Best order to learn languages in?

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Truffles

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I'm pretty decent with HTML/CSS and can hack PHP/Javascript a bit but not at the point yet where I'm able to fully write my own stuff beyond includes.

Soon I will be investing some time into learning more on the development side and I'm debating what to learn and what will give me the most mileage in terms of creating web projects/apps.

I've been told that a solid knowledge of PHP/MySQL is pretty core and then other things come more easily, but I also am interested in things like Ruby on Rails for quick app development. I have an understanding of programming concepts and pick that stuff up quickly, just trying to determine the best direction to start in.

Any suggestions?
 


Normally I'd go from Clientside to ServerSide, as Server side is fine and dandy but doesn't count for much if you're trying to make something presentable. My personal opinion though would be something like (if choosing Php/MySQL as your serverside components, alternatively there's Ruby/PostgreSQL, or ColdFusion, or ASP/M$ SQL).

1) xHTML
2) CSS
3) Javascript then a JS framework such as JQuery
4) JQuery Interacting with CSS and DOM
5) PHP
6) MySQL
7) PHP w/ MySQL
8) PHP w/ MySQL Interacting with JQuery via Ajax

I know the above, but moving into Python/SQLite to add onto the skillset.
 
Im only "ok" with programming but this is the order I learned stuff in and how well i know it on a 1 through 10 scale:
HTML = 9/10
CSS = 8
PHP = 6/7
PHP/mySQL = 5/6
PERL = 4/5

And there are some others that i know just enough to do some damage with. But i think PHP/mySQL has really helped me out a lot with some of my projects. Here is a decent site to help you learn them if you are just beginning and want to learn the basics of them. Tizag Tutorials
 
kineticbug said:
^
Don't be scared of buying a few books, either.
Click to expand...

Though ebooks of said books works just as well (depends how you are with reference material). Just make sure that the books cover:

HTML 4 and possibly the upcoming 5, and xHTML
CSS 2.1 and the upcoming 3
PHP 5.2* and the upcoming PHP 6
MySQL 5.0+

Cuz basically if you grab something covering PHP3 and <marque> you might hurt yourself :D
 
This is great advice so far--thanks guys.

Are certain languages more geared towards certain types of projects? Or are they fairly interchangeable? I mean, obviously MySQL is focused around databases and such but I'm not really sure about the strengths of PHP vs. JavaScript or Rails for example.
 
Truffles said:
This is great advice so far--thanks guys.

Are certain languages more geared towards certain types of projects? Or are they fairly interchangeable? I mean, obviously MySQL is focused around databases and such but I'm not really sure about the strengths of PHP vs. JavaScript or Rails for example.
Click to expand...

MySQL IS a database server.

Far as PHP vs Javascript, really quite simple PHP is a server-sided language, runs on the server not on the browser, where as Javascript runs on the clientside in the browser. Course Javascript is going to be quite a bit more limited than PHP, but the two work best when used together.

On the client side there's not really much to compare, Javascript is bout the only cross-browser/cross-platform scripting language you can use on the client side. If you want to argue comparison you would look at javascript frameworks such as Prototype vs JQuery vs MooTools vs etc.

On the server side you're likely to see debates like PHP vs Ruby (or Ruby on Rails) vs Cold Fusion vs ASP.net and so on. The biggest benefit of PHP and MySQL is that it is supported with virtually every hosting provider even a free ad-supported godddy hosting account. Where as you're not likely to run Ruby, Python, Cold Fusion etc on a Shared hosting provider.

In a lot of cases the differences will boil down to personal preference or familiarity.
 
For programming languages, if you really want to learn, start with C or Visual Basic. They are not exactly web languages, but most of what's out there today is based on one or the other.

For SQL, you are going to be a lot more comfortable if you understand some of the concepts first. Most all the flavors of SQL will be consistent with the basic operations like INSERT, SELECT, etc.
 
1) xHTML
2) CSS
3) Javascript then a JS framework such as JQuery
4) JQuery Interacting with CSS and DOM
5) PHP
6) MySQL
7) PHP w/ MySQL
8) PHP w/ MySQL Interacting with JQuery via Ajax
Click to expand...

I couldn't agree more with this order I'm now learning PHP & MySQL and and having learned JavaScript first really helped with the PHP, the most challenging part I had with PHP & MySQL was setting up the development environment. What a FUCKING Pain in the ASS!!! I bought Head First PHP & MySQL and I am almost finished it, but for a book that teaches you the basics it fell flat on it's face telling you how to set everything up.
 
jryan21 said:
For programming languages, if you really want to learn, start with C...
Click to expand...


Yikes... I would stay far away from C as a first language. Programming is hard enough to learn without also having to worry about memory management, etc. Although VB would be an ok start.

I think PHP is about the only option as a first "real" (non HTML) language. It is very simple, forgiving, and the results are immediate. Plus what you learn will be directly applicable to the web stuff you want to do.
 
XML
PHP
Javascript
MySQL

It is a never ending process...wish there was a Wickedfire Code Camp or something for scripting like the Make Monae No Excuse threads...That would be massive! All work from newbie to damn good coder in 90 days. No shortcuts but a good course of work that build essential skills so you can build your own bots, scripts, automations..etc.
 
WildGunner said:
XML
PHP
Javascript
MySQL

It is a never ending process...wish there was a Wickedfire Code Camp or something for scripting like the Make Monae No Excuse threads...That would be massive! All work from newbie to damn good coder in 90 days. No shortcuts but a good course of work that build essential skills so you can build your own bots, scripts, automations..etc.
Click to expand...

That sounds like a pretty cool idea. People could get some free work done out of it too.
 
kblessinggr said:
1) xHTML
2) CSS
3) Javascript then a JS framework such as JQuery
4) JQuery Interacting with CSS and DOM
5) PHP
6) MySQL
7) PHP w/ MySQL
8) PHP w/ MySQL Interacting with JQuery via Ajax
Click to expand...

That's a pretty good game plan for a complete education.

I'd say that 5, 6 & 7 should go above #3 ... it's easier & more productive. You will really feel like you're getting somewhere when you complete step 4 & are all of a sudden able to build DB driven sites.

The JS steps are for web2.0 prettiness ... while it's important for award winning sites, I'm a strong supporter of the development fundamentals. JS has no place there and is really all bells & whistles.

All that said, if you've got a few months and have to know 100% of this stuff like the back of your hand, Karl's todo list will get you up to speed quicker. You'll likely get lazy doing it my way since you'll feel like your competent enough to move forward without JS.
 
So. Very. Happy. - I cut my teeth on Oracle 7 when I was 23 and I can write SQL scripts while I sleep.

Still working on PHP which is easier overall....but still complicated.
 
Sharksfan said:
So. Very. Happy. - I cut my teeth on Oracle 7 when I was 23 and I can write SQL scripts while I sleep.

Still working on PHP which is easier overall....but still complicated.
Click to expand...

Are you kidding me?

PHP is one of the easiest languages you can learn because it's pretty straight forward. You don't worry about the stack, pointers, or defining variable scope.

Like any language the only real challenge to PHP is learning all the functions (as is any language), but that will come in time.

Personally I'd recommend you first learn a lower level language like c or c++ (c if your programatic, c++ if your an OO fag). Stay away from that C# bullshit.

From there everything else will be a cake walk. Then go, xhtml and css (although css can wait), javascript (and maybe a javascript framework like jQuery), PHP & MySQL (or some SQL derivative).

Those who think you should learn PHP or MySQL and then the other are just kidding yourself as it'd make PHP virtually worthless for web apps IMHO. Really, MySQL is easy enough to be rolled into learning PHP.
 
erect said:
The JS steps are for web2.0 prettiness ... while it's important for award winning sites, I'm a strong supporter of the development fundamentals. JS has no place there and is really all bells & whistles.
Click to expand...

With that sentence right there, I think you don't fully grasp what Javascript especially in the AJAX capability is capable of. Visual effects such as scriptaculous, dragables, and morphs are only a very small aspect of what javascript could do for you. There's a lot more to help speed up productivity with JS <-> PHP interaction especially with Json, also as well as advanced DOM control using a library such as JQuery to handle events. There's so much more than just 'web2.0 prettiness', if you can't grasp that you're not as strong a supporter of dev fundamentals as you thought.
 
Rage9 said:
Those who think you should learn PHP or MySQL and then the other are just kidding yourself as it'd make PHP virtually worthless for web apps IMHO. Really, MySQL is easy enough to be rolled into learning PHP.
Click to expand...

There's even a MySQL class wrapper that treats the connection much like ADO on the Microsoft Side... course I never touched the stuff so couldn't say much more.
 
Oald1 said:
xhtml css php java that is the way i did it
Click to expand...

I went quite a bit more twisted route. I started webdevelopment back when clients demanded that you get a DHTML/Javascript layout working identically in both Internet Exploder 4 and Nutscrape 3... you thought getting IE6 was frustrating? You haven't seen frustration til you had to make those ancient beasts work alike...

In any case, it kinda went something like this starting in the mid 90s

- QBasic, QuickBasic, Fortran, Pascal and C++ in my mid to highschool years
- ASP, VBasic, VC++, and the three combined especially with ActiveX controls at my first job
- Oracle and SQL Server with the above for an employment security commission, plus some administration with IIS Webserver on Windows NT4 on a dual pentium 200mhz.
- Basic HTML, Early CSS, and Some raw Javascript and VBScript (mostly in IE4 and 5)
- Got laid of shortly after 9/11, not a lot of freelancing clients had or could afford windows hosting, learned the the very rough basics of PHP and MySQL in a month for the first two freelance jobs (actually kinda easy going from ASP to PHP, mainly just a matter of syntax)
- Dabbled a few years doing php/mysql for a while, started getting more familiar with the client side elements.
- Strengthened cross-browser development by concentrating on xhtml and css, learned a lil xml + xslt
- Started strengthening Javascript, discovered Prototype+Scriptaculous
- Moved onto Learning JQuery, liking that much better from a CSS standpoint
- Now learning a lil bit of Python for specialize projects. Also looking at using SQLite for some very small amount of projects.


Haven't really had to touch a microsoft based programming language in a while, except when I had to write a windows desktop application for a client a couple weeks ago, kinda handy how macs have intel processors now days, back in 2002 when I had a PowerMac G4/733mhz along side my custom built PC with Win 2000 pro, I wouldn't even think about ever using the mac solely as my development platform, but eh, here I am.

I guess what I'm trying to get at, if you can get thru a structured course of languages covering the numbered list I originally posted, and be done with it in 6 months time, you still would not have learned much. I mean sure PHP in itself compared to most other server sided web languages is pretty easy and the syntax is quite simple to remember, and extensions are at times equally as easy.

The problem is, having an encyclopedia in your head doesn't count for anything if you don't have the analytical thought process that is forged by experience and problems thrown at you over the years. Simply put the best course of action is first figuring out what your problem is in the first place before you can start looking for solutions.
 
kblessinggr said:
With that sentence right there, I think you don't fully grasp what Javascript especially in the AJAX capability is capable of. Visual effects such as scriptaculous, dragables, and morphs are only a very small aspect of what javascript could do for you. There's a lot more to help speed up productivity with JS <-> PHP interaction especially with Json, also as well as advanced DOM control using a library such as JQuery to handle events. There's so much more than just 'web2.0 prettiness', if you can't grasp that you're not as strong a supporter of dev fundamentals as you thought.
Click to expand...

Here's a list of 50 jquery widgets ... name one of them that are necessary for functionality.

When you say speed up productivity, you really mean "speed up page surfing" ... it's a roadblock for development productivity (rapid development). The fundamentals for web development are the things that make a site display and get indexed. JS doesn't fit into that picture at all and is NOT a requirement. It's an addon when you feel like making shiny applications and therefore gets bumped down the todo list.

Sure, php can't change shit when the page is loaded, but that's NOT a fundamental of building a site ... it's called web2.0 prettiness in my book.

BTW: php can interract with json, just not on a loaded page. I know because I use it daily when scraping the adwords tool ... lets see jquery pull that one out of his ass.

Don't get me wrong, I'm happy that when I want to edit a post here @ WF (like I just did) I don't have to wait for the page to reload. But really, you being able to make a site fancy is more important than hardcore programming? Really? A web fundamental?

Now, if you were talking about using JS to take over a users computer and load malware ... ok, I'd agree.
 
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