re:Link Breakage and Networks

[windjc]

If you're paranoid and constantly looking for someone to screw you, you wont focus on your business and lose much more in lost opportunity. This is the point i was trying to get across. Either the offers work or don't, if a few leads dont get counted but youre making boatloads why focus on the pennies, when you can work on collecting thousands more in new offers

Dont get me wrong this is not to be confused with when a network or an advertiser decides to start scrubbing mid campaign. they should just boot you off the offer or lower the payout, not indiscriminately scrub

Whoa, Mike. Hold on a sec. First, please dont throw around the word paranoid. I am NOT paranoid. Not even close.

But your answer doesn't really deny any of this. In fact, you confirm it. You say "Yeh, sorry guys, we just dont bother with about 4% of your leads. Deal with it." Then you mention that systems have built in scrubbers.

LOL!

I just mentioned how someone doing moderate volume on one offer could lose $100ks a year in actual profits and you tell me to stop worrying and just build more campaigns?

Fuck that. I'll build campaigns when I feel like it (which is pretty much all the time, btw) but I dont need a network telling me how to run my business. I need a network to pay me for my leads.

 

[windjc]

Example: Offer A has a $35 pay out. Offer A has a 3000/day lead cap.

Offer A has 4% lost leads = 120 leads. 120 x 35 = $4200/day. $4200 x 30 days = $126,000 a month.

Now lets say that there is 100 other offers on the network. No, lets say 50. No, lets say TWENTY-FIVE. 25 x 120k = $3 million/month in lost leads.

Now, in my experience with a network adding back in leads daily is that this is greater than 4%. But lets just take your stats at face value.

And your network doesnt have 25 offers generating 3000 leads a day. I know. But you do have more than 25 offers. But, anyway, I'm trying to make a point.

 

[miketpowell]

You guys over complicate so much, yes he said they don't care but he also said "it's built into the payout". The bottom line is when you run an offer split test it between whatever networks you know will pay you and see where you get the highest EPC, then negotiate and get it even higher. What more do you want to do?

Maybe whatever network that you get the highest EPC is still taking a hefty cut and guess what you can do about it? Jack shit. They are giving you the most money out of all the networks and that's the best you can do. If you believe networks take to much of a cut go direct with the advertiser or sell your own shit. Or start up a network and start competing if you believe they have to high of profits.

For me I don't see running a network as an easy cash cow. I'm just starting to do some volume and can already see most of the big trustable networks we like will cut there margins down pretty low to keep business.

 

[mkrongel]

Whoa, Mike. Hold on a sec. First, please dont throw around the word paranoid. I am NOT paranoid. Not even close.

But your answer doesn't really deny any of this. In fact, you confirm it. You say "Yeh, sorry guys, we just dont bother with about 4% of your leads. Deal with it." Then you mention that systems have built in scrubbers.

LOL!

I just mentioned how someone doing moderate volume on one offer could lose $100ks a year in actual profits and you tell me to stop worrying and just build more campaigns?

Fuck that. I'll build campaigns when I feel like it (which is pretty much all the time, btw) but I dont need a network telling me how to run my business. I need a network to pay me for my leads.

The point is you're focused on something that has a reverse effect as well. You want the 4%, but what you don't realize is clients don't pay for all of your leads so that 4% is negated out when you don't get leads charged back, how many test leads do you get paid for? Think the advertiser doesn't scrub them out when we finalize billing?

What about not paying you if we don't get paid? That 4% is used to offset those situations. We don't nit pick, we run a business that from an overall standpoint, if you feel a network isn't being fair you shouldn't work with them. My point is everything has an effect and with us at least that percentage is built in to our overall business.

And to clear the confusion most networks take a 10% margin thats it. 10% to cover employees, support, technology, an office and to cover losses when advertisers skip out on bills.

Also some offers undertrack but affiliates dont see that since the over tracking of some makes up for the under tracking of others.

 

[Xrproto]

Whoa, Mike. Hold on a sec. First, please dont throw around the word paranoid. I am NOT paranoid. Not even close..

He was responding to me and yes it all comes off as paranoia.

 

[geofferson]

As it's been pointed out, breakage (untracked leads or "bleads" as one of my affs calls them) happens regularly with cookie-based technology. 4-5% is a normal discrepancy from the data I've seen (we don't use DT, but our own hand rolled tracking technology) and our philosophy has always been to give these leads back to affiliates when we can. Part of the challenge is that some advertisers are more cooperative than others when sharing this data to networks. We've been able to convince our biggest partners to pay us off their database #'s (as opposed to the lower number, that being the tracked amount on our side). We SUBID normal breakge as BONUSDATERANGE and for tech issues like downtime bonuses we use a SUBID like LADATERANGE (Lead Adjustment).

Bottom line: Affs deserve to be paid for every single valid lead you generate and networks should do everything they can on this.

 

[windjc]

He was responding to me and yes it all comes off as paranoia.

It is one thing for us to have threads on here where people are talking about how conversions fluctuate on a day to day basis and how this must mean "scrubbing" and how this advertiser does that and that advertiser does this.

It is an entirely different thing to ask a basic question. If all networks get breakage and all networks dont talk about it openingly and all networks keep the money, then affiliates are getting screwed. OR at LEAST there is not 100% transparency.

And thats where we are going. Don't you see? Sooner or later there is going to be 100% transparency for affiliates who are in the know. Now that networks likes C2M and Ad4Dough have been created "by affiliates" and marketed as "for affiliates", there can't be secrets.

I really appreciate Mike and Geoffersons responses (even if I dont fully agree with Mike on this) but I am surprised that Smaxor and Ruck havent at least said something about this.

This has not been openingly addressed in ANY thread I have read in the last six months. There has been tons of threads about advertiser/network "scrubbing", but not about industry wide link breakage.

 

[Unarmed Gunman]

It is one thing for us to have threads on here where people are talking about how conversions fluctuate on a day to day basis and how this must mean "scrubbing" and how this advertiser does that and that advertiser does this.

It is an entirely different thing to ask a basic question. If all networks get breakage and all networks dont talk about it openingly and all networks keep the money, then affiliates are getting screwed. OR at LEAST there is not 100% transparency.

And thats where we are going. Don't you see? Sooner or later there is going to be 100% transparency for affiliates who are in the know. Now that networks likes C2M and Ad4Dough have been created "by affiliates" and marketed as "for affiliates", there can't be secrets.

I really appreciate Mike and Geoffersons responses (even if I dont fully agree with Mike on this) but I am surprised that Smaxor and Ruck havent at least said something about this.

This has not been openingly addressed in ANY thread I have read in the last six months. There has been tons of threads about advertiser/network "scrubbing", but not about industry wide link breakage.

Smaxor and Ruck probably haven't responded because Geofferson and Krongel have pretty much covered it. Those 4 networks have the best reps on here and I doubt they are actively fucking affiliates over.

You and mike are probably both right - we do get fucked out of leads due to the limitations of the tracking systems, and that is pretty much priced into the payouts. Bottom line, go with the highest EPC and make the most out of it. Not trying to tell you how to run your shit - you're doing higher volume than I am and have every right to be concerned about a percent or two. But I just think there is no way around it right now. Even if they went through all the trouble of making sure you got credit for every single lead, the payouts would eventually be lowered accordingly, and the EPC's would end up the same.

 

[Webwonder]

First and foremost I think that any legitimate leads that we affiliates generate need to be paid to "we affiliates".

Fuck the 4% that is supposedly worked into the payout... work that shit into the payout of the crooked affiliates.

I personally only deal with two networks, c2m and advaliant.

The thing about this whole thread that fucked me up the most was hearing that hitpath had a built in scrubber. I don't know if it's true and I honestly hope it's not. If it is, well that sucks dick.

Umm, Copeac, if it is true, I bet that they're not happy with you bro.

 

[Xrproto]

The thing about this whole thread that fucked me up the most was hearing that hitpath had a built in scrubber. I don't know if it's true and I honestly hope it's not. If it is, well that sucks dick.

ZOMG! Hitpath has a built in scrubber!

Built in or not, the ones that are going to scrub you will be it a box script that comes with or with out a scrubber or a custom one built.

 

[Spades]

Imagine a network offering 100% transparency and having a process in place to divulge every bit of this data? Just a thought.

As far as this discussion goes, I think everyone is right in a sense. I do agree with unarmed and Mike in that focusing on your EPC's and scaling is more beneficial at the end of the day. HOWEVER, once you've done this fairly well, it's impossible not to wonder about leaks such as pixel misfires. I think it's only right that a network openly expresses how they handle these issues with their larger affiliates and even occasionally throws you a bone. You should easily be able to tell if a network is taking care of you. As far as cookies and other tracking technology failing, we can only work with the networks until something more reliable and accurate comes along. Working against them or jumping around to different networks won't get you anywhere.

 

[jvincent]

I haven't weighed in on this thread in a while after igniting a firestorm, so I'll throw in another .02.

Mike, thanks for the response man. I'm pretty satisfied with that answer. The 4% of leads that fail due to cookie/legit tracking failure is not what I was talking about, and makes total sense to me that it's built into the payouts. That's legit. I was referring to intentional scrubbing of otherwise 100% trackable leads.

Hitpath does have a built in scrubber, and actually is exactly what I was referring to. What you said about them advertising it to you as a way to make more money/pad profits is also exactly what I was referring to -- I heard the same thing at a demo myself. That's what bothered me, because they'd say they had full tracking on those leads but intentionally wouldn't fire the pixels so you don't have to pay affiliates, but on the network side you could absolutely determine who had sent them, when they were sent, etc -- there was no tracking failure, just intentional pixel misfire. I agree with you on the sentiment too -- if an affiliate is sending shit traffic, cut them off. If they're not, leave them and let them keep going. But the whole "let's heavily scrub their traffic because we're not sure about the quality and not tell them were doing it" is not something I'm a fan of.

Webwonder: If Mike hadn't said it about Hitpath I would have anyways. I'd already pm'd it to windjc days ago when this thread started. Hitpath shouldn't be mad at Mike, if anyone, should be mad at me.

Regarding the whole "stop worrying about networks scrubbing you and only work with the ones you trust" -- I agree with this to an extent, and try to do that, but it can be hard. Even working with solely reputable networks you end up seeing funny things as far as conversions go, and then can't help but wonder, having been to demos like the one described above from Hitpath. Nonetheless, I, at least, have basically just accepted this as the way things are and optimize on whatever conversion "conditions" are going on on various types of offers. That being said, I do think it's not paranoid to at least ask questions and comment on situtations when noticing otherwise seemingly odd conversions going on.

I wasn't trying to raise a shitstorm in this thread, just wanted to mention the things that I've seen (a-la Hitpath, and a few other shady practices from some others), and then hear the affiliate network's side of the story. Props to those networks who did respond, especially Mike with the multiple answers after I asked for a response above. To anyone who read my posts -- I want to make clear I was not calling out any particular network when asking for certain people to respond, I just named people who I found trustworthy/helpful on this forum and thought might give a good response.Big props to the ones who did.

 

[mkrongel]

The fact that hit path or other software may or may not have a scrubber built in doesnt matter at all. Its what the user of the software does with it that makes the difference.

Everyone hates DT, but Copeac is in the top 5 of networks out there and we use DT, they have issues but who doesnt? I have seen other in-house programs go down as much as DT or any other software. Other DT networks might not track 100% (or 96%) but thats the fault of the network not the software. When we first started as a network that discrepancy was closer to 30% not 4%. We quickly realized this was an issue and worked on closing the gap. We have some months where its more like 1 or 2% but never larger than 4% in the past two years. This is because we managed the issue to minimize leakage the best we can.

What happens with to the 4%? its baked in to your payout, or in to the model that whats recorded is what gets paid for even when advertisers bitch about one bad lead out of 300 you produced (This happens a lot) sometimes we take the leads off the advertiser bill but not the affiliates earnings. Sometimes we continue to work with advertisers like this if the overall works for everyone, most of the time we boot these idiots off our network right away. If an advertiser has time to nit pick a handful of leads when they get thousands, they are small minded and will never grow. we tell advertisers to lower the payout to make up for bad phone numbers but they still dont get it and want to return leads with bad numbers or emails that come from bonafide search pubs because to them its fraud.

To me this thread seemed like the same small mindedness which is why i said focus on the big picture, there is leakage everywhere (Count the number of fries you get at mcdonalds for a small, itll never be the same amount or weight) know its there. what is wrong is when things change, you run an offer and boom conversions drop in half for no reason, and if its due to scrubbing on a network or adv side it is plain wrong to do, we caught a big email submit client doing this. Overall we showed 3K leads and they messed up and sent us a report showing we produced 14K leads, after the first report which showed 3K, so we terminated all of their offers but affiliates still get suckered on their offers in other networks.

 

[smaxor]

Hitpath does 100% have a scrubbing feature built into it. It was originally a system built for mailers running leads where their is a certain agreement to what scrubs are even based on I/O's. I know in our world those things don't apply, but in the mailing leads world it definitely does.

You guys need to realize anyone network that wants to scrub you will so no matter what platform. It's very easy all you have to do is give a script pixel to the advertiser that fires the network pixel in it. Then keep track of of leads you didn't fire in a db and bill the advertiser for the whole thing.

<script src="http://some3rdpartydomainthatisntthenetworkdomain.com/offer"></script>

Then you can do everything you want inside that pixel like scrub, host 3rd party pixels, fire the network pixel or whatever. The advertisers have no idea what you're giving them they just place it on the page and go about their business.

All this is much like a lock on the door. The lock keeps the honest people out. But if someone wants to scrub you they'll scrub you, bottom-line.

Split test networks on offers I've always said that from day one. I can guarantee that every offer we have will convert as good or better then every other tracking system out there. How do I know because I've tested. I believe in this so much that I even posted a split testing script on our network blog here http://www.ads4dough.com/affiliatenetworkblog/ppc-strategies/offer-split-testing-script

One very nice feature in hitpath is everything is linked to what's called a "hit id" or click id. So every lead that comes through is linked to a click. Then we pass that click id to the advertiser. What's so nice about this is we pull those click id's weekly and upload them to the system before the weekly wires go out. You'll get all your subid data to go along with your conversions that are uploaded. However if you're running a media cookie based pixel it won't fire properly as there was no cookie browser present. But This typically fixes any misfires that happens and brings things current. If you refresh your stats in hitpath it will often change on a day by day basis for past days. As the uploaded leads will be credited on the days the misfires happened. Cookie only based systems like DT you have to actually and go back and credit each lead count seperately to each affiliate which is a HUGE pain in the ass. This is nice because the advertiser dumps all conversion click id's and you you upload them into hitpath and it reconciles everything.

Just as with Guns. Guns don't kill people, people do. Same with scrubbing or any other dishonesty in this buisness, crooked people will be crooked. Work with people you trust the gun itself doesn't mean a whole lot.

Also one thing of note full cookie based systems seem to be somewhere between 3-5% dropped conversions just based on the technology as a whole. Cookie + postback systems seem to be around .5-1.5% dropped conversions and down to very very marginal numbers if you upload the hit id's. However there's always going to be a small difference between two tracking systems NO MATTER WHAT. Look at prosper 202 clicks vs. and network stats. They'll never be exact.

P.S. one more note when you calc EPC do it off your traffic source or prosper numbers and the networks earnings. There's definitely 1 network that shaves clicks that has a custom platform. So that your EPC's looks a lot better. They say we shave "bad clicks" whatever that means.

P.P.S I hadn't responded to the thread because I saw the title 20 times and didn't know what it meant so I never clicked on it. Network pixel misfires might have grabbed my attention but I've never heard the term "breakage". What is this fucking Walmart? Clean up on isle #4!

 

[Spades]

Hitpath does 100% have a scrubbing feature built into it. It was originally a system built for mailers running leads where their is a certain agreement to what scrubs are even based on I/O's. I know in our world those things don't apply, but in the mailing leads world it definitely does.

I do believe you on this Smax but it really doesn't make any damn sense. I mean, if those mailer networks are divulging the scrub on their I/O's why not simply reduce the payouts accordingly and call it a day. It just seems like it's another pointless and confusing factor to add to the game.

One very nice feature in hitpath is everything is linked to what's called a "hit id" or click id. So every lead that comes through is linked to a click. Then we pass that click id to the advertiser.

Exactly why p202 is the shit. Assigning and passing unique id's is by far the most accurate method of tracking, hands down. As time goes on cookies are probably going to be relied on less and less, obviously for return visitors there's not much else out there right now.

 

[andrew wee]

Er, aside from highlighting the issue of "pixel misfires" and the shortcomings of failed cookie tracking (due to safari users, cookies being turned off, aggressive settings for spybot/norton/ad-aware) and a new name being bandied around "link breakage", what's the point of this thread?

I remeber Mike Krongel mentioning about 2 years back that you can split test 2 similar offers from 2 networks and see the results for yourself, rather than this conspiracy theory speculation.

Smax has posted a script on his ooofff blog or the a4d blog about doing simple link rotation between 2 offers, else you can use p202 or t202 to do the split test.

-
I'd recommend going with Copeac, A4D, C2M if you're concerned about this, and testing against other networks.

In particular, I've noticed a trend of $0.50 - $2 zip/email submits tracking accurately 95% of the time on one particular network, and somehow my $30 leads go MIA about 50% of the time.

Unless you want to waste time on fighting a network/merchant, just find a better network and move on.

Time=opportunity=$ , don't waste your time pissing on the pavement and expecting things to resolve in your favor...

 

[windjc]

Er, aside from highlighting the issue of "pixel misfires" and the shortcomings of failed cookie tracking (due to safari users, cookies being turned off, aggressive settings for spybot/norton/ad-aware) and a new name being bandied around "link breakage", what's the point of this thread?

I remeber Mike Krongel mentioning about 2 years back that you can split test 2 similar offers from 2 networks and see the results for yourself, rather than this conspiracy theory speculation.

Smax has posted a script on his ooofff blog or the a4d blog about doing simple link rotation between 2 offers, else you can use p202 or t202 to do the split test.

-
I'd recommend going with Copeac, A4D, C2M if you're concerned about this, and testing against other networks.

In particular, I've noticed a trend of $0.50 - $2 zip/email submits tracking accurately 95% of the time on one particular network, and somehow my $30 leads go MIA about 50% of the time.

Unless you want to waste time on fighting a network/merchant, just find a better network and move on.

Time=opportunity=$ , don't waste your time pissing on the pavement and expecting things to resolve in your favor...

What was the point of this post? I think a lot of people got a lot of useful information from this thread. In fact, many of them pmed me to tell me so.

So you read a thread 2 years ago on this forum? Good for you. I wasnt around then.

 

[hannahmcintyre]

What was the point of this post? I think a lot of people got a lot of useful information from this thread. In fact, many of them pmed me to tell me so.

So you read a thread 2 years ago on this forum? Good for you. I wasnt around then.

The point is, read about opportunity cost. The time and effort you're putting into this isn't worth it compared to what you could be doing with the time.

 

[windjc]

The point is, read about opportunity cost. The time and effort you're putting into this isn't worth it compared to what you could be doing with the time.

Yeh it has been. Trust me. But how much money does it make him and you to tell others what is important to businesses they run that you know nothing specifically about? (hint:zero)

Not to sound like an ass, but just because we are all in AM, does not mean its cookie cutter. I dont need "time management" advice.

Edit: That sounded rather harsh. I apologize. But the bottom line is I'm not wasting time and its late and I get a little irritated when right after Smaxor posts some really good information, I feel I'm having to read condescending posts about what I or others "should" be doing with our time.