Mars Mission: $2.5 billion - Worth It Given Alternatives?

[wayn3]

Being audited by the IRS is not 'violence', being arrested for not paying taxes is not violence

So what if luke and I came up to your house one day to audit you, and if you didnt let us in, we came back half an hour later with a couple private security? Its an aggressive act that couldnt give less of a shit about your property rights and freedom. And that being performed by "authorities" makes it way worse, not more justifiable. Theres no good in "but everyone gets treated like that". Every roman colony got treated the same. Were they well off?

going to jail is not violence.

Taking a mans freedom is as violent as they come. Second only to taking his life.

There is no threat of violence

There is no threat of violence in the sense that theres not just a threat of violence - theyre very willing to follow through on that threat.

The violence in jail is perpetrated by other humans.

That, however, is a funny one. When you get thrown in an overcrowded hole with lots of other people who did nothing wrong and a couple sadistic overseers who got the job for all the wrong reasons, then its obviously those peoples fault - instead of, maybe, the governments who corrupted them to that point.

 

[shindig]

So without any unifying authority over the country when I dump barrels of toxic shit in your backyard instead of paying expensive hazmat disposal, then cruise back to my territory, what are you gonna do about it? Come to my territory where I'm friends with my local authority? Start gangster style wars?

And how is big business going to get your plastic consumer products from china to you when they're too busy negotiating with villagers over every segment of the highway those villagers insist on being paid for maintaining? I've been to mexico and they block the road and demand "donations". Then scurry off into the hills where that towns' cops don't have jurisdiction.

How does cross jurisdiction work? Who manages it? How do you keep track of criminals, or you have to negotiate a fee for some 3rd party service that tracks criminal activity? Collect your own bounties for injustices or hire someone? But then again you'd be stepping on someones toes when you go into their territory to collect the bounty, probably have to buy more people off.

Organized crime would go down in that environment?

Honestly curious to understand where you guys are coming from, having traveled through central america in a ford F-250 with a Grandby camper on it.


Defense? Protection from Israel(you know they want the US)? Other threats. National crime fighting goes how?

 

[johnmatrix]

So what if luke and I came up to your house one day to audit you, and if you didnt let us in, we came back half an hour later with a couple private security? Its an aggressive act that couldnt give less of a shit about your property rights and freedom.

Oh are you saying your right to bear arms is useless against the government? what a surprise. You all went on about how guns are necessary to protect the people from the government in that other thread.

Taking a mans freedom is as violent as they come. Second only to taking his life.

So if I go around raping women, society wont threaten me with violence? Where is my freedom to rape without the threat of violence?

That, however, is a funny one. When you get thrown in an overcrowded hole with lots of other people who did nothing wrong and a couple sadistic overseers who got the job for all the wrong reasons, then its obviously those peoples fault - instead of, maybe, the governments who corrupted them to that point.

No, THAT'S funny. Everyone in jail did nothing wrong? Funny how the overseers you speak of are private companies in it for a profit, not the government.

You are 100% wrong. If you resist any of these things, which are immoral, you will be shot. It is all backed by violence, otherwise there would be no incentive for people to be obedient to the system.

Again, if I go around raping women, are you saying I should not be immorally threatened with violence? Where's my incentive not to rape?

 

[lukep]

Oh boy, here we go again...

So without any unifying authority over the country when I dump barrels of toxic shit in your backyard instead of paying expensive hazmat disposal, then cruise back to my territory, what are you gonna do about it? Come to my territory where I'm friends with my local authority? Start gangster style wars?

If there is evidence leading to a legal complaint, clearly using the courts is the way to go. (Yes, courts are already privatized.) If there is no evidence, i'd probably let my insurance take care of you... They have their own tough guys on staff and will do whatever they feel is more profitable to rectify the situation. (Including dumping you with the waste if they feel you'll do it again.) The threat of this reality being true would more than likely prevent you from doing such bad shit.

And how is big business going to get your plastic consumer products from china to you when they're too busy negotiating with villagers over every segment of the highway those villagers insist on being paid for maintaining? I've been to mexico and they block the road and demand "donations". Then scurry off into the hills where that towns' cops don't have jurisdiction.

That is clearly a problem created BY governments, not a lack of them.

How does cross jurisdiction work? Who manages it? How do you keep track of criminals, or you have to negotiate a fee for some 3rd party service that tracks criminal activity? Collect your own bounties for injustices or hire someone? But then again you'd be stepping on someones toes when you go into their territory to collect the bounty, probably have to buy more people off.

I'm not sure there would be any jurisdictions... This answer would depend on many factors.

Organized crime would go down in that environment?

We have the largest organized crime in human history now called the government. Of COURSE it would go down!

Honestly curious to understand where you guys are coming from, having traveled through central america in a ford F-250 with a Grandby camper on it.

I fail to see how "travelling through central america in a ford F-250 with a Grandby camper on it" is relevant to anarchy. Do you feel that you travelled through anarchic societies somehow? Did the governments there fall when I wasn't paying attention?

Defense? Protection from Israel? National crime fighting? How?

If there is no Nation there wouldn't likely be a national defense, so the premise of a voluntary society would likely need other governments to go away too... This is easily the weakest link in the case for such societies... But again, humans are inventive and have overcome larger obstacles.

"National crime fighting" is not a phrase I'm familiar with... Do you mean like the FBI? It would likely be a couple of competing private agencies doing the same job.

 

[shindig]

If there is evidence leading to a legal complaint, clearly using the courts is the way to go. (Yes, courts are already privatized.) If there is no evidence, i'd probably let my insurance take care of you... They have their own tough guys on staff and will do whatever they feel is more profitable to rectify the situation. (Including dumping you with the waste if they feel you'll do it again.) The threat of this reality being true would more than likely prevent you from doing such bad shit.

Clearly you've never dealt with insurance companies for a claim. They fuck so many people right now, no reason for them to pay out when they can get away with it, or you're going to take them to court, fund your claim with a lawyer and when they don't pay you, who is the court going to ask to enforce the ruling???? You're going to pay for their private thugs in addition to your lawyer fees?

It doesn't have to be toxic chemicals, it could just be me(and others) taking shit when they can get away with it. People already get away with tons of shit, people have warrants across the country, and eventually they can help put that person in jail, various states communicate in some cases. I just see crime expanding when people don't have to worry about some unified authority coming across state lines or whatever it plays out to be. Look at al capone, fucker went down for taxes, not all the crime he did, he'd likely not have been "brought to justice" in your system.

I fail to see how "travelling through central america in a ford F-250 with a Grandby camper on it" is relevant to anarchy. Do you feel that you travelled through anarchic societies somehow? Did the governments there fall when I wasn't paying attention?

latino.foxnews.com/latino/news/2012/06/14/mexican-police-involved-in-kidnapping-caught-on-tape/#ixzz1xoVF00UB <-Cops working for armed thugs, taking orders from them to kidnap people.

Mexico is probably the closest gov to what you're describing. There is no exact implementation of your idea because you guy's haven't defined much of it, just the no gov part. They have: lower taxes, limited government, limited authority over it's police, schools for those who can pay, health services for those who can pay, criminal cops, etc

"National crime fighting" is not a phrase I'm familiar with... Do you mean like the FBI? It would likely be a couple of competing private agencies doing the same job.

Sure FBI, US Marshals, Secret Service(do more than protect politicians), Customs, Forensic facilities, Border patrol. Or anyone can come here then?

Who would pay your private version of the US marshal or FBI, which is currently paid by stolen tax money?

There would be no patents, copyright or enforcement so how would industries operate with their R&D constantly ripped off?

 

[johnmatrix]

If there is evidence leading to a legal complaint, clearly using the courts is the way to go. (Yes, courts are already privatized.) If there is no evidence, i'd probably let my insurance take care of you... They have their own tough guys on staff and will do whatever they feel is more profitable to rectify the situation. (Including dumping you with the waste if they feel you'll do it again.) The threat of this reality being true would more than likely prevent you from doing such bad shit.

Wow are you saying I'd have to worry about insurance companies threatening me with violence? give me the government over that any day. An anarchist society built on the threat of violence to stop me doing bad shit, it's no different to how it is today except the insurance companies wouldn't be accountable to ANYONE.

You all contradict each other so much it's hilarious.

 

[lukep]

Clearly you've never dealt with insurance companies for a claim.

Bad assumption.

They fuck so many people right now, no reason for them to pay out when they can get away with it,

Hmm, and who's fault is it that they can "get away with it?" Certainly not the free market. (Here's a hint: It starts with a 'G'.)

...who is the court going to ask to enforce the ruling???? You're going to pay for their private thugs in addition to your lawyer fees?

Yes. Of course in a free market that wouldn't likely be as expensive as you imagine. Stop thinking that anything could be at our current pricing structure because our pricing structure for pretty much everything today is maintained by government regulation of some kind.

It doesn't have to be toxic chemicals, it could just be me(and others) taking shit when I can get away with it. People already get away with tons of shit, people have warrants across the country, and eventually they can help put that person in jail, various states communicate in some cases. I just see crime expanding when people don't have to worry about some unified authority coming across state lines or whatever it plays out to be.

If you were looking to take a shit on some stranger's property who is likely armed, you've got bigger problems to worry about.

Look at al capone, fucker went down for taxes, not all the crime he did, he'd likely not have been "brought to justice" in your system.

1. Capone was exactly one step down from being a government himself.

2. It's the incompetence of the beauraucratic government that made it so he could go as far as he did.

3. Look at the history of the Pinkerton security agency. Now imagine a large number of those in a free-market competition with each other, each trying to stop that "vile gangster" for some client that he stole from.

One of those agencies would have gotten him 1000x faster than the feds did.

As soon as Capone became the least bit famous, such firms wouldn't even need a client to go after capone! They'd do the work on their own for promotional reasons.

latino.foxnews.com/latino/news/2012/06/14/mexican-police-involved-in-kidnapping-caught-on-tape/#ixzz1xoVF00UB <-Cops working for armed thugs, taking orders from them to kidnap people.

Mexico is probably the closest gov to what you're describing. There is no exact implementation of your idea because you guy's haven't defined much of it, just the no gov part. They have: lower taxes, limited government, limited authority over it's police, schools for those who can pay, health services for those who can pay, criminal cops, etc

LOLOLOL!

Oh I try... I do try to keep my cool, but this kind of stuff makes me just lose it...

Mexico is pretty much the opposite of what I'm talking about. Please go research Voluntaryism, it's clearly not what you think it is. Clearly the gangs in mexico could not be so bad without the mexican government giving them so much power.

Sure FBI, US Marshals, Customs, Border patrol. Or anyone can come here then?

Who would pay your private version of the US marshal or FBI, which is currently paid by stolen tax money?

The wronged. Those would be large private security firms like the Pinkertons.

There would be no patents, copyright or enforcement so how would industries operate?

Oh I do hope so! Patents are one of the most insidious of human inventions.

Industries could operate like they did before patents. That would be awesome.

 

[lukep]

Wow are you saying I'd have to worry about insurance companies threatening me with violence? give me the government over that any day.

Wait a minute, back up the truck... Do you realize that would assume you want to initiate violence against others?

That makes you a really shitty person. The kind of person we should all hope our insurance companies do away with.

An anarchist society built on the threat of violence to stop me doing bad shit, it's no different to how it is today except the insurance companies wouldn't be accountable to ANYONE.

You all contradict each other so much it's hilarious.

There is no contradiction here. It's all about the initiation of violence. Neither I nor my insurance company would be initiating it... Clearly the one doing the harm did.

We advocate carrying guns. Do you think we do that for the sake of contradicting ourselves?

And they certainly would be accountable to the courts and the free market... Both of which have a better chance of bringing forth fairness than what we've got now.

 

[VonRohn]

Oh I do hope so! Patents are one of the most insidious of human inventions.

Industries could operate like they did before patents. That would be awesome.

Yep, industries were booming until the 1600's, then those pesty patent laws became mainstream and ruined everything...

 

[lukep]

Yep, industries were booming until the 1600's, then those pesty patent laws became mainstream and ruined everything...

Agreed.

I do of course see that the titans of industry like microsoft and Nike today wouldn't have nearly the same biz model they do, but It matters not.

With the government out of the way, services have to compete on a free market and would be giving us BETTER PRODUCTS AND SERVICE than they can get away with using patents. That's called innovation. Free markets do that, not patents.

Sure, making bazillions isn't as easy for them as it was anymore. Wahhh. They'll just have to keep innovating if they want to be 'the best.'

 

[wayn3]

Oh are you saying your right to bear arms is useless against the government? what a surprise. You all went on about how guns are necessary to protect the people from the government in that other thread.

This might, somehow, be a rebuttal to my statement that makes sense in your perception of the world, but in mine, it doesnt.

So if I go around raping women, society wont threaten me with violence? Where is my freedom to rape without the threat of violence?

Again. And if you go around raping women, everyone will threaten you with violence. That some government assumes the right to judge over you is, in this case, working for you.

But if there really was no threat of violence, you WOULD be free to rape, so whats your question?

No, THAT'S funny. Everyone in jail did nothing wrong? Funny how the overseers you speak of are private companies in it for a profit, not the government.

That there are private companies contracted by government isnt much different from the government doing the job on its own. But i get that when guys like you hear "in it for the PROFIT", theres some switch flipped that makes you forget all reason.

Again, if I go around raping women, are you saying I should not be immorally threatened with violence? Where's my incentive not to rape?

Can you get off "raping"s cock? What the fuck is the deal with this shit? Do you somehow compare raping a woman to not paying taxes? Am I the moral equivalent of a rapist because I dont pay my taxes? Why are you so fixated on raping a woman instead of maybe a man? Is rape some kind of sexual fantasy for you? There are prostitutes who handle that kind of business, but prostitution is off limits in america, so maybe just continue paying your taxes. Feel sorry for you.

Or you just want to play the rape card because everyone goes nuts over this all the time. In that case, you should go the childporn route, because that works better with these guys.

 

[johnmatrix]

Wait a minute, back up the truck... Do you realize that would assume you want to initiate violence against others?

That makes you a really shitty person. The kind of person we should all hope our insurance companies do away with.

Who said anything about initiating violence? if I want to dump toxic chemicals why shouldn't I? There's no EPA, there's no laws against dumping toxic chemicals. I didn't intend to hurt anybody, it's not my fault some kids with shit parents played in it. It's a free society right? What am I doing wrong? yet you're suggesting your insurance company would knock me off for doing it because it's cheaper!

No matter anyway, my private security force will fight the insurance company's private goons to the death since they have no more power over me than anybody else.

You fucked up big time on this one.

Again. And if you go around raping women, everyone will threaten you with violence. That some government assumes the right to judge over you is, in this case, working for you.

So what? I'm armed to the teeth and I have private security. Come at me bro. I'll keep doing what I want because nobody has any authoritarian power over me. Especially with all my money, I can buy the biggest guns.

But if there really was no threat of violence, you WOULD be free to rape, so whats your question?

That is my point, you're complaining about the government threatening people with violence, yet your anarchist society does exactly the same thing, just with no accountability.

Or you just want to play the rape card because everyone goes nuts over this all the time.

Dreamache brought it up, not me.

 

[Pseudo Nym]

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MhZbX05YFGw]Why Libertarianism Is Wrong - YouTube[/ame]

 

[wayn3]

That is my point, you're complaining about the government threatening people with violence, yet your anarchist society does exactly the same thing, just with no accountability.

Your point is that you compare taxes to rape, the latter being a violent act against my loved ones. Ill have my personal vendetta regardless of whether theres some form of government that sanctions that kind of actions.

 

[Kiopa_Matt]

3. Look at the history of the Pinkerton security agency. Now imagine a large number of those in a free-market competition with each other, each trying to stop that "vile gangster" for some client that he stole from.

One of those agencies would have gotten him 1000x faster than the feds did.

Ohhh, kick ass. So hitmen are legal, and you don't have to worry about that pesky evidence and trial stuff anymore. That actually does sound quite efficient! Instead of businesses busting ass to provide better value than the competition, they can just put a hit out on the competition. Much easier!

Clearly the gangs in mexico could not be so bad without the mexican government giving them so much power.

Huh? Wait... what??? So if the Mexico govt and police force didn't exist, there wouldn't be any drug gangs in Mexico, fighting over various areas (ie. markets of consumers)? You can't possibly believe that.

The wronged. Those would be large private security firms like the Pinkertons.

And when 100,000 foreign, blood thirsty soldiers show up, and murder everyone at Pinkertons? Then what happens? Oh right, you get to live under a dictatorship! Fun, fun, fun... Sorry, but when the foreign military force shows up, I don't think they'll buy the, "sorry, we're anarchists and don't believe in violence" line.

 

[Moxie]

Fuck you Moxie

Mexico is probably the closest gov to what you're describing.

List of freedom indices - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[learningcurve]

Hmm, glad I didn't invest too much time in reading all of this thread since it no longer has much to do with the original question.

Mars Mission: $2.5 billion - Worth It Given Alternatives?

 

[lukash]

Do you support the wars in Iraq, Afghanistan, soon to be Iran and, let's not forget, the war on drugs?

It's business, US gain profit from these wars so they can afford such a missions

 

[hehejo]

And when 100,000 foreign, blood thirsty soldiers show up, and murder everyone at Pinkertons? Then what happens? Oh right, you get to live under a dictatorship! Fun, fun, fun... Sorry, but when the foreign military force shows up, I don't think they'll buy the, "sorry, we're anarchists and don't believe in violence" line.

Guerrilla warfare.

 

[MyOwnDemon]

Look at the history of the Pinkerton security agency.

These government funded, private security companies are scary indeed.

Do some research on Wackenhut. It's a heavily armed security agency hired by the US government to patrol and secure bases such as Area 51.

These guys won't ask questions or nicely ask you to leave if you accidently get too close to whatever they're guarding. They will KILL you. They do not play around.