies and he just joined last month.

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nanexo

yep

what about that cockroach "sticks" all he does is extort any newcomer and he NEVR buys anything fukking deadbeat loser if u ask me

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dodgy

Fuck that is Funny...Bookmarking this, and opening the chips ....Yo Sticks..where you at...

LazyHippy

Can I please ask vendors that give out "review copies" to report members that don't then post a review.

Also, think about who you are getting to review your service - a review from an established member is likely to bring in more sales than one from a one post wonder.

As for reporting vendors that don't give out reviews... fuck off! It's up to them at the end of the day and I doubt any mod is gonna come in on the side of those wanting the free shit.

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Sticks79

Bahahahahahahahaha, you know me too well, who gave you my info!?!?oneone!1!!

And I'd like a review copy to whatever it is you are selling plz, kthxbye.

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bb_wolfe

My .02, but if you restricted the BST section to people who only have 20+ posts and positive rep and positive iTrader, you'd get rid of a lot of the bullshit.

I personally think the BST section should be for contributing members, not any old vendor. If we want a vendor section, make it separate from BST and throw a $20/post fee on it. That keeps BST for legitimate, trustworthy vendors and puts a reasonable barrier to entry on the vendor section.

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Mike

That's not a bad idea, and we've gone over that many time in the staff area. Problem is: it could kill the BST area. There have been a few members that came to WF specifically for BST and have turned out to have great services as well.

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dodgy

+Rep Ayzo,

Lets Ban the Bastard.

barman

Bunch of freeloaders.

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TylerL

Get a mod dedicated to BST, start warning and suspending the idiots, eventually people will stop being so fucking dumb in fear of being banned. I've asked for a few review copies before but I can't stand kids spamming it. I'd honestly be a BST mod.

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linkscrawler

Make review requests binding.

Limit the accounts of people who fail to post a timely or informative review.

If your review sucks, pay for the product.


If there are members who are particularly awful at reviews, soft ban them.

You could also limit the number of review copies that any one member can request.

Three reviews per month sounds about right.

Vendors can always seek out reviews before posting a sales thread.

One difference between this place and DP is that on DP, most of the products being sold are complete bullshit and most of the reviews are fake.

Red_Virus

hits the nail on the head.

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bb_wolfe

I totally volunteer.

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Trademark

I'd like to see as little regulation as possible in the BST forum. There are problems, but most of the senior members and moderators do a remarkable job of keeping a lid on the knuckleheads. The system seems to work.

When members seek excessive freebies, they damage their own reputation. Eventually, that hurts them. That is how it should be. When I see a person asking for free review copies, I discount that person, their review (if they offer one), and any iTrader given to the vendor.

Were I to see a flagrant freebie-seeker harassing a trusted member in that member's BST thread, I would intervene. I have seen other senior members do the same.

The system works.

I'm always leery of rules, especially when it comes to commerce. Rules tend to creep.

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JamesH

Review cpy plz

subigo

Someone find the exact post where "review cpy plz" went from being a joke, to being serious.

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irideflatland

Restrict thread starters or restrict everyone? What about the people that get neg rep for no reason? And how do you get a positive iTrader if you can't get in the BST section?

But if you're talking about just restricting the thread starters, then nevermind.

bb_wolfe

That's my idea, neg rep, you're fucking out.

Itrader that's not - means <=0

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greenleaves

I really like the BST section. Sure it has its issues, but I think there couldn't be a better system right now.

Only 1 out of 10 service providers are worth something, so it would be a shame to loose that small percentage because of restrictions of Itrader/rep.

The mods do a great job, and I've gotten some good business done from noobs in the BTS section.

dodgy

Must agree with a greenleaves and Trademark. The section works well on the whole, and more regulation is Not whats needed however the odd occasional moron, ( ttime) does need to get slapped and hard.

A dedicated mod could work....

bb_wolfe

The BST section is a mudpit full of turds and very few diamonds. There is nothing wrong with a free-for-all vendor section, but BST should be reserved for contributing WF members, not any old DP fuckhead or one post content writer who thinks they can scrap a few dollars off the WF noobs.

BST - Top quality services and products
Vendor - Anything goes

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nanexo

Agreed and a great solution for anyone as it builds confidence for buyers and gives sellers that are respected value back

While all others still have enough freedom to "rock and troll" in the vendor section

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iamthewalrus

I know I'm LTTP, but I hate the whole trend of constantly demanding review copies. I'm a newb and I have no problem giving out reviews at first to prove myself, but even after they're gone, I'm still getting PMs from nobodies with condescending attitudes (ttime being one of them) demanding free work. That shit is fucking annoying and this whole sense of entitlement is ridiculous.

I don't know how seperating BST and a general Vendor section would play out. I'd think if that other section is "everything goes", it might cheapen the forums, although having a section strictly for the cream of the crop would definitely alleviate concerns for buyers.

I don't think there should be any discrimination against those with low rep/iTrader since some newbs do offer some good quality stuff. Maybe closer moderation might help a LOT.

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nanexo

when they prove themselves they can go to the real B/S/T after a mod approving them
untill then they stay in the vendor section

btw I vote for BB_Wolfe becoming moderator of bst/vendor section

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turbolapp

People should ask for review copies. And if the vendor says no then that should be that. It does, however, bug the crap out of me when vendors don't give review copies and no one buys their shit and then they keep doing the Bueller thread bumping, "Anyone?, Anyone?" and i reserve the right to tell them that their being idiots and they should offer a review copy or gtfo. But, yeah, as guerilla said, if they want to be their own worst douchebag, I guess we should let them.

guerilla

You ever sell anything in the marketplace Turbo?

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turbolapp

As an independent? (not inculding working the 9-5?) Hell no. There's no way in hell I would want my livelyhood to depend on a direct relationship with the customers.

guerilla

I disagree that people are their own worst douchebags for not giving reviews. Some of the more successful $150+ per service/good dealers on this board, many haven't gone the review route.

It is incorrect to assume that a review copy of a $200 link service is the same as a review copy of a $15 service.

Most of the people asking for reviews on big ticket items, can't afford them. It's strictly asking for a handout.

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turbolapp

I disagree with your disagree.

First I wasn't saying they were there own worst douchebag for not giving out reviews per se I was referring to the threads where they keep bumping it and no responds. (perhaps this would be a good time for that review copy then???)

Second every service doesn't need a review. Sometimes the sheer awsomeness of the product/service is enough. Or perhaps it's from an established member. But I would say the majority of BST is from members who at least start with little to no posts and no credit. IMO it's just stupid to not start out with a review.

That being said I agree that the attitude of members should change. The throwing-fits-like-my-1-year-old when the vendor opts out of doing a review copy or even worse when the vendor doesn't pick the troll throwing the fit, is about done in my book.

QualityContent

Personally I think the best way to get rid of all the shit in the BST section is to make anyone who wants to post something pay $10 and also have to get their product/service reviewed by the mod of the BST section.

I came here with no posts, no itrader, etc but I have still made thousands working a few hours a day with some really cool people here.

I think the people who offer the best services here will gladly pay the fee because they know their different and they know they have something worth offering.

The majority of the people posting in that section that offer shit simply won't pay the $10 fee.

Just my 0.2 cents...

Eric

P.S- Another great idea, if you can do it, is to simply say to have your thread going in the BST section you must pay $20 every month. Simply have it on a membership platform and charge whatever you want.

Recurring monies...

Refrozen

I partially agree with the idea here. I think the ideal solution would be to have a formalized review copy system - extra coding work for sure, but a poster in B/S/T could fill out a form while posting the thread that said they'd offer X review copies. Users could then request review copies along with posts by checking a box ("I'd be willing to review this product" or whatever).

Thread owner grants review copies as desired.

The caveat here is that only users >20 posts, or only users with +iTrader or whatever could request review copies and actually be granted them.

I hate the idea of a dedicated BST moderator. If we were going to do that though, it'd have to be someone who isn't selling a product in a competitive market - i.e., it could definitely not be Nick, or Amit; the two people who seem most suited for the job.

Changing the culture would be better. I'm not going to stop offering review copies of my products unless I'm told I have to, but it'd definitely be great to stop all the "LOL CAN I HAZ FREE STUFF" crowd.

Perhaps a formalized review process - where a number of users volunteer to be the review team, users who have the time to actually review a set of products (moderators included), and some sort of UI for that usergroup to select products they'd like to review (and some sort of system to ensure everything does get reviewed).

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outcome of this discussion is?

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Trademark

At the risk of sounding redundant...

I vote for leaving things as they are. The BST forum is not perfect, but it works well. Here are the issues (as I see them) and solutions:

Problem #1: Members harassing vendors for free review copies.

Solution: Asking is fine. If requests turn to harassment, existing moderators or members should tell the harassers to "cool it."

It's subjective. Each person will have a different tolerance level. But, we place a lot of trust and faith in each other. That's the way communities should operate. Could you imagine someone relentlessly harassing Amit for a free copy of his established services? Who here would not be willing to confront the harasser?

As for new vendors, the decision to give free review copies should be left entirely to them. When I first began selling my services in the BST forum, I did not offer review copies. Members tolerated my thread and I did well. Few, if any, harassed me.

Problem #2: Members running to moderators because vendors refuse to give free review copies.

Solution: Existing moderators should ignore members' requests to get involved.


Rules sound good on paper. But, they always carry unintended consequences. I suspect that's how DP evolved into such a draconian community. The rules they established must have seemed reasonable in the beginning.

Again, I vote for leaving things as they are in the BST forum. The harassment of vendors should be discouraged. The requests for moderator intervention should be ignored. Other than that, the "Wild West" nature of the forum is what makes it so unique and fluid.

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bb_wolfe

Problem I have is the low quality of many vendors. Used to be that WFers sold the shit they themselves build and that they used themselves, more of a way to get some money back out in BST. Some of the vendors now are just fucking terrible service providers. It's scammy, it's cheap, and it reeks of noobishness.

Why can't we implement some sort of quality score with all vendors?

No idea how it would work, but wfers can rate the post, rate if it's scammy, a good deal, something already done to extremes (writers... )

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nanexo

Fixed

ntlyke

As a vendor, I have to say, that giving review copies help a lot, even though "the reviewer" posts 2-3 stupid sentences.

I don't support giving free designs as a designer. I think it doesnt worth what I get compare to what I give.

But things works so in the forum.

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Refrozen

I think Nick hit one of the worst problems right now. EVERYONE is a writer or a social bookmarker. EVERY THREAD.

This makes software products (that have real quality, and people DO care about) like Nick and I's, fall off very quickly. You simply cannot compete with 10 threads a minute offering third rate writing or social bookmarking that all comes in on the same account or some other crap. Let's be honest, no one really wants to buy social bookmarking from anyone but Amit, because he's a hero.

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bb_wolfe

So it's settled. The only ones who can use BST are Amit, Refrozen, and myself.

Everyone else, fuck off.

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nanexo

Did I hear someone Bark?

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guerilla

That's cold.

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erect

Lots of good banter here but this reply really strikes a chord with me

Seriously ... EveryFuckingBody sells content or links ... it's like 98% of the BST.

I make my monies off repeat customers, partially because that's the way it should be and partially because I'm forced to as I have better things to do all day than look out for my thread.

It's severely limiting to the amount of exposure you get when a day after a someone posts on your thread it's dropped on page 4.

You would be surprised the difference in # of requests I get from new people looking for keyword research when someone randomly posts in my thread. It's really the difference between 5 people getting with you in a day vs. 2 people in a week. Honestly, it's not because someone is finally interested after seeing the 50th review posted ... it's simply a lack of exposure.

In the end, I'm against bumping so really I've just let CS chill out ... it's kind of a shame as it's given a lot of new marketers a good start in PPC (including 5 of the top 10 NE3ers that I know of).

Slingin' reports is not where I make my money so business dying off a little isn't a big deal to me, but at this point it's really a disservice to noobs who don't even know this service exists. Ditto for WFreview, radio's ebay plugin, rage's (ex) FB scraper, etc.

Since I'm against any kind of regulation, I see only a couple of possible solutions.

1> preferred venders - Move us fuckers to our own forum so that we get the exposure we deserve without having to hawk our warez against the noobs who have nothing better to do than bump

2> Open more sub-forums (this is a good solution actually). Links are separate from content are separate from software are separate from prostitution. Mods, it's a long time overdue!

BST is just a clusterfuck that's really not doing anyone justice at this point. Someone do something, quite frankly it's just doesn't work.

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LazyHippy

Sub-dividing BST seems like the best solution to me and is something that has been talked about on and off for a while now. I'll see if we can get things moving on that.

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Red_Virus

I suggested this a year back, to have a posting limit (say 25 posts or even 50 posts) for some one to create a thread in the BST, that will weedout a lot of newbies from bumping thread and creating new accounts to bump the threads. I mean you should contribute to the community also.

Also why not have a paid system (I know i am going to get flamed), something like you pay like $50 to create a new thread in the SBT section, that will weed out of all crap of the same service being posted again and again and again.

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bb_wolfe

I'd be all for a $50/post fee.

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glowleaf

Guys, the forum engine is not the greatest platform for a marketplace. Yes software threads get buried fast from link vendors etc. The best solution I think are subcategories in the BST.
I think giving paid threads is not a good option, wickedfire's marketplace is pathetically quiet even as it is, compared to other sites.

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guerilla

I'm not sure the cost is a good idea, $50 is dear. And setting a posting limit will just encourage more spammy posts elsewhere. The one things scammers have to waste, is time. Plus the $50 is a tax.

An alternative idea is to sell time limited stickies. It's more in line with capitalism. Or a paid and a free forum, one public (paid) and one private (free).

I think better organization is a good idea. One idea is to divide offers by type. Another one is to make the BST private (if it isn't already) and promote good services to a publicly available forum. Something like, "verified providers".

Just spit ballin.

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