Anyone sick of scrubs? We are.

XMCP, see the other thread and my idea.

50 of us who are willing to either get a prepaid CC or go with a lower limit credit card, team up together on here and begin testing various offers. We post our results here for all to see.

Once Advertisers get a sense of what we're doing, it could potentially scare them into stopping, or at least, slowing down shaving. Why? Look at how fast Hydra Network was moved to Page 1 of Google from the previous fiasco. (they were proven innocent, the point is, there is power here)

I speak to many network owners who have told me in confidence they would LOVE to have proof to take back to the Advertiser and say "fix this or gtfo". Networks make money when we make money. They hate shaving as much as we do.

So what's the problem? Count me in as the first volunteer. Let's pick a name for the Group (e.g. The Shaved WatchDogs, NOSCRUBs etc), lets get 49 others to say I DO, let's begin exploitation and lets document it.

It's about time we had a watchdog organization in place regardless. Right now, Advertisers are on a high pedestal and are pulling the strings without any checks and balances. It's time we did something about it.
 


Roundabout said:
XMCP, see the other thread and my idea.

50 of us who are willing to either get a prepaid CC or go with a lower limit credit card, team up together on here and begin testing various offers. We post our results here for all to see.

Once Advertisers get a sense of what we're doing, it could potentially scare them into stopping, or at least, slowing down shaving.

I speak to many network owners who have told me in confidence they would LOVE to have proof to take back to the Advertiser and say "fix this or gtfo". Networks make money when we make money. They hate shaving as much as we do.

So what's the problem? Count me in as the first volunteer. Let's pick a name for the Group (e.g. The Shaved WatchDogs, Shaving Watchdogs, etc), lets get 49 others to say I DO, let's begin exploitation and lets document it.

It's about time we had a watchdog organization in place regardless. Right now, Advertisers are on a high pedestal and are pulling the strings without any checks and balances. It's time we did something about it.
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Don't a lot of the merchants block prepaid credit cards?
Also, which cards let you autogen temporary cc numbers?

No matter what it's worth a go.
 
xmcp123 said:
So I had a reply to you, but it was actually too long to post. I'll summarize with a smaller list(not threaded anymore):
-There's accountability for the affiliate.
-There's accountability to an extent for the network.
-There's none for the advertiser(which we actually tried to do in this thread, though it doesn't seem like you noticed that)

-Dealing with the advertisers is the networks job. It's what they fucking do. Why would we give them a cut if they're not doing this? Yeah it's hard. But that's why they make money for it.

-I'm not stupid. I know when my leads are good and when they're piss. When I've been told of the quality, it's pretty much always where I thought it'd be.
-The entire reason we send people to THEIR site is so they have a chance to inform/prequalify the user. Otherwise we'd all be using whitelabels.

-We all know the industry is changing, and we're trying to position ourselves in a way to not get fucked, but until then, us bitching IS us trying not to get fucked.
-What you call "bitching" has done a LOT of positive things for affiliates. Do you remember the companies that we've brought fucking hell to? That all started with bitching.
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Theres no accountability for the advertisers because they know they can screw over network A because network B will pick them up, because affiliates will still run the offer no matter what network its on.

Want a list of those who scrub? People will still run with them. Until people just say no and push the weak out youll always have this issue. How many networks still have email submits that scrub hard? and tons of them too.

Someone mentioned a thread about another network. The advertiser in that situation is still seeing traffic from other affiliates, just waiting for another month or so to cry foul and shave, or scrub, or simply not pay anymore.

By promoting their offers you help them to not be accountable.

Also while we are on this subject, you guys also have complained about advertisers who dont let people cancel, etc, etc... What you should watch out for are companies who sell the consumer another product in the terms but never mentions this add on product on the site. These negative options will kill the free trial plus S/H model and ruin it for everyone. If someone is willing to ADD on hiden terms to consumers, dont you think theyll do the same to you in the end when they no longer need you?

Work with merchants who do the right thing, just like AM theres white, black and gray hat when it comes to running a continuity offer. Jon hit this point right on, if you support those who rob from you or the consumer you will rob yourself of a lucrative and long term business and trade it in for regulation, and anihilation.
 
mkrongel said:
Until people just say no and push the weak out youll always have this issue. How many networks still have email submits that scrub hard? and tons of them too.
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Mike - I'm thinking that the heavy scrubs are not from the weak. They're from the strong. Because all the serious rebills that make US money, theyre all from the same 5-7 clowns out there who control it all. And yes, we continue to promote knowing we're being shaved, but what choice do I have? As I said in another post, I work on high margins so I accept this as leakage and part of the business.

I agree with everything you said, but disagree on you calling these guys the WEAK.. they're strong, very strong. Can they be made to buckle? Hope so.
 
Work with merchants who do the right thing, just like AM theres white, black and gray hat when it comes to running a continuity offer. Jon hit this point right on, if you support those who rob from you or the consumer you will rob yourself of a lucrative and long term business and trade it in for regulation, and anihilation.
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As affiliates, how are we to know which merchants are "doing the right thing?"

The short answer is we leave it up to our affiliate networks to do the vetting for us.

Also, Mike and Smaxor are saying that most of the "shaving" we're seeing is because problems on the advertiser side with their billing. Well, I would say the ball is in the network's court to have better communication with the advertisers and redirect offers accordingly.

It's impossible for us to know each advertiser's reputation or their situation with their merchant account because 99% of the time we don't even know who the advertiser is. I don't think I'm alone on thinking that this is part of the network's "job."

I'm not trying to jump all over Mike and Jason bc I appreciate their input in the conversation, but at the same time, I think in owning the networks they have forgotten how little information is passed down to affiliates: we have the name of the offer and a link to use. That's about it.

Also, I'm almost positive I know what offers Mike is talking about (not found on COPEAC or Ads4), and I'm guilty of running them myself...
 
cdc said:
As affiliates, how are we to know which merchants are "doing the right thing?"

The short answer is we leave it up to our affiliate networks to do the vetting for us.

Also, Mike and Smaxor are saying that most of the "shaving" we're seeing is because problems on the advertiser side with their billing. Well, I would say the ball is in the network's court to have better communication with the advertisers and redirect offers accordingly.

It's impossible for us to know each advertiser's reputation or their situation with their merchant account because 99% of the time we don't even know who the advertiser is. I don't think I'm alone on thinking that this is part of the network's "job."

I'm not trying to jump all over Mike and Jason bc I appreciate their input in the conversation, but at the same time, I think in owning the networks they have forgotten how little information is passed down to affiliates: we have the name of the offer and a link to use. That's about it.

Also, I'm almost positive I know what offers Mike is talking about (not found on COPEAC or Ads4), and I'm guilty of running them myself...
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K you fail too. How about you read the damn thread before posting dumb shit like this? You could have saved your self an ass raping..
 
cdc said:
Well, I would say the ball is in the network's court to have better communication with the advertisers and redirect offers accordingly.
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Falsetto, maestro. Credit cards are one ingredient in the scrub recipe. I have no idea how big an ingredient. The Advertiser's "job" is to convince the network (and us) its 100% of the pie. But you can't expect a network to redirect an offer.. based on what? Based on a hunch of scrubbing? So because you send shitty traffic all my clicks get redirected? NOT!

If an Advertiser gave a shit, this is what they would do:

If I send them a referral with a stolen credit card, or who did something fraudulent, report the email address back to the network, who then in turns tells me "remove this email from your list" (I know PPC guys can't do this, but can ban by IP)

Send me a weekly or even monthly list of scrubs so I can purge them from my lists. Help the publisher be a better publisher through teamwork and effort.

Help me.. help you! HELP.. ME.... HELP... YOU!
 
What I don't see is anyone saying the networks shave. For instance, the offer says it pays ok US only, where does your traffic from elsewhere go? Who gets paid on it? If the network isn't redirecting traffic that you get paid to somewhere else people should be screaming about it.

I'm betting there are quite a few networks who shave publishers.
 
Mike, Jon and everyone else --

As a newbie affiliate marketer, is there some type of interaction I should be having with my AM or the advertisers I promote that can help ensure I'm delivering quality traffic and I'm getting scrubbed as little as possible?
 
apatters said:
Mike, Jon and everyone else --

As a newbie affiliate marketer, is there some type of interaction I should be having with my AM or the advertisers I promote that can help ensure I'm delivering quality traffic and I'm getting scrubbed as little as possible?
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You mean talking to your affiliate manager? They're the ones that will be able to keep you updated, it really depends what sort of volume you're pushing to an offer as to how far they will help you.
 
mkrongel said:
Theres no accountability for the advertisers because they know they can screw over network A because network B will pick them up, because affiliates will still run the offer no matter what network its on.
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Is there any reason Lawyers aren't used then? Seems like that's the way it would be handled in nearly any industry.
But if that's not a possibility, what are the chances of the major networks coming together to create some kind of blacklist? A minor network picking up an offer with a scrub/shave doesn't seem like it'd be a competitive advantage(the opposite actually). And it seems like it'd be in the interest of networks to create some kind of accountability.
Want a list of those who scrub? People will still run with them. Until people just say no and push the weak out youll always have this issue. How many networks still have email submits that scrub hard? and tons of them too.
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I agree to an extent. People will still push it. I know I myself have pushed offers I knew scrubbed.
But an offer being on a list means that people will at least be LOOKING for something else.
The other thing is that one of the reasons places can get away with this stuff is because it's so easy to change offer names or company names. It takes next to no effort to set up a new E-Mail/Zip submit offer, so accountability sometimes seems pointless.
In instances where we are pretty certain there's shaving(like in the CC# tests we've been discussing), I fully plan on outing every single offer they own. Possibly contact numbers(maybe not; I go back and forth on that one). But I'm more than capable of finding them. Take out as many birds with one stone as possible.
Someone mentioned a thread about another network. The advertiser in that situation is still seeing traffic from other affiliates, just waiting for another month or so to cry foul and shave, or scrub, or simply not pay anymore.
By promoting their offers you help them to not be accountable.
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But at the same time I actually saw an offer that looked good, found out it was theirs, and didn't run a single lead to it. And I doubt I'm the only one.
Also while we are on this subject, you guys also have complained about advertisers who dont let people cancel, etc, etc... What you should watch out for are companies who sell the consumer another product in the terms but never mentions this add on product on the site. These negative options will kill the free trial plus S/H model and ruin it for everyone. If someone is willing to ADD on hiden terms to consumers, dont you think theyll do the same to you in the end when they no longer need you?
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Agreed.
Work with merchants who do the right thing, just like AM theres white, black and gray hat when it comes to running a continuity offer. Jon hit this point right on, if you support those who rob from you or the consumer you will rob yourself of a lucrative and long term business and trade it in for regulation, and anihilation.
Click to expand...
Agreed again.
 
What you should watch out for are companies who sell the consumer another product in the terms but never mentions this add on product on the site. These negative options will kill the free trial plus S/H model and ruin it for everyone. If someone is willing to ADD on hiden terms to consumers, dont you think theyll do the same to you in the end when they no longer need you?
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I also agree. However, why aren't networks refusing these types of offers/advertisers? Hopefully these threads will open some eyes and increase dialog between the networks and the pubs. I think its agreed that we all understand that there will be some scrubbing, all we ask for is some consistency and a little more dialog from the AM's and networks.

If an offer is having problems on the backend or if the advertiser is screwing around with settings then we need (publishers) to be informed asap. Networks need to hold the advertisers responsible for at least communicating more effectively when there is a problem. We need a shit load more transparency.
 
I had an interesting incident happen to me today.

My AM contacted me from a network I won't name, and said an offer I had run, had about 10 leads that the advertiser claimed were fraudulent/bad credit cards. First time this has ever happened to me.

I asked for the email addresses of the people so I could remove them from my list, and got all 10 of them within an hour.

And guess what? 4 of the email addresses were @ yahoo.com. Well fuck me, guess what folks? The platform I mailed the offer to, doesnt mail yahoo.com. There is no way these people were from me.

I reported this to the AM, they got pissed and have now contacted the Advertiser. Will keep you updated.

I don't think it's a big deal, the size of the bad leads is so small it wasnt even worth me fighting about it. However, my AM got very upset and said there would be hell to pay and said they would begin screaming at the Advertiser to get to the bottom of it.

Do I think it's a nationwide conspiracy? No. Probably just a fuckup on their part. Now the people I emailed could have submitted a YAHOO address on the form, which is the response I'm expecting them to return, however, I do have their IP address and first/last name, I did a search to see if they even existed in my data, no matches.

BTW this was an Advertiser who cancelled their campaign after 30 days, so I'm thinking they knew they were dropping the offer, and thought they'd try and shave as much possible, through either lying or bogus claims, to pay as little as possible back to the network. We'll see...
 
Here's what I have been thinking, get a system up like one of those livechat boxes that popup but actually staff it yourself, only have it popup after they click on the offer on the lp. Once they start going through the process you can ask them what it says on the last page (Talk with them as well if they have any questions) after they sign up and enter all the info, that should effectivly could as a lead everytime, if its not showing up then you know something is wrong. Don't get me wrong, this would require you to probably talk to these people but it should give you a really good idea on what % of your leads are actually getting counted.

Anyone know of any system like this that is already in place, or have any suggestions ? Seems like it would be worth a shot at least, even if most people ignore the chat window, the select few that don't will still give you some insight.
 
sent 10 leads to an advertiser today.... they decided from 10 leads they wouldnt pay me for any more.... cmon.. 10 leads... so sad.. why even have that offer on your network
 
penguinbc said:
Here's what I have been thinking, get a system up like one of those livechat boxes that popup but actually staff it yourself, only have it popup after they click on the offer on the lp. Once they start going through the process you can ask them what it says on the last page (Talk with them as well if they have any questions) after they sign up and enter all the info, that should effectivly could as a lead everytime, if its not showing up then you know something is wrong. Don't get me wrong, this would require you to probably talk to these people but it should give you a really good idea on what % of your leads are actually getting counted.

Anyone know of any system like this that is already in place, or have any suggestions ? Seems like it would be worth a shot at least, even if most people ignore the chat window, the select few that don't will still give you some insight.
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Sorry to double post, but if we had something like this and coupled it with that other thread outing offers that are shaving/scrubbing hard, and with a few people here who would volunteer to run the live chat on their own offers they think might be scrubbing/shaving for maybe an hour or however long it takes to get some accurate data, we could find out what % of leads are not being counted on even the biggest biz op, diet, and grant ads out right now. The offers usually have something unique on the last page after order confirmation maybe an order number or a thank you or something we could ask the customer to give us at the end to prove they ordered. I just need to find some kind of livechat system that could be used this way.
 
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