xentech

I just don't get it. I don't live in the USA so maybe I'm not getting the full picture, but WTF is with the debate on health care? They use the NHS (UK's Health Service) as an argument for not getting government run health care which I just plainly don't understand. First of all the NHS really isn't that bad, and from what I've read about private health care in the USA I'd rather take my 'shitty' free health care, but that's
besides the point. Everyone (obviously not everyone) in the USA seems to be acting like this would completely ruin their country and people would be dying all over the place but what they don't seem to grasp is you can still get private fucking health care in the UK if you can afford it.

So here's the situation in the US right now
Only people with money have private health care

And here's what it would be like with government run health care
People with money still have 'good' private health care
Less fortunate people at least get some 'shitty' health care

The other thing I don't get is most of the people arguing against government health care seem to be Christians. What would Jesus do motherfuckers, what would Jesus do? Would Jesus give health care to rich people only or would Jesus try and get everyone decent health care?

PS I'm probably talking from a point of ignorance because I haven't really looked into this issue.

pacman0r

I smell a health care reform rebill OTW

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Majic

I used to prefer the private system the US has.

Until I heard that someone that was actually insured could not get any more chemotherapy. Her insurance had a clause and she had survived her cancer too long. Despite the problems of the NHS this would of never happend in the UK.

Given the amount of wealth capitalism has created I think healthcare should be one of the things that any modern country should cover. The US should bite the bullet whatever the cost.

Isostar13

^^^ Interesting point, however, many cancer drugs aren't even available in the UK because the NHS has deemed them not cost-effective for patients. That's what NICE, the evaluation committee for pharmaceuticals in the UK does on a regular basis. They ask themselves, is it worth having maybe one or two people live and us paying $250k? Nope, ok, then we won't allow that drug to be used here and paid for by the NHS. Good day sir.

To the OP: The reason smart people are against health care reform is not because we're worried that we won't have our own private plans anymore, but because Obama wants to literally redistribute our hard earned money (even more so than it already is) by increasing taxes to pay for healthcare for unproductive members of society. That's socialism at its core.

Here's an extreme view not yet held by me but something that made me think a bit. Why is it that people think they have a 'right' to healthcare? If you look at the evolution of humans, has there ever been a society that progressed fast and well by keeping every single old, sick or weak person around and using all their resources to ensure their comfort and safety? We (humans, as a species) used to do things just like animals. When someone in your herd is too sick to continue, you leave them behind. Why? Because they know that they would be taking up countless resources that diminish the survivability of everyone else. I believe Native Americans also used to do something similar. In some tribes, as elder became sick and weak and could not contribute anymore, they would wander off alone into the woods or up a mountain and let their bodies return to nature.

Now, like I said, this is an extreme way to look a things, but its only extreme because of how soft and unproductive our societies have become. No one cares that not only did humans stop evolving a long ass time ago, but in many ways, we de-volved. No one cares that everything we (humans) touch turns to shit. We kill off ecosystems like its our job. And NOW, we want to make sure everyone lives as long as possible no matter how much a piece of shit they are and we want the most productive individuals in society to be taxed extra to pay for it all.

Here's a short story from Kurt Vonnegut. If you're socialist, you'll love it. If you're a capitalist, it'll make your blood boil.

"Harrison Bergeron" by Kurt Vonnegut

BlueYonder

I agree with you, and it's vexing to millions of Americans, but I can give you a simple explanation:

Health care in the UK is mostly that: care for the sick. In the US, it is largely a commodity, and delivered by profit-making corporations such as insurance companies and pharmaceuticals. The delivery of health care is only besides the point when they're really trying to deliver a profit. This creates a system where they will use everything in their power to maintain the bottom line, pay their shareholders and resist any tinkering with the system.

Ditto the pharmaceutical industry which gets US taxpayer dollars to develop certain drugs, charges a premium to the US taxpayers for those drugs, sells the drugs at a discount to foreign markets because they have to, and lobby maintain their patents beyond the natural expiration date to maximize profits.

This, along with a well paid army of health care industry lobbyists, CEOs paid in the hundreds of millions a year, health care companies giving large contributions to politicians, and you have a dysfunctional system that enriches insurance companies and pharmaceutical companies and progressively prices consumers out of the market.

I expect to get flamed for this post, but I gave a very realistic description of the capitalism of health care and why it isn't working.

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xentech

If you want those drugs in the UK there are still private health insurance companies who will provide them if you have the money, just like in America.

You say 'we would be paying for the health care of unproductive members of society', that's fucked up dude. You're basically saying that anyone who is too poor (for whatever reason) to afford health care is an unproductive member of society, which is complete BS.

I'm as greedy as the next fucker but I honestly don't care if my taxes go on helping other people recover from terminal diseases. I think if you had to personally deny dying people health care you would think twice about this shit.

What's your issue with socialism anyway?

BlueYonder

There are lots of callow people here making a lot of money at a very young age who think they're the shit. According to them, anybody who needs help can suck it in and die because Darwinism is the way of nature.

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jbubs1975

^We already pay for healthcare for all the unproductive people - people in jail or prison, old people, disabled people, unemployed or under employed people, people on welfare. The people national healthcare will help are the ones who have decent jobs and are working hard but have to pay half of their weekly salary for health insurance.

So is it socialism that my taxes are spent on public schools? I don't have kids. Is education a right?

Isostar13

Yes public schools is another example of redistribution of wealth.

Yes I am heartless. Fuck paying more taxes to help heal other people.

Yes, I would tell people to their face, no I'm not paying for your surgery. Fuck you.

I have had medical hardships myself and my parents have as well but we never once relied on anyone else to bail us out. Cancer treatments nearly bankrupt my mom but she made it, on her own.

The reason we can't deliver care to everyone who is a productive member of society and needs it is because our resources are being strained covering all those asshats who show up at the ER with no insurance/nothing and feel they deserve care, even though they know they won't be paying for it.

Even without AM I've worked and paid for healthcare. It's not impossible.

WickedJoe

Xentech, I agree 100%.

My theory on everything right now is that we U.S. people are acting completely batshit because our media has gone completely batshit. You would not believe how thick the fucking propaganda is over here. It's incredible and it comes from everywhere.

No one knows if the info they get is right or wrong.. so they pick a few sources they think seem right and stick with them. Unfort those sources are usually completely biased too. It's all fucked up.

Also, we have 3 political groups (at least) in this country - liberals, conservatives, and the conspiracy groups.

The conspiracy groups have risen up because of the continual ass raping of the American people by terrorists, shady government, unjustified wars, and certain ruthless corporations. This has mostly happened in the last 9 years.

Also it seems no one profits here from reporting the news to us in a sane way - neither media nor government. It's got to be over-hyped, over-sensational, over-feared, over-emotional. And now we are a nation of complete paranoid batshit fucks.

And now we're all stocking up on guns and ammo for some big orgasmic release of all this rediculousness. Well fuck it. Lets have at it, cunts. It's just a shame the people who deserve the bullets the most wont get them.

xmcp123

A bunch of lunatics on either side getting coverage, everyone in the middle getting ignored. That's wtf the debate on health care is.
That's the crazies.
Right now there's so much propaganda going out that what you(or I) read is pretty much useless.
It pretty much comes down to this: The companies are shady as fuck, but work properly 99% most of the time. There's few people who argue against the need for reform. Most just have an issue with the public option.
The people really raising hell are the people who aren't working and don't have health care. It's not so bad of a system if you actually have it.
But right now it's not a 'can you afford it' here. It's a 'if you have a decent job you already have it and your employer covers it'.
Beyond that, our government is full of idiots. Seriously, think about the past 8-9 years. Those people WILL be in power again someday. And even if they're not, we've already bankrupted every similar attempt we've had (medicare, social security, etc) by borrowing against it. Our politicians have proven over and over again they're not up to it.
That's not how it works here. They want to cover everything. So when the next group of idiots freaks out about SARS, we'll have to vaccinate the whole damn country.
Not to mention right now the argument for smoking/marijuana/drinking often comes down to "It's my body and it doesn't affect you...fuck off". You can't make that argument once the public plan is a reality, because it does affect everyone. So your choices are either deal with the costs(not going to happen in this nanny state), regulate personal decisions(more likely) or lock people who smoke/drink/are obese out of the plan(even though they have to pay for it).
No, that's what we refer to as our "vocal dumbasses". They're the ones you see on TV, or hear about on reddit. But they're not the entire base or anything like that.
Honestly, if you read around online that's the impression you're going to get. But it's a bunch of fucking idiots on both sides that are getting coverage.

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xentech

Useful response. That's why I had to say add that I was probably arguing from a point of ignorance because there is clearly so much BS smeared on both sides of the fence.

xmcp123

No, but I think a lot of people here don't want to spend money and get nothing in return.
Want me to support "public plan"?
Give it to anyone whose enrolled fulltime in a university. Cut costs out of the defense budget, and several other stupid 'pet projects', and use it to subsidize the cost of education so higher education is virtually free. Same goes for trade schools(sorry America, not everyone is going to be a doctor)

That way I'm at least getting qualified workers out of it. Plus once someone has the tools to succeed, it's no one's fault but their own if they don't. I'm fine with helping them get access to those tools.

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xmcp123

Oy. I'm still waking up so I'm taking a lot of political bait this morning. So here it goes:
Which is why you regulate them. You can easily pass bills with virtually no opposition dealing with things like this.
You mean the wealth that has largely disappeared over the last year?
Why? We don't have enough doctors. We don't have enough nurses. We don't have enough hospitals. We don't have enough money.
So just because I'm in a 'modern country' I should pay not only for my own health care, but for someone else's, when me doing so will likely result in me not being able to get my own care in a decent time span? Forgive me if I pass.
"Whatever the cost" for the rest of the world is different from "whatever the cost" in the states. We'll spend ourselves into a massive hole if allowed to.
So once again, why replace a system that could be dealt with using a single regulatory bill? Or the government rolling back it's changes?


One thing we should all be clear on here. The United States Government fucked up private health care. With overregulation they've made it so the plans are not exactly mobile, and you have to use providers within your own state. As a result there's many states with only 2 private providers. If they had not done this, we'd have dozens or even hundreds of plans. The dumbasses eliminated anything resembling competition.

Don't make the mistake of assuming our government is competent. Remember Iraq anyone?
Or the medicare/social security?
Or the fact we can't find a fucking 6 foot 2 afghani man dragging a damn dialysis machine through the mountains?

Even if you trust this administration not to be retarded...how much do you trust the unknown one to come after? What if for example(god forbid) Sarah Palin wins? You want her in charge of your health care?

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jenzkc

i agree we should deport all illegal immigrants before even considering govt. funded health care.

and as xmcp said above, people will be fucked either way. same shit, different label. politics vs. profit.

rgordon83

^ THIS

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hellblazer

If you don't live here, why are you opening your mouth? Keep your shitty health system, we don't want it.

Good Lord - what is it with foreigners sharing their unwanted opinions?

BigWill

Also, what about all these health insurance jobs that are going to be lost? Didn't we just spend billions to keep jobs afloat of companies that should have failed, now thousands of jobs at functional, profitable companies will be cut?

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kdempsey

Ok, so in as brief a statement as I can make this.

(1) Government run health care will put all private health care systems out of place. In a privately run company, you have to turn a profit or you fail, go into bankruptcy, etc. The government will not have to turn a profit. If it isn't working they will dump more money into the program through taxes and wasteful spending.

(2) Why would we want the government to run anything. Let's take a look at the industries they currently run: medicare - broke; Medicaid - broke; United Postal - broke. The government can never run something as well as private industry can. Why? Because they are politicians and are more concerned about being re-elected and pandering to the unions and lobbyists.

(3) Aside from having the government run the health care system into the ground and bankrupting us, politicians are NOT Doctors! Do you want to put your medial health in the hands of someone who hasn't spend 7 years studying to be a doctor and then spent up to an additional 6 training as one through an internship and residency? It will be politicians, not doctors, who are deciding what type of medical care you can receive and whom you can receive it from and just how much you can receive. What gives them the authority to make those decisions? (not that i am in favor of big insurance companies having control over these either... see point 4)

(4) So the big insurance companies and not paying for things or denying coverage for pre-existing medical problems.... it isn't their fault entirely. Through years of medical malpractice suits they've had to save their ass one too many times. So they said "fuck it" not worth the risk if we are just going to be burned in the ass in the end. What really needs to happen here to allievate their control over the industy and our health care is some medical Tort Reform. Doctors now are so in fear of being sued that they are calling for unnecessary tests - essentially practicing defensive medicine - so that someone can't come back and fault them for it. So why aren't we hearing more about this? Because Obama has decided that that should not be part of the health reform policy. Why? Because who do you think got him elected? Prosecutors w/ deep wallets.

(5) So the argument i hear is that we should provide health care for poor, etc. Ok. so Pass the bill. Did you know that in 10 years all those unisured will still not be covered by the system and we will be trillions of dollars in debt? That doesn't seem like an overhaul of our health care system that I want to pay for with my hard earned tax dollars. I'm already paying my taxes to pay for uninsured (and usually illegal immigrant) emergency room visits. Why would I volunteer to pay even more than I already do.

Those are my Top 5 reasons for protesting the health reform bill. I don't see it as privding better coverage to more americans. I see it as sinking our country's debt deeper into the ground.

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WickedJoe

I want to hear their opinions, Cunt.

Esp since it's fucking relative to the argument on whether socialized medicine works or not. So shut your tuna-smelling rotten cunt mouth.

thunderlips

and this is why this stuff will never work. We're too busy fighting amongst ourselves trying to be right.

LotsOfZeros

And look at how the politicians have us distracted. This healthcare overhaul is not about healthcare at all.

It's about control. Don't lose sight of that.

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LotsOfZeros

I LOL'd

Having Obama in control of my health care scares me even more. No politician should have so much control over our well being.

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evo190

No doubt... The more government jobs created, the more voters on election day.

So if the Feds take over banking and health care what's the next big sector of employment?

Trademark

Just wanted to seed the discussion with this article...

The Free Market: Four-Step Health Care Solution, A

In my opinion, it is the only approach to reform that makes sense.

I now promise to stay out of this thread.

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LotsOfZeros

Energy (Cap & Trade) is their next pet project for squeezing every last drop of power out of America.

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xentech

You are the reason people hate America.

I suppose a lot of jobs in private health care would have to be cut, but there would be a lot of jobs created in public health care at the same time.

LotsOfZeros

People hate America?

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Moxie

The media could help if they would more often throw out basic facts like :

avg spent per person US dollars 2006 :
USA = $6,714
Canada = $3,678

paid by the government :
USA = $3,089
Canada = $2,575


Wait, there are people on my television screaming that the world will come to an end if US tax payer money is used for health care like those evil Canadians. Hmm, maybe the problems are a lot more complex than the system used to pay for it?


How much of our monies would the government think they need for that to happen, to contain riots, etc.?


Good point, but you wouldn't even be typing that message to us without the government. Would you get rid of government "industries" like public schools, police, fire, NASA, FBI?

Most of the uninsured are citizens.


Not as many since Obama got elected.

Poll: US image abroad surges under Obama - Yahoo! News

LotsOfZeros

I've seen numbers on this and most of the uninsured are citizens of very little need (younger adults) who could actually afford health insurance but choose not to purchase it. I don't hear any of them screaming about not being covered


Of course not. If I had to choose between U.S. Sovereignty or bending over (ie: Obama's spineless apology tours), I'll take the hatred. We still have the bombs so screw them all if they don't like us.

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rgordon83

Here is something interesting i cam across. It's a bunch of very good questions about Health Care Reform that are not being publicly addressed by politicians.

Questions about health care reform (version 1.1) (gabryelski.com)

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mason

Instead of just saying government fails at everything maybe you should look at why it fails. Fedex and UPS both have control of where they deliver shipments. This means they can pick profitable routes and operate them. By choosing not to deliver to a lone farmer 100 miles away from the city, they save money. The USPS does not have that option. They have to deliver mail to every inch of the country. They also deliver UPS packages to places UPS doesn't. Imagine a world without USPS. It would be horrible. Maybe not so much today with the internet and such... but still, a disaster.

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rgordon83

This is only 1/2 the equation. Your stat only focuses on price, not quality.
Look for USA/Canadian comparisons on things like avg wait time for procedure, # of procedures covered, overall satisfaction with care, etc and you will find that it's a classic case of "you get what you pay for." It may be cheaper, but it blows.

And nobody likes us better b/c of obama. And on top of that, who cares what other people think

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rgordon83

Wrong. it would not be horrible b/c it would be replaced by private industries who would find a way to provide the service at a profit. That's what the private sector does. It has niche experts who fill voids in the market. It's called capitalism.

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Mastermind

you are talking from a point of ignorance.

you clearly don't understand why our country is the greatest country on earth in terms of progress.

the reason is small government. (although the ignorant are unfortunately slowly changing that)

your guilt trip does nothing for me. if you are willing to work in this country the rewards are greater than anywhere. period.

it's called capitalism.

BREAKING NEWS: not all of us want to be like your country.

More breaking news: not everyone hates us. you obviously don't travel much. whenever I do, it's the same as here - smart intelligent people love us and miserable people who have a disdain for capitalism don't.

that's nothing new. and if you think W caused that you obviously have no conception of history.

i've been to plenty of places from 2000-2008 where people LOVE us. it's all relative.

this is the land of opportunity, not the land of entitlement.

some of us like it that way.

edit: not all of that was addressed to you but i was too lazy to address everyone's idiotic remarks individually.

Moxie

The higher costs in the US have a lot more to do with than just quality. It's not a "we're awesome, they blow" black and white comparison.

FOXNews.com - U.S. Trails Others in Health Care Satisfaction - Health News | Current Health News | Medical News
Comparison of Canadian and American health care systems - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Anyways, my point was more to do with how some of the people shouting about "socialism" don't seem to be aware that they already live in a nation where the government spends a huge portion of their tax dollars on health care.

The CIA has done a good job documenting that more hatred against the USA = more terrorists.

guerilla

I love Hoppe.

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schockergd

I don't understand........

The VAST majority of hospitals in the US are non-profit hospitals , which means if you show up to the ER with a problem , they're required by law to treat you regardless of your ability to pay , if you don't pay they really can't do a whole lot.

I live in a very small town , but our local hospital looses 1.5m each year to this system , while good for the people that can't pay , it directly relates to increased costs of those who can pay.

The most upsetting thing about healthcare in the US is some of the incidents where people use it........Go to a nurse forum and read some of the threads about druggies who have showed up to the hospital litterally hundreds of times for ODing and the like , only to rack up 20-30k in medical expenses , to leave and come back again (there are litterally bums who have took millions of dollars from the healthcare system).


PS - The last news reports I saw said the Cdn and UK systems were both out of money and will require large taxes to be passed to continue on........

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slayerment

For one, I find it entirely suspect as to why they would push these bills when we are in a time of complete economic disaster. We have much bigger problems to worry about than health care.

I also am not an advocate of using an externally owned government to control these social programs. Why does the government get to be in charge? Why can't people just be good people and help others without the government? Maybe those pushing social programs turn out not to be as caring about others as they thought they were.

Why does everyone put so much faith in the government to do things? Is it not because they can't take care of themselves? Is somebody ruling over you or you ruling over yourself most beneficial for your well-being?

These are all such surface issues for surface people.

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errodr

^^ This.

The government controls too much of our daily lives as it is, why allow them more control? Additionally, all previous government meddling in healthcare have been disasters. Why would giving them more power even be a consideration?

popeye

I have studied the constitution in great depth. I don't EVER remember reading anything about health care being a "right". Single payer health care is a state issue. If you want to fail like Michigan and every other state that offers the public option then go right ahead. The federal government needs to stay the fuck out of my life and worry about keeping illegals and terrorist from swimming the Rio Grande.

Really there is no argument for federal single payer. The constitution lays out what the duties of the federal government is and health care isn't one of them.

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popeye

/thread /game

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papajohn56

Having the government with one giant database of the entire country's medical records is not only very "1984", but it means that law enforcement agencies will know even more about you. What prevents hackers from breaking into that database and selling the info, too? We all know nothing is hack proof

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IncomeSlayer

No one hates us they envy us

papajohn56

you support the pirate party. lol.

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egreenie

True story:

My ex husband's brother is an overweight, pot smoking, meth snortin', fast food junkie, and diabetic. As you can see, he doesn't think much about taking care of his body, and has ended up in the hospital many times because his blood sugar was so messed up he literally couldn't see straight. He's pushing 50 now, but shows no signs of slowing down with his destructive lifestyle.

He makes good money (dual income over 150K per year), but bitches about paying a few hundred dollars a month for his health insurance (family biz, no employer plan). I'm going to hazard a guess that for the last five years, he's come out ahead, since he's been hospitalized so many times.

With Obamacare, my tax dollars would go to pay for the consequences of his lifestyle. Please tell me why I should pay for him and tens of thousands more just like him?

And don't even get me started on how illegal immigrants are destroying the healthcare system. Around these parts, hospitals have reached their breaking point (they've been there for a while), and can barely stay open. Some have even had to close because the cost of treating illegals leaves them with not enough $ to treat the rest of their patients. We've lost several trauma centers here over the last few years due to illegals taking advantage of the fact that no hospital can refuse treatment in the US (not just non-profits).

I'm 100 percent for reforming health care, but NOTHING that is being proposed right now is going to do anything to make it better.

Enact tort reform, stop the illegals from sucking off the US teet and get rid of the corruption that's rampant in both the private and Govt sectors and you've got a start.

vcff10

I think I heard only 30 million people in the US dnt have health care so thats only 10% of the population....

20-30% of those people elect to decline health insurance offered at work the other 20 mm fuck em Im not paying for them to get better! This country is always tring to fix the Minority instead of listening to the Majority

VCFF

HockeyFan

The part that bothers me most, is something in there about after a few years the possiblity of not having private healthcare as a option.

Rage9

Well I got about half way through this thread before jumping in.

Is our system perfect, no. Is our system better than a total government control of our health care, probably. The government can not control costs what so ever. The government runs any government program into the ground without hesitation.

Furthermore if you actually study the healthcare bill (which you can see all the controversial points here), you'd see it's not much more than a government power grab. If the government can ration your health care then they become a danger. If you don't agree with the government you can be labeled a terrorist and denied health care. This is incredibly dangerous itself, not to mention things like:

• Page 30: A government committee will decide what treatments and benefits you get (and, unlike an insurer, there will be no appeals process)
• Page 58: Every person will be issued a National ID Healthcard. (this is going to be a form of world ID something many countries are fighting against)
• Page 145: An employer MUST auto-enroll employees into the government-run public plan. No alternatives. (disturbing because you won't have much of a choice, this is the way the government strong arms you into it)
• Page 280: Hospitals will be penalized for what the government deems preventable re-admissions. (so if you happen to come back with the same thing the government can punish the hospital and or doctors)
• Page 427: Government mandates program that orders end-of-life treatment; government dictates how your life ends.
• Page 429: Advance Care Planning Consult will be used to dictate treatment as patient's health deteriorates. This can include an ORDER for end-of-life plans. An ORDER from the GOVERNMENT.
• Page 430: Government will decide what level of treatments you may have at end-of-life.

Those last ones are really there, they would force you basically to see a counselor at least every 5 years to determine how much health care you can get. If your worth it that is.

So you see this 'universal healthcare' is nothing more than an ultimate power grab. Yes our system is not perfect but it's better than the government alternative, leave it at that.

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