EPA Good or Bad? Fracking Pollution Found

[REIMktg]

Drilling the ANWAR would bring that up to a whopping 89% and that is after whatever number of years it takes to get setup.

Did I mention ANWAR? Now who is stuck on talking points. Why do you think it takes years to get set up?


Markets move on speculation, what would happen to a local market if WalMart says they are moving is? The rest of the Market would move based on speculation of the impact, in fact, they would likely "price in" the move immediately whether it happens or not. Are you saying that a serious move by the US toward no oil drilling restriction, waiver of environmental rules, allowing the same for all energy types natural gas & coal, and a serious push in alternative energy would not move the markets. Do you really believe that?


To be honest, when most people talk about drill baby drill, it is part of an overall mindset that we should be able to freely and aggressively access all of our natural energy resources.

So the price has been somewhat high since the 1850s?
The price from around 1986-1999 was about half of what it is now, even if we adjust for inflation, yet we drilled more back then. Currently we are the 3rd biggest driller of oil behind Russia and Saudi Arabia.

So the price was half then and we drilled more. Are you making my point here?

US regulations only apply to the US, therefore they only apply to a relatively small amount of worldwide supply. Adding a few more drops 15 years from now to the bucket will cause other nations to scramble? Basic economics says otherwise.

Your presumption is that, if the rules were changed as I propose, we would react that slowly. We have a different view of the adaptability of US business.

Ah yes, the US is gonna supply oil for the whole world. Who is the crazy one again?

You are right, sometimes, in fact many times, I equate oil with all energy sources. The main theme being that the floodgates should be open to energy production. Byt he way, if we have trillions of barrels available and there were no rules/restrictions on drilling, I have a feeling we would be the low cost provider given innovation, worker productivity, and our stable economy.

So the US can supply itself with all the oil it needs, even though the oil companies own geologists say otherwise, and drilling millions of barrels a day is defined as not drilling?

If we have trillions of barrels then how is it that we do not have enough?
When I think that we are drilling 87% of 1954 and 60% of what we did in 1970 in spite of finding massive additional deposits - to me that is akin to not drilling. But of course you wnat to split words. When I ran a division of a company, even though I was #1 across 500 other branches doing the same thing, yet I knew we were producing at 50% potential, I would tell my employees we were doing nothing. I guess that's my mentality. It's not what we are doing, its what we should be and could be doing that matters to me.


When I see people struggling to make their mortgage, people who cannot feed their families, people losing their homes and then I see all of their disposable income going into the gas tanks of their cars. I get pissed. Maybe you understand the plight of the working class and maybe you do not. I come from the working class and let me tell you, our policies of keeping prices high is a disgrace. One that ruins families, ruins neighborhoods, ruins lives, creates divorce, and ruins dreams.


The same with the EPA. The way they make rules that local contractors cannot adhere to and then fine them $32,000 per day for a violation. When they shut down local small independent diesel truck drivers, ..... just forget it.


You keep thinking you know it all. You keep voting for more regulation. You keep destroying families --- and now attack me for bringing in logical fallacies and appealing to emotion. Whatever. We will never agree.

This is why, and I will quote Rush Limbaugh on this, liberals cannot be negotiated with nor reasoned with, they need to be defeated.

 

[Moxie]

Geeks on the interweb do not know how true conversations about these issues occur.

Most people in real life interpret "no one will let us drill our own" as meaning that we can't drill at all, or that we are drilling very little.

Maybe you and the Hellblazers can translate phrases like "Obama is gonna kill our grandmas" into something like "I'm slightly concerned about this new health care system", but the rest of us can't.

Ya'll are sitting there, ready to snipe at the slightest generality when any commodity trader or person in the industry would understand the point.

It's not slight, it's an obnoxious exaggeration/totally misleading statement. The masses are easily mislead and have no idea if the US is 3rd or 30th in oil production, yet you and other "honest Christians" like Sarah Palin have no interest in communicating the reality.

You can win on your point, but you are ignoring the overall issues.

Responding to other issues you raise would be responding to red herrings. I may or may not be the biggest supporter in the world of more US drilling, but that is not relevant to what I was addressing.

How you cannot see that oil demand is flat, there is a ton of it at our fingertips, yet the price has skyrocketed.... you think that is sustainable? Only if regulators make it so, in other words thwart the free market, which is what the EPA etc is doing.

Oil is in an unsustainable bubble. Stocks were in the 2000's, Real Estate was just a few years ago and is still somewhat today, and Gold and Oil are now. This too will drop like a rock.

Red herrings.. none of which provide evidence as to how the US can supply its own oil or dramatically lower prices.

Did I mention ANWAR? Now who is stuck on talking points.

ANWAR is one of the major areas that can be drilled. You really don't see how it is pertinent to mention how much oil can come out of it?

Why do you think it takes years to get set up?

Markets move on speculation, what would happen to a local market if WalMart says they are moving is? The rest of the Market would move based on speculation of the impact, in fact, they would likely "price in" the move immediately whether it happens or not. Are you saying that a serious move by the US toward no oil drilling restriction, waiver of environmental rules, allowing the same for all energy types natural gas & coal, and a serious push in alternative energy would not move the markets. Do you really believe that?

No, I'm saying it wouldn't have anywhere near the dramatic effect that you say. New areas are frequently opened up all over the world.

So the price was half then and we drilled more. Are you making my point here?

You said we drilled more with the higher price.

If we have trillions of barrels then how is it that we do not have enough?

The US only has 21 billion in proven reserves, but whatever the actual number is it can only be sucked up at a certain rate, and yes, these operations take years to be put in place. Google is your friend if you really don't know that.

When I see people struggling to make their mortgage, people who cannot feed their families, people losing their homes and then I see all of their disposable income going into the gas tanks of their cars. I get pissed. Maybe you understand the plight of the working class and maybe you do not. I come from the working class and let me tell you, our policies of keeping prices high is a disgrace. One that ruins families, ruins neighborhoods, ruins lives, creates divorce, and ruins dreams.

:crying: Did you copy that off of a Occupy Wall Street sign? Feel free to bring EVIDENCE to the table or use LOGIC to show us how not pumping a relatively tiny bit more oil out of the planet is causing those things to happen.

You keep voting for more regulation.

No, but I might start doing that to cancel out your vote.

You keep destroying families

It's hard keeping track of how many families I've destroyed by using a bit of logic and referencing facts on a message board.

You keep thinking you know it all.

I have no first hand knowledge of oil resources or drilling. I've given no personal opinions and am merely passing along what the information available to us says. You are the one getting emotionally butthurt.

This is why, and I will quote Rush Limbaugh on this, liberals cannot be negotiated with nor reasoned with, they need to be defeated.

reason -

to think or argue in a logical manner.

to form conclusions, judgments, or inferences from facts or premises.

 

[johnmatrix]

You keep voting for more regulation. You keep destroying families

Destroying families because they can't afford petrol? catch a fuckin' bus instead!

For some perspective, it's $5.69 a gallon here and our cars cost twice the price. I even did all the conversions for you since we use the metric system, the tool of the devil.

 

[REIMktg]

Destroying families because they can't afford petrol? catch a fuckin' bus instead!

For some perspective, it's $5.69 a gallon here and our cars cost twice the price. I even did all the conversions for you since we use the metric system, the tool of the devil.

Adaptation takes time. During times of change people suffer. That's a simple fact. You can talk arrogantly about taking a bus, but the fact is that higher gas prices take away from disposable income, this creates family stress over finances. Stress over finances is a #1 cause of divorce. Divorce normally harms families.

Is it a lack of forethought that put them in this situation, sure, of course. but that does not lessen the fact that policies and regulations that increase the price of fuel does have a negative impact.

I would say the same thing for policies forcing the use of corn for ethanol. More demand for corn unrelated to providing food increases world food production. There are people in this world starving, if the price of food goes up slightly, those on the borderline will now starve also.

Its just economics. But you are right, all of these people should adapt, but as Obama says, change is hard, change is difficult. My point is that during this time of change, people suffer.

 

[REIMktg]

Most people in real life interpret "no one will let us drill our own" as meaning that we can't drill at all, or that we are drilling very little.

Fair enough. Sometimes I type casually without realizing the scrutiny.

Maybe you and the Hellblazers can translate phrases like "Obama is gonna kill our grandmas" into something like "I'm slightly concerned about this new health care system", but the rest of us can't.

Then maybe you should bring a sense of humor to the table. This is STS after all, not a formal debate. Participants are allowed to say what they want.

It's not slight, it's an obnoxious exaggeration/totally misleading statement. The masses are easily mislead and have no idea if the US is 3rd or 30th in oil production, yet you and other "honest Christians" like Sarah Palin have no interest in communicating the reality.

Wow, there's a leap. By the way, I am a crappy Christian. I fail every day and I am no example, if it were not for the Christian ignorance on doctrine that is shown in this forum I would have kept my mouth shut - I am not a good person and would never let you know I believe in Christianity if we knew each other offline.

Responding to other issues you raise would be responding to red herrings. I may or may not be the biggest supporter in the world of more US drilling, but that is not relevant to what I was addressing.
Red herrings.. none of which provide evidence as to how the US can supply its own oil or dramatically lower prices.
ANWAR is one of the major areas that can be drilled. You really don't see how it is pertinent to mention how much oil can come out of it?

No. I believe in innovation. I believe that our oil sands, our shale, and all of our other reserves could be easily tapped if we had the will to do so. I also believe that with innovation we could build enough geothermal, solar, or wind plants to make energy practically free.

No, I'm saying it wouldn't have anywhere near the dramatic effect that you say. New areas are frequently opened up all over the world.
You said we drilled more with the higher price.
The US only has 21 billion in proven reserves, but whatever the actual number is it can only be sucked up at a certain rate, and yes, these operations take years to be put in place. Google is your friend if you really don't know that.

Proven reserves has a specific EIA definition:
EIA defines proved reserves as those volumes of oil and natural gas that geologic and engineering data demonstrate with reasonable certainty to be recoverable in future years from known reservoirs under existing economic and operating conditions. Proved reserves are a small subset of recoverable resources with a probability of recovery of at least 90%.

There are so many assumptions in the above that it is not worth analyzing. If you are saying we do not have significant reserves in the hundreds of billions and even into the trillions (remember the shale) then that is a point worth talking about. Because surely if I only thought we had 21 billion bbl, then I would not think the way I do.

Did you copy that off of a Occupy Wall Street sign? Feel free to bring EVIDENCE to the table or use LOGIC to show us how not pumping a relatively tiny bit more oil out of the planet is causing those things to happen.

I gave evidence in my last post to you. Granted I was on the phone while typing it making it easier to pick apart. The gist was that it is not just drilling of oil that will make all of the difference. But a clear and strategic energy policy that allows circumvention of EPA and environmental rules, within reason, unlimited permitting, possible tort claim protection along with alternative energy proposals that ignore the desert turtle and other issues - we would make an impact.

I wonder too, what an impact even a few billion barrels per year would make? What would cause the speculators to blink and the other countries to open up drilling - just to keep US out of the market? where's the tipping point? It may not take much.

You are the one getting emotionally butthurt.

I understand how you could interpret that from my post. I do have a soft spot for the poor, the down and out, those that cannot adapt. Yet I am a right wing conservative, wow, go figure.

reason -
to think or argue in a logical manner.
to form conclusions, judgments, or inferences from facts or premises.

It's a message board and the section is called STS. Really, I did not think I was crafting arguments for peer review.

 

[Moxie]

Then maybe you should bring a sense of humor to the table.

Oh come on, I even looked up a glitter graphic for you.

If you are saying we do not have significant reserves in the hundreds of billions and even into the trillions (remember the shale) then that is a point worth talking about. Because surely if I only thought we had 21 billion bbl, then I would not think the way I do.

They estimate 135 billion barrels of undiscovered and recoverable oil, which doesn't count shales as that is a whole different ball game.

Coaxing oil from huge U.S. shale deposits