Muslims behead a 9-year-old boy



Ar Scion said:
Religion does lead to morality. Objective morality.
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So it teaches that “we are right and everyone that sees it differently is wrong.” That may be comforting but it is a delusion.

Morality is clearly subjective and this is why these conflicts arise. Each side labels themselves as “good” and the opposition as “evil.” We are unable to escape biases due to a lifetime of indoctrination, myself included.

When I see children on either side being taught to be intolerant it’s hard to be optimistic about the future. At some point you need to quit fighting back and realize that “being right” is a fool’s game.
 
sennin436 said:
Excerpt from Evolution of Morality (wiki):
What's often taught in schools when they teach evolution is only about the biological evolution of the species. What's often left out is the concept of MORAL EVOLUTION. Christian evangelicals and fundamentalist often teach that humans are created in the image of God and this gives humans the capacity to understand what's good versus what's evil, what's selfish vs what's altruistic, etc, and everything else not human are just dumb beasts with no concept of good, evil, altruism, etc. Supposedly this huge chasm that separates us from lowly beasts and apes. Well, sorry to burst your bubble. Pretty much any expert primatologist can enlighten you to the fact that all of those concepts exists in primates as well. IT'S ALL THERE - albeit in a slightly primitive form. It 's just another fact that supports evolution/science.

But hey, not saying you need to be a full-fledged atheist to denounce organized religions like Islam, Christianaity, etc. Just a humble agnostic will do lol. Just google 'Spirituality vs Religion'. All kinds of interesting concepts.
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You cannot deduce from altruistic behavior, or any other behavior that these animals have an actual moral code. How about looking at genetics or the environment instead?

But no, we jump to unfounded conclusions (altruistic behavior therefore morality).

Altruistic behaviors are merely behaviors correlates that could arise from genetics or conditioning and are insufficient to demonstrate actual morality. We can say nothing about the ideas or thoughts behind them, let alone establish that there is an actual moral code guiding them.

Heck, even people are capable of engaging in moral behavior without consciously acknowledging that these behaviors have a root in thought, logic and ideas. We acknowledge that this is a result of social conditioning, habituation or genetic predisposition, and we see proof of that- people being dickheads because of divergent social conditioning.

Good science makes appropriate conclusions from the findings. Not bullshit conclusions that appeal to people eager to engage in confirmation bias.
 
lukep said:
In short, I feel that the 2 Billion people on this planet aren't doing enough to stop the extremists hiding within them who go out into the world and kill 1000 other people every single month.

If you still feel that my feeling here is unreasonable, picture the KKK going out and killing 1000 jews every month, IN ISRAEL. -See the difference? Israel wouldn't be so happy with the USA then, now would they?

We stop our loonies. They don't.
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When Muslim MILITANTS do what they want, what can any Muslim that live in a different country do about it? Muslims in Malaysia, China, Brunei, and Japan have been peaceful for a very long time. I agree that there are a lot more ignorant Muslims than there are Christians but you're as responsible to stop Iran from killing it's own people as I am.

I don't understand who you're pointing fingers at. and why?

When Muslims do something you say their efforts don't matter because they denounced Islam?
 
Ar Scion said:
You cannot deduce from altruistic behavior, or any other behavior that these animals have an actual moral code. How about looking at genetics or the environment instead?

But no, we jump to unfounded conclusions (altruistic behavior therefore morality).

Altruistic behaviors are merely behaviors correlates that could arise from genetics or conditioning and are insufficient to demonstrate actual morality. We can say nothing about the ideas or thoughts behind them, let alone establish that there is an actual moral code guiding them.

Heck, even people are capable of engaging in moral behavior without consciously acknowledging that these behaviors have a root in thought, logic and ideas. We acknowledge that this is a result of social conditioning, habituation or genetic predisposition, and we see proof of that- people being dickheads because of divergent social conditioning.

Good science makes appropriate conclusions from the findings. Not bullshit conclusions that appeal to people eager to engage in confirmation bias.
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lol. I think you're just afraid to look at the scientific evidence I mentioned and haven't even bothered to look into any of what was mentioned.

We're social beings. The individual "self" in relation to society (i.e. others). In the case of higher primates they're clearly social animals living in groups/pacts and any selfish behavior like hording all the food, not sharing, etc, is punished and ostracised by the pact/group. Any member acting extremely selfish (i.e. "evil", like stealing food from another ape, acting violent, etc) gets severely punished or "roughed up" by the other apes. Even chased out of the group. But the ape who acts generous with his food, acts kindly to others gets rewarded and is highly esteemed by the others. Once again, study up on primatology and 'evolution of morality'. It's all there.

As for Genetics? You've got to be kidding me, right? lol. There's waaay to much evidence that supports evolution there. Or are you also ignorant of this as well?

Like I said, not saying you need to become a hardcore atheist by any means. (See my previous post). Right now any creator or "God" described in monotheistic religions seems to be acting like an absentee father in hiding at best. But for any religious dogma/belief to be accepted as The Truth, God himself needs to appear to all 6 ~ 7 billion of us face-to-face and establish the religion himself/herself/ etc. Get the facts directly and "hear it directly from the horses mouth" so to speak. Not 3rd hand hearsay from some sort of prophet or spokesperson who simply claims to be the spokesperson for The Truth. That's just not gonna cut it for skeptics who want to see scientific evidence. It doesn't make alot of sense establishing any sort of organized religion where we waste so much of our time, effort, money, etc, based on 3rd hand hearsay & speculation.
 
lukep said:
Fuck no. Got anything harder than that for me? :D
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If you don't believe in objective morality, then you can't possibly explain to me why murder is inherently wrong.

For the record, I'm an atheist.
 
Ar Scion said:
If you're arguing from a position of humanism, then you need to know that humanism is rooted in religious philosophy, and if a purely atheistic worldview was in effect, human life would have no value. Saddam and Stalin would be equally valid approaches to running a country as anything else.
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are you serious brah? you utter nonsense.

"divine permission, given to people who think they have god on their side, enables actions that a morally normal unbeliever would not contemplate...the suicide bomber community is entirely faith-based...slavery is mandated by The Bible. given only faith, mountains can be moved, and millions of people who would never normally acquiesce an evil are brought to it straight away and with ease and with self-righteousness."

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GQcGXBo8HP8]YouTube - Faith-based morality gets Hitchslapped. (Christopher Hitchens)[/ame]
 
Jokerr said:
If you don't believe in objective morality, then you can't possibly explain to me why murder is inherently wrong.
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True dat. It's not "Inherently" wrong.

It's just plain 'ol wrong because it makes for worse conditions around me.

I don't like murder, therefore it's "wrong" for me & my sense of fairness.

If everyone could think like this, there would be no planes slamming into skyscrapers nor Jihad of any kind...
 
I'll just leave this here:

[ame="http://www.amazon.com/Moral-Landscape-Science-Determine-Values/dp/1439171211/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1305553658&sr=8-1"]Amazon.com: The Moral Landscape: How Science Can Determine Human Values (9781439171219): Sam Harris: Books[/ame]

As on the question of "objective morality" - yes and no.

I'll take up some of the points from the book.

"Morality" as such, is a function with several peaks. Where the peaks are optimal points. The definition of this point can be taken as "long term well being of human beings".

So yes, there are objective peaks, but not ONE, but several.

We can liken this to food (only as a metaphor). While eating chocolate cake might be construed as "nanana, there is a peak in well being, but it is bad for you", it is no long-term peak for the individuum concerned. That said, various nutritional concepts might form true peaks in this "food landscape".

So, as for morality, we can look at things such as religion or atheism, science and technology and actually derive some kind of value for them.

Funny now, that the peaks in the moral landscape need no other justification, such as religion, to verify them.

Do not kill - Long term well being of all human beings.
Do not lie, do not cheat, do not torture, do not rape, do not put people into slavery, etc... I do not need your invisible sky unicorn to make me behave well.

::emp::
 
Watch Dylan Ratigan's rant on MSNBC:
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sv74YD05LaI"]YouTube - Dylan Ratigan's epic "Morning Joe" rant[/ame]

99.9% of "Muslim" terrorists are Wahhabi (Osama bin Laden, Al Qaeda, 99% of extremist groups, Taliban which is a wahhabi influenced deobandi group). Before pointing fingers guys, do a little research and read about their spread across the muslim world and Saudi/US/UK relations. It might come as a shock to many that quite a few muslims (both shia and sunni) don't consider Wahhabi's to be muslim (even from a simply jurisprudential standpoint) but of course I'm sure people will keep believing what they've been fed by the Media. The bigger question is why has the west been supporting these lunatics (including secular yet brutal Arab dictators) for so many decades and keep a blind eye to their actions when it suits them? If they were so "ISLAMIC" why do they destroy the graves and tombs of the Prophets companions and family members and kill and steal from other muslims *gasp*.

Calling wahhabi cult terrorism "Islamic" is like saying all Christians are rapists and mass murderers for the action of the LRA cult in Uganda. In fact how many of you even know about Islam? Most of these Taliban/Wahhabi types even deal drugs, commit armed robberies and kidnappings, rape and every criminal thing under the sun when it suits them (things which are explicitly forbidden and punishable under Islamic law). Have any of you who hate muslims even bothered going to muslim countries or reading about Islam? Just tell them you're American and see how they treat you, you'll be shocked! It would also probably come as a shock that the 4th Islamic Caliph and first Shia Imam Ali Ibn Abu Talib used to repair Churches with his own hands during his rule and the the Prophet Mohammad would allow christians and jews to worship in muslim mosques.

I mean damn, these sure sound like hateful people:

Following the Words of God, the Prophet of Islam (saww) has emphasized on the issue of religious coexistence with the followers of different divine religions. The following are some examples of the Prophetic treatment with them.
1. “Whoever annoys a Dhimmii ( a Jew or Christian living in an Islamic state) then I am his enemy and whoever I am his enemy I will be his enemy in hereafter.”
2. “Whoever Muslim launches a charge against a chaste Dhimmi he will be punished in the Hereafter with a lash of fire.”
3. “Whoever Muslim acts unjustly with a confederate or diminishes his right or over burden him or takes away something from him out of his desire, then I will be his enemy in the Hereafter.”
4. Imam Ali (p), the Caliph of Muslims after the Prophet, in his Document of Instruction written to his Governor in Egypt where around 15 million Christians were living, writes: “… Accustom your heart to mercy for the subjects, and to affection and kindness for them. Do not stand over them like a greedy beast who feels it is enough to devour them, since they are of two kinds, either your brother in religion or one like you in creation.”[6]

Historical Cases

1. The Time of Prophet Muhammad (saww)
1/1: The Treaty of Sinai: In the year 2 A.H. the Prophet of Islam signed a treaty with the Christians of Sinai Land which was written by Imam Ali (a). A part of that treaty reads: “ I (Prophet Mohammad) promise that I will not change their priests and monks nor do I expel them from their worshipping places. I do not prohibit their pilgrims from their travels, nor do I destroy their churches. I do not convert any churches to mosques and whichever Muslim does so has violated God’s covenant… Muslims should not force them to anything. They must be kind to them and respect them all… Should their churches require any repair, Muslims should help them as much as they can and they should allow Christians practice their rituals…”[7]
1/2 : The Treaty of Najran: Najran was a village in the border of Yemen. The following treaty was signed between the Prophet and the Christians of Najran in the year 9 A.H. in a situation that Muslims with no doubt had an upper hand over the Christians, and yet the Prophet did not take advantage of their miserable situation.
A part of the treaty reads: “No priest or monk should be expelled from his church or its surroundings. No Muslim has the right to humiliate them. Our army shall not occupy their lands…”[8]
It is interesting to note that according to the authority of Halabi when the delegate of the Christians of Najran came to Madina to negotiate the treaty it was the time of their prayer. They asked the Prophet of Islam if they could pray beforehand. The Prophet gave them the permission to pray in the Mosque, where they all prayed facing the east.[9]

Despite the sabotage and the mischief that many of the People of the Book were engaged in against Muslims in the beginning of Islam, the Prophet of Islam never deprived them of his blessing and merciful attitude. He attended their parties; escorted their dead; visited their sick, and borrowed from them and loaned to them. The Following story is an example of many:
1/3: Respecting a dead Jew: It is quoted from the authority of Jabir Ibn Abdullah that: “A Jewish funeral was passing where the Prophet and we were sitting. The Prophet in respect of the dead body stood up. We surprisingly asked: ‘O Messenger of Allah! Isn’t he a Jew?!’ The Prophet replied: ‘Was he not a soul?!’”[10]

2. After Prophet Mohammad
2/1: People of the Book are included in Social Security:
As it mentioned in Islamic Jurisprudence, it is the duty of the Islamic State to cover the basic expenditure of retired citizens irrespective of their culture and faith. Muslim jurists from the first century of Islam have opened a particular chapter in which they have approved that non-Muslims should enjoy equal right for Social Security. Also, it is the duty of the State to cover their basic expenditures from the Public Treasury if they are old or unable to work. The following story is one of their proofs:
Imam Ali (p) was passing by a road. He saw an old beggar asking people for help. He asked his companions who the man was? “He is a Christian”, replied the companions. Imam Ali while he looking upset said: ‘You used him as much as he could work for you, and now that he is old and unable, you have left him behind! Make sure you provide him a reasonable life from the treasury.’[11]

2/3: Don’t Forget Your Neighbour:
One of the servants of Ibn Abbas, the companion of the Prophet, narrates: “One day we slaughtered a sheep at home. Ibn Abbas told me to leave a share for our neighbor who happened to be a Jew. He repeated his statement several times until I asked him why he was so much concerned about that Jewish neighbour. He replied: The Prophet of Islam advised us so much about our neighbours that I’m afraid he may have a share in my inheritance.”
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This including the various discussions that used to be held with athiests and *shock* the atheists would not be killed nor oppressed for not converting. :uhoh2:

If you guys want to attack Islam, give me reasons why Islam is so evil WITHOUT going to biased non-muslim or wahhabi sources or the actions of extremists who go against 90% of mainstream Islamic teachings. Good luck...

BTW How do some of you feel about this innocent farm boy who was killed and had his fingers cut off as a trophy by Soldiers in Afghanistan?:

The Kill Team Photos: | Rolling Stone Politics | Photos
 
sennin436 said:
lol. I think you're just afraid to look at the scientific evidence I mentioned and haven't even bothered to look into any of what was mentioned.

We're social beings. The individual "self" in relation to society (i.e. others). In the case of higher primates they're clearly social animals living in groups/pacts and any selfish behavior like hording all the food, not sharing, etc, is punished and ostracised by the pact/group. Any member acting extremely selfish (i.e. "evil", like stealing food from another ape, acting violent, etc) gets severely punished or "roughed up" by the other apes. Even chased out of the group. But the ape who acts generous with his food, acts kindly to others gets rewarded and is highly esteemed by the others. Once again, study up on primatology and 'evolution of morality'. It's all there.

As for Genetics? You've got to be kidding me, right? lol. There's waaay to much evidence that supports evolution there. Or are you also ignorant of this as well?

Like I said, not saying you need to become a hardcore atheist by any means. (See my previous post). Right now any creator or "God" described in monotheistic religions seems to be acting like an absentee father in hiding at best. But for any religious dogma/belief to be accepted as The Truth, God himself needs to appear to all 6 ~ 7 billion of us face-to-face and establish the religion himself/herself/ etc. Get the facts directly and "hear it directly from the horses mouth" so to speak. Not 3rd hand hearsay from some sort of prophet or spokesperson who simply claims to be the spokesperson for The Truth. That's just not gonna cut it for skeptics who want to see scientific evidence. It doesn't make alot of sense establishing any sort of organized religion where we waste so much of our time, effort, money, etc, based on 3rd hand hearsay & speculation.
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You're still confusing behavior with morality.

You need to be able to think independently of the dogma and question what you know. You can't do all this with blind faith in your primatologists.

If you're serious, ask yourself on what basis an ape's behavior is considered selfish, and whether an ape sees it this way. If you reach this point of thinking, you'll go "WTF I don't know if apes see that act as selfish or not, I'm just interpreting behavior as if it's a person doing it."

That's when you know you're thinking for yourself and not succumbing to primatology-worship.
 
sraza said:
99.9% of "Muslim" terrorists are Wahhabi (Osama bin Laden, Al Qaeda, 99% of extremist groups, Taliban which is a wahhabi influenced deobandi group). Before pointing fingers guys, do a little research and read about their spread across the muslim world and Saudi/US/UK relations...
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Cool Starry, Bra.

Once you catch up to this conversation you'll probably see that we all know that there are lots of different factions and denominations of Islam... Certainly of Muslims in general.

The whole argument was started however with the fact that some of us prefer to play it safe and NOT sit by someone who looks like he could be a dangerous Islamic extremest, and yes, we realize that that pretty much includes all Muslims as a whole.

It's just safer that way... Go ahead and try to deny it.
 
sraza said:
If you guys want to attack Islam, give me reasons why Islam is so evil WITHOUT going to biased non-muslim or wahhabi sources or the actions of extremists who go against 90% of mainstream Islamic teachings. Good luck...

BTW How do some of you feel about this innocent farm boy who was killed and had his fingers cut off as a trophy by Soldiers in Afghanistan?:

The Kill Team Photos: | Rolling Stone Politics | Photos
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Sure, just examine the biography of Muhammad the prophet.
Read the Quran.
Look at how Women are treated in Islamic countries.

If that's not evil I don't know what is.

and saying another religion is worse to justify Islam is just dumb.

Objectively Islam is fucked from the root, please at least have the guts to admit this.
When you fight the absolute truth you dwell with the realm of hypocrisy.

It's OK to leave Islam.
 
1. Hitler Killed 6 Crore People including World War II


2. Joseph Stalin Killed 1 Crore 45 Lacs.


3. Mao si sung Killed 1 Crore 40 Lacs.


4. Maximum Robistiere Killed 40 Lacs.


.. & Countless Other Serial Killers


They all were Non-Muslims.


Then how could they say that Muslims are Terrorists or Extremists.


History Proved that Non-Muslims are the Biggest Killers of Humanity.
Then Why they often say that Muslims are Fundamentatlists, Extremists or Terrorists?

If you people are counting only few dozens who have killed several hundreds then you all are blaming the rest 2 billion ++ Muslims!

.. and you all should be punished too.

PEACE \/ || wish we better understand the conspiracy of this World, Nothing Is FOREVER, time changes and it keeps changing. try reducing it without blaming one another.
 
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