Health Care

xentech

xentech

NFLol.
Aug 12, 2008
1,834
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Great Britain
I just don't get it. I don't live in the USA so maybe I'm not getting the full picture, but WTF is with the debate on health care? They use the NHS (UK's Health Service) as an argument for not getting government run health care which I just plainly don't understand. First of all the NHS really isn't that bad, and from what I've read about private health care in the USA I'd rather take my 'shitty' free health care, but that's
besides the point. Everyone (obviously not everyone) in the USA seems to be acting like this would completely ruin their country and people would be dying all over the place but what they don't seem to grasp is you can still get private fucking health care in the UK if you can afford it.

So here's the situation in the US right now
Only people with money have private health care

And here's what it would be like with government run health care
People with money still have 'good' private health care
Less fortunate people at least get some 'shitty' health care

The other thing I don't get is most of the people arguing against government health care seem to be Christians. What would Jesus do motherfuckers, what would Jesus do? Would Jesus give health care to rich people only or would Jesus try and get everyone decent health care?

PS I'm probably talking from a point of ignorance because I haven't really looked into this issue.
 


I used to prefer the private system the US has.

Until I heard that someone that was actually insured could not get any more chemotherapy. Her insurance had a clause and she had survived her cancer too long. Despite the problems of the NHS this would of never happend in the UK.

Given the amount of wealth capitalism has created I think healthcare should be one of the things that any modern country should cover. The US should bite the bullet whatever the cost.
 
^^^ Interesting point, however, many cancer drugs aren't even available in the UK because the NHS has deemed them not cost-effective for patients. That's what NICE, the evaluation committee for pharmaceuticals in the UK does on a regular basis. They ask themselves, is it worth having maybe one or two people live and us paying $250k? Nope, ok, then we won't allow that drug to be used here and paid for by the NHS. Good day sir.

To the OP: The reason smart people are against health care reform is not because we're worried that we won't have our own private plans anymore, but because Obama wants to literally redistribute our hard earned money (even more so than it already is) by increasing taxes to pay for healthcare for unproductive members of society. That's socialism at its core.

Here's an extreme view not yet held by me but something that made me think a bit. Why is it that people think they have a 'right' to healthcare? If you look at the evolution of humans, has there ever been a society that progressed fast and well by keeping every single old, sick or weak person around and using all their resources to ensure their comfort and safety? We (humans, as a species) used to do things just like animals. When someone in your herd is too sick to continue, you leave them behind. Why? Because they know that they would be taking up countless resources that diminish the survivability of everyone else. I believe Native Americans also used to do something similar. In some tribes, as elder became sick and weak and could not contribute anymore, they would wander off alone into the woods or up a mountain and let their bodies return to nature.

Now, like I said, this is an extreme way to look a things, but its only extreme because of how soft and unproductive our societies have become. No one cares that not only did humans stop evolving a long ass time ago, but in many ways, we de-volved. No one cares that everything we (humans) touch turns to shit. We kill off ecosystems like its our job. And NOW, we want to make sure everyone lives as long as possible no matter how much a piece of shit they are and we want the most productive individuals in society to be taxed extra to pay for it all.

Here's a short story from Kurt Vonnegut. If you're socialist, you'll love it. If you're a capitalist, it'll make your blood boil.

"Harrison Bergeron" by Kurt Vonnegut
 
xentech said:
I just don't get it. I don't live in the USA so maybe I'm not getting the full picture, but WTF is with the debate on health care? They use the NHS (UK's Health Service) as an argument for not getting government run health care which I just plainly don't understand. First of all the NHS really isn't that bad, and from what I've read about private health care in the USA I'd rather take my 'shitty' free health care, but that's
besides the point. Everyone (obviously not everyone) in the USA seems to be acting like this would completely ruin their country and people would be dying all over the place but what they don't seem to grasp is you can still get private fucking health care in the UK if you can afford it.

So here's the situation in the US right now
Only people with money have private health care

And here's what it would be like with government run health care
People with money still have 'good' private health care
Less fortunate people at least get some 'shitty' health care

The other thing I don't get is most of the people arguing against government health care seem to be Christians. What would Jesus do motherfuckers, what would Jesus do? Would Jesus give health care to rich people only or would Jesus try and get everyone decent health care?

PS I'm probably talking from a point of ignorance because I haven't really looked into this issue.
Click to expand...
I agree with you, and it's vexing to millions of Americans, but I can give you a simple explanation:

Health care in the UK is mostly that: care for the sick. In the US, it is largely a commodity, and delivered by profit-making corporations such as insurance companies and pharmaceuticals. The delivery of health care is only besides the point when they're really trying to deliver a profit. This creates a system where they will use everything in their power to maintain the bottom line, pay their shareholders and resist any tinkering with the system.

Ditto the pharmaceutical industry which gets US taxpayer dollars to develop certain drugs, charges a premium to the US taxpayers for those drugs, sells the drugs at a discount to foreign markets because they have to, and lobby maintain their patents beyond the natural expiration date to maximize profits.

This, along with a well paid army of health care industry lobbyists, CEOs paid in the hundreds of millions a year, health care companies giving large contributions to politicians, and you have a dysfunctional system that enriches insurance companies and pharmaceutical companies and progressively prices consumers out of the market.

I expect to get flamed for this post, but I gave a very realistic description of the capitalism of health care and why it isn't working.
 
Isostar13 said:
^^^ Interesting point, however, many cancer drugs aren't even available in the UK because the NHS has deemed them not cost-effective for patients. That's what NICE, the evaluation committee for pharmaceuticals in the UK does on a regular basis. They ask themselves, is it worth having maybe one or two people live and us paying $250k? Nope, ok, then we won't allow that drug to be used here and paid for by the NHS. Good day sir.

To the OP: The reason smart people are against health care reform is not because we're worried that we won't have our own private plans anymore, but because Obama wants to literally redistribute our hard earned money (even more so than it already is) by increasing taxes to pay for healthcare for unproductive members of society. That's socialism at its core.

Here's an extreme view not yet held by me but something that made me think a bit. Why is it that people think they have a 'right' to healthcare? If you look at the evolution of humans, has there ever been a society that progressed fast and well by keeping every single old, sick or weak person around and using all their resources to ensure their comfort and safety? We (humans, as a species) used to do things just like animals. When someone in your herd is too sick to continue, you leave them behind. Why? Because they know that they would be taking up countless resources that diminish the survivability of everyone else. I believe Native Americans also used to do something similar. In some tribes, as elder became sick and weak and could not contribute anymore, they would wander off alone into the woods or up a mountain and let their bodies return to nature.

Now, like I said, this is an extreme way to look a things, but its only extreme because of how soft and unproductive our societies have become. No one cares that not only did humans stop evolving a long ass time ago, but in many ways, we de-volved. No one cares that everything we (humans) touch turns to shit. We kill off ecosystems like its our job. And NOW, we want to make sure everyone lives as long as possible no matter how much a piece of shit they are and we want the most productive individuals in society to be taxed extra to pay for it all.

Here's a short story from Kurt Vonnegut. If you're socialist, you'll love it. If you're a capitalist, it'll make your blood boil.

"Harrison Bergeron" by Kurt Vonnegut
Click to expand...

If you want those drugs in the UK there are still private health insurance companies who will provide them if you have the money, just like in America.

You say 'we would be paying for the health care of unproductive members of society', that's fucked up dude. You're basically saying that anyone who is too poor (for whatever reason) to afford health care is an unproductive member of society, which is complete BS.

I'm as greedy as the next fucker but I honestly don't care if my taxes go on helping other people recover from terminal diseases. I think if you had to personally deny dying people health care you would think twice about this shit.

What's your issue with socialism anyway?
 
xentech said:
I'm as greedy as the next fucker but I honestly don't care if my taxes go on helping other people recover from terminal diseases. I think if you had to personally deny dying people health care you would think twice about this shit.

What's your issue with socialism anyway?
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There are lots of callow people here making a lot of money at a very young age who think they're the shit. According to them, anybody who needs help can suck it in and die because Darwinism is the way of nature.
 
Originally Posted by Isostar13

To the OP: The reason smart people are against health care reform is not because we're worried that we won't have our own private plans anymore, but because Obama wants to literally redistribute our hard earned money (even more so than it already is) by increasing taxes to pay for healthcare for unproductive members of society. That's socialism at its core.
Click to expand...
^We already pay for healthcare for all the unproductive people - people in jail or prison, old people, disabled people, unemployed or under employed people, people on welfare. The people national healthcare will help are the ones who have decent jobs and are working hard but have to pay half of their weekly salary for health insurance.

So is it socialism that my taxes are spent on public schools? I don't have kids. Is education a right?
 
Yes public schools is another example of redistribution of wealth.

Yes I am heartless. Fuck paying more taxes to help heal other people.

Yes, I would tell people to their face, no I'm not paying for your surgery. Fuck you.

I have had medical hardships myself and my parents have as well but we never once relied on anyone else to bail us out. Cancer treatments nearly bankrupt my mom but she made it, on her own.

The reason we can't deliver care to everyone who is a productive member of society and needs it is because our resources are being strained covering all those asshats who show up at the ER with no insurance/nothing and feel they deserve care, even though they know they won't be paying for it.

Even without AM I've worked and paid for healthcare. It's not impossible.
 
Xentech, I agree 100%.

My theory on everything right now is that we U.S. people are acting completely batshit because our media has gone completely batshit. You would not believe how thick the fucking propaganda is over here. It's incredible and it comes from everywhere.

No one knows if the info they get is right or wrong.. so they pick a few sources they think seem right and stick with them. Unfort those sources are usually completely biased too. It's all fucked up.

Also, we have 3 political groups (at least) in this country - liberals, conservatives, and the conspiracy groups.

The conspiracy groups have risen up because of the continual ass raping of the American people by terrorists, shady government, unjustified wars, and certain ruthless corporations. This has mostly happened in the last 9 years.

Also it seems no one profits here from reporting the news to us in a sane way - neither media nor government. It's got to be over-hyped, over-sensational, over-feared, over-emotional. And now we are a nation of complete paranoid batshit fucks.

And now we're all stocking up on guns and ammo for some big orgasmic release of all this rediculousness. Well fuck it. Lets have at it, cunts. It's just a shame the people who deserve the bullets the most wont get them.
 
xentech said:
I just don't get it. I don't live in the USA so maybe I'm not getting the full picture, but WTF is with the debate on health care?
Click to expand...
A bunch of lunatics on either side getting coverage, everyone in the middle getting ignored. That's wtf the debate on health care is.
They use the NHS (UK's Health Service) as an argument for not getting government run health care which I just plainly don't understand.
Click to expand...
That's the crazies.
First of all the NHS really isn't that bad, and from what I've read about private health care in the USA I'd rather take my 'shitty' free health care, but that's
besides the point.
Click to expand...
Right now there's so much propaganda going out that what you(or I) read is pretty much useless.
It pretty much comes down to this: The companies are shady as fuck, but work properly 99% most of the time. There's few people who argue against the need for reform. Most just have an issue with the public option.
The people really raising hell are the people who aren't working and don't have health care. It's not so bad of a system if you actually have it.
Everyone (obviously not everyone) in the USA seems to be acting like this would completely ruin their country and people would be dying all over the place but what they don't seem to grasp is you can still get private fucking health care in the UK if you can afford it.
Click to expand...
But right now it's not a 'can you afford it' here. It's a 'if you have a decent job you already have it and your employer covers it'.
Beyond that, our government is full of idiots. Seriously, think about the past 8-9 years. Those people WILL be in power again someday. And even if they're not, we've already bankrupted every similar attempt we've had (medicare, social security, etc) by borrowing against it. Our politicians have proven over and over again they're not up to it.
And here's what it would be like with government run health care
People with money still have 'good' private health care
Less fortunate people at least get some 'shitty' health care
Click to expand...
That's not how it works here. They want to cover everything. So when the next group of idiots freaks out about SARS, we'll have to vaccinate the whole damn country.
Not to mention right now the argument for smoking/marijuana/drinking often comes down to "It's my body and it doesn't affect you...fuck off". You can't make that argument once the public plan is a reality, because it does affect everyone. So your choices are either deal with the costs(not going to happen in this nanny state), regulate personal decisions(more likely) or lock people who smoke/drink/are obese out of the plan(even though they have to pay for it).
The other thing I don't get is most of the people arguing against government health care seem to be Christians. What would Jesus do motherfuckers, what would Jesus do? Would Jesus give health care to rich people only or would Jesus try and get everyone decent health care?
Click to expand...
No, that's what we refer to as our "vocal dumbasses". They're the ones you see on TV, or hear about on reddit. But they're not the entire base or anything like that.
PS I'm probably talking from a point of ignorance because I haven't really looked into this issue.
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Honestly, if you read around online that's the impression you're going to get. But it's a bunch of fucking idiots on both sides that are getting coverage.
 
xmcp123 said:
A bunch of lunatics on either side getting coverage, everyone in the middle getting ignored. That's wtf the debate on health care is.

That's the crazies.

Right now there's so much propaganda going out that what you(or I) read is pretty much useless.
It pretty much comes down to this: The companies are shady as fuck, but work properly 99% most of the time. There's few people who argue against the need for reform. Most just have an issue with the public option.
The people really raising hell are the people who aren't working and don't have health care. It's not so bad of a system if you actually have it.

But right now it's not a 'can you afford it' here. It's a 'if you have a decent job you already have it and your employer covers it'.
Beyond that, our government is full of idiots. Seriously, think about the past 8-9 years. Those people WILL be in power again someday. And even if they're not, we've already bankrupted every similar attempt we've had (medicare, social security, etc) by borrowing against it. Our politicians have proven over and over again they're not up to it.

That's not how it works here. They want to cover everything. So when the next group of idiots freaks out about SARS, we'll have to vaccinate the whole damn country.
Not to mention right now the argument for smoking/marijuana/drinking often comes down to "It's my body and it doesn't affect you...fuck off". You can't make that argument once the public plan is a reality, because it does affect everyone. So your choices are either deal with the costs(not going to happen in this nanny state), regulate personal decisions(more likely) or lock people who smoke/drink/are obese out of the plan(even though they have to pay for it).

No, that's what we refer to as our "vocal dumbasses". They're the ones you see on TV, or hear about on reddit. But they're not the entire base or anything like that.

Honestly, if you read around online that's the impression you're going to get. But it's a bunch of fucking idiots on both sides that are getting coverage.
Click to expand...

Useful response. That's why I had to say add that I was probably arguing from a point of ignorance because there is clearly so much BS smeared on both sides of the fence.
 
BlueYonder said:
There are lots of callow people here making a lot of money at a very young age who think they're the shit. According to them, anybody who needs help can suck it in and die because Darwinism is the way of nature.
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No, but I think a lot of people here don't want to spend money and get nothing in return.
Want me to support "public plan"?
Give it to anyone whose enrolled fulltime in a university. Cut costs out of the defense budget, and several other stupid 'pet projects', and use it to subsidize the cost of education so higher education is virtually free. Same goes for trade schools(sorry America, not everyone is going to be a doctor)

That way I'm at least getting qualified workers out of it. Plus once someone has the tools to succeed, it's no one's fault but their own if they don't. I'm fine with helping them get access to those tools.
 
Oy. I'm still waking up so I'm taking a lot of political bait this morning. So here it goes:
Majic said:
I used to prefer the private system the US has.

Until I heard that someone that was actually insured could not get any more chemotherapy. Her insurance had a clause and she had survived her cancer too long. Despite the problems of the NHS this would of never happend in the UK.
Click to expand...
Which is why you regulate them. You can easily pass bills with virtually no opposition dealing with things like this.
Given the amount of wealth capitalism has created
Click to expand...
You mean the wealth that has largely disappeared over the last year?
I think healthcare should be one of the things that any modern country should cover.
Click to expand...
Why? We don't have enough doctors. We don't have enough nurses. We don't have enough hospitals. We don't have enough money.
So just because I'm in a 'modern country' I should pay not only for my own health care, but for someone else's, when me doing so will likely result in me not being able to get my own care in a decent time span? Forgive me if I pass.
The US should bite the bullet whatever the cost.
Click to expand...
"Whatever the cost" for the rest of the world is different from "whatever the cost" in the states. We'll spend ourselves into a massive hole if allowed to.
So once again, why replace a system that could be dealt with using a single regulatory bill? Or the government rolling back it's changes?


One thing we should all be clear on here. The United States Government fucked up private health care. With overregulation they've made it so the plans are not exactly mobile, and you have to use providers within your own state. As a result there's many states with only 2 private providers. If they had not done this, we'd have dozens or even hundreds of plans. The dumbasses eliminated anything resembling competition.

Don't make the mistake of assuming our government is competent. Remember Iraq anyone?
Or the medicare/social security?
Or the fact we can't find a fucking 6 foot 2 afghani man dragging a damn dialysis machine through the mountains?

Even if you trust this administration not to be retarded...how much do you trust the unknown one to come after? What if for example(god forbid) Sarah Palin wins? You want her in charge of your health care?
 
Isostar13 said:
The reason we can't deliver care to everyone who is a productive member of society and needs it is because our resources are being strained covering all those asshats who show up at the ER with no insurance/nothing and feel they deserve care, even though they know they won't be paying for it.
Click to expand...
i agree we should deport all illegal immigrants before even considering govt. funded health care.

and as xmcp said above, people will be fucked either way. same shit, different label. politics vs. profit.
 
xentech said:
I just don't get it. I don't live in the USA so maybe I'm not getting the full picture, but WTF is with the debate on health care? They use the NHS (UK's Health Service) as an argument for not getting government run health care which I just plainly don't understand. First of all the NHS really isn't that bad, and from what I've read about private health care in the USA I'd rather take my 'shitty' free health care, but that's
besides the point. Everyone (obviously not everyone) in the USA seems to be acting like this would completely ruin their country and people would be dying all over the place but what they don't seem to grasp is you can still get private fucking health care in the UK if you can afford it.

So here's the situation in the US right now
Only people with money have private health care

And here's what it would be like with government run health care
People with money still have 'good' private health care
Less fortunate people at least get some 'shitty' health care

The other thing I don't get is most of the people arguing against government health care seem to be Christians. What would Jesus do motherfuckers, what would Jesus do? Would Jesus give health care to rich people only or would Jesus try and get everyone decent health care?

PS I'm probably talking from a point of ignorance because I haven't really looked into this issue.
Click to expand...

If you don't live here, why are you opening your mouth? Keep your shitty health system, we don't want it.

Good Lord - what is it with foreigners sharing their unwanted opinions?
 
Also, what about all these health insurance jobs that are going to be lost? Didn't we just spend billions to keep jobs afloat of companies that should have failed, now thousands of jobs at functional, profitable companies will be cut?
 
Ok, so in as brief a statement as I can make this.

(1) Government run health care will put all private health care systems out of place. In a privately run company, you have to turn a profit or you fail, go into bankruptcy, etc. The government will not have to turn a profit. If it isn't working they will dump more money into the program through taxes and wasteful spending.

(2) Why would we want the government to run anything. Let's take a look at the industries they currently run: medicare - broke; Medicaid - broke; United Postal - broke. The government can never run something as well as private industry can. Why? Because they are politicians and are more concerned about being re-elected and pandering to the unions and lobbyists.

(3) Aside from having the government run the health care system into the ground and bankrupting us, politicians are NOT Doctors! Do you want to put your medial health in the hands of someone who hasn't spend 7 years studying to be a doctor and then spent up to an additional 6 training as one through an internship and residency? It will be politicians, not doctors, who are deciding what type of medical care you can receive and whom you can receive it from and just how much you can receive. What gives them the authority to make those decisions? (not that i am in favor of big insurance companies having control over these either... see point 4)

(4) So the big insurance companies and not paying for things or denying coverage for pre-existing medical problems.... it isn't their fault entirely. Through years of medical malpractice suits they've had to save their ass one too many times. So they said "fuck it" not worth the risk if we are just going to be burned in the ass in the end. What really needs to happen here to allievate their control over the industy and our health care is some medical Tort Reform. Doctors now are so in fear of being sued that they are calling for unnecessary tests - essentially practicing defensive medicine - so that someone can't come back and fault them for it. So why aren't we hearing more about this? Because Obama has decided that that should not be part of the health reform policy. Why? Because who do you think got him elected? Prosecutors w/ deep wallets.

(5) So the argument i hear is that we should provide health care for poor, etc. Ok. so Pass the bill. Did you know that in 10 years all those unisured will still not be covered by the system and we will be trillions of dollars in debt? That doesn't seem like an overhaul of our health care system that I want to pay for with my hard earned tax dollars. I'm already paying my taxes to pay for uninsured (and usually illegal immigrant) emergency room visits. Why would I volunteer to pay even more than I already do.

Those are my Top 5 reasons for protesting the health reform bill. I don't see it as privding better coverage to more americans. I see it as sinking our country's debt deeper into the ground.
 
hellblazer said:
If you don't live here, why are you opening your mouth? Keep your shitty health system, we don't want it.

Good Lord - what is it with foreigners sharing their unwanted opinions?
Click to expand...

I want to hear their opinions, Cunt.

Esp since it's fucking relative to the argument on whether socialized medicine works or not. So shut your tuna-smelling rotten cunt mouth.
 
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