Greece

Kiopa_Matt

Banned
May 13, 2011
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Anyone else watching it unfold? What chaos. Even Tsipras doesn't seem to know what he's doing, and can't make a decision. Protests have started, which I'm assuming will turn into riots within a week. I guess let's see what happens on July 5th.

Thank fuck I didn't end up being Greek in this lifetime. 60 Euro/day capital controls? That would suck.

Fatbat, better watch out, Spain's on the list. So is Portugal and Italy.
 


Doesn't quite make sense to me. Maybe they're doing their math wrong. Modern day countries don't have these kinds of things happen. They need to get some real economists in there to solve these complex mathematical problems. I have hope.
 
I don't know, but I'm pretty sure it's the simple fact that the Greeks enjoyed a nice 30 year vacation, which just came to an end. Time to pay the bill.
 
It seems like they're screwed whether they vote Yes or No on Sunday.

Nobody knows what to do, both European and Greek leaders are mindfucked...

I really don't know what they can do to come up with that money, they've already cut out in some of the most basic services like 50% in healthcare. I was watching a documentary yesterday and it seems to me like their healthcare system is comparable to Somalia's right now.

Perhaps privatizing some of the country's historic monuments and opening up the tourism industry even more to foreign investors might be something to consider... I'm sure the Chinese would be ready to make it rain if that happens.

Speaking of the Chinese, the archnemesis of the IMF, the China-led AIIB, could pull out an epic move right now by opening up its arms to Greece...
China State Official Hints Beijing May Bailout Greece
 
I am tired of watching people acting like the world owe them a living. You elected idiots that made bad deals for decades and now you act surprised the bill collector is at the door.

The country needs structural adjustment on a massive scale. All the social spending must be paid by someone. I guess they ran out of private enterprise to tax.

I must confess that the few Greeks I had the privilege of knowing were nice beyond believe.

As an American, I fear when our bill collectors will come knocking at the door.
 
I wouldn't lose sleep over it, our debt related to total wealth isn't shit. We might have to sell off something in our inventory, but we'd wage economic war to make up for it against the collecting country.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_wealth

Based on the way America is structured, most of our present wealth is controlled by non-Americans. I have a feeling America was used as a laboratory to create a certain illusion of democracy and freedom.

Since the DOLLAR is still the dominant currency, the advantages built into that monetary system will not last forever.

Right now the so called rulers of the world, are finding it hard to come up with another type of currency to replace the Dollar.

I do agree we can destabilize any country with the temerity to demand prompt payment now, including so called China.

But having said all that, the magical persuasion of American politicians will soon run its course, and then what.

Never forget that the "HAND THAT GIVETH IS ALWAYS STRONGER THAN THE HAND THAT TAKETH"

Great empires from the past collapsed from internal decay, and borrowing too much money. Will the same happen to America? Only time will tell, but the symptoms are certainly present for all with eyes to see.
 
As other people here told several times - Greece harvests the fruits of 3 decades of idiocy, when taxpayers are considered losers and avoiding paying 90% of taxes while demanding subsidies from the government is a norm.

As for Greeks - common people are great, politicians and officials are corrrupted crooks. Well, it can be said about almost any other country - but Greece is the epitome in this.

Greece has great nature, great climate, lots of places for sightseeing, interesting cuisine - it can be one of the best European countries to spend vacation in. All they need to do is
a) stop corruption (through massive arests and confiscations of their officials or bloody protests - there is no other way as of now, unfortunately. If they receive another loan, they will spend it the same way as before, because same hands will hold the money)
b) start working instead of sitting in cafes all day long. Nobody cannot do it instead of them.

We'll see what happens.
 
Fucking country is gorgeous, I'd love to own some real estate there if they give us some Detroit-type pricing. lol

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Can I ask who the creditors are? Seems as though every country is in debt -- UK, Germany, Canada, Australia, China, Singapore, etc.

So if nobody has any money, who exactly is loaning every country all this money? I know it's IMF, ECB, etc.... but still, where are they getting the 100s of billions to throw around?
 
So if nobody has any money, who exactly is loaning every country all this money? I know it's IMF, ECB, etc.... but still, where are they getting the 100s of billions to throw around?

Negative Money (debt) is as virtual as positive money. The real power is...as always, power.
 
Can I ask who the creditors are? Seems as though every country is in debt -- UK, Germany, Canada, Australia, China, Singapore, etc.

So if nobody has any money, who exactly is loaning every country all this money? I know it's IMF, ECB, etc.... but still, where are they getting the 100s of billions to throw around?

If Germany HAD to repay all its debts by the end of the year, they could. We would have to cancel the entirety of our military and tell some slackers to suck it, but we could repay our debts no problem.

So which part of a balance sheet do you not understand? We borrow money cheap and lend it to greece at a premium. Thats how you make a profit.

Also, while keynesianism might not be the favourite economic theory flying around, its simple mathemtical fact that if the economy grows by 2%, and you borrow 2%, all you really did was liquidize your assets.


To put this in simpler terms for the simple person that you are:

If you buy a house and borrow money to do so, you are in debt but you arent broke. Even if you had the cash to buy the house, you might opt not to do so. Thats because theres something called opportunity cost - if you spend 300k on a house instead of borrowing it, you lose 300k buying power immediately.

The IMF is a supranational organization, funded by nobody in particular (in a legal sense) but in the end, the money flows out of countries like germany.

The ECB prints money. If they overdo it the euro goes down the shitter, so the amount of printing they do is based on the value of the european countries that are part of the union. Maybe not directly, but certainly implicitly.


And because this seems to be such a difficult concept for you to grasp:

Nobody is showing up somewhere with billions in cash and makes someone elses problem go away. Greece doesnt have anyone show up at their door demanding money. They dont have de-facto creditors the way you do. They sold bonds at some point that expire. Normally, expiring bonds are paid for by issuing new bonds for more money - because the economy grow over the past 30 years - this should be easy. Its not for greece. If we send them 300 billion euros, we dont give them 300 billion euros, we act as a trustee that guarantees that IF greece defaults in the future, we will pay their debts. In the same way your mother co-signs a 16 year olds first leise just in case he cant pay for some reason. This is not a problem for us in any way, because we wont allow greece to default. Greece wont ever default while theyre part of the union and if they leave the (monetary) union, they get their old currency back with a fixed euro exchange rate.

If that ever happens, we will fix their exchange rate, and force them to take back their debts, either directly or implicitly by fucking their new currency up.


To end this, ill explain it in terms of a show you probably watch. A Lannister always pays his debts. Nobody knwos how much money the lannisters have. And nobody ever cares, because a lannister always pays his debts. Its irrelevant whats happening on their backend, because their debts are paid. In the same way, it doesnt matter how much germany owes whom, because we always pay our debts. We pay them by acquiring newer, greater debt, but that is irrelevant. We are trusted.
 
I've been looking, and not many countries with a surplus. I guess you have Macau, Tuvalu, Kuwait, Brunei, and a few others. Everyone else in in debt though, and going further into it.

Who exactly is providing all these loans we constantly hear about? I'm assuming it's all fake money?
 
i just fucking explained it to you. you dont need a surplus to lend money.

in fact, german household legislation requires that all households be balanced. as in 0. we are legally required to not run any kind of surplus.
 
Can I ask who the creditors are? Seems as though every country is in debt -- UK, Germany, Canada, Australia, China, Singapore, etc.

So if nobody has any money, who exactly is loaning every country all this money? I know it's IMF, ECB, etc.... but still, where are they getting the 100s of billions to throw around?

The exact person loaning money is us through inflation. And we loan it with no possible way to make anything of our loan. So it's not even a legitimate loan. It's a forced tax through our participate in shitty currencies.

You do realize most money is debt. A dollar bill is created as debt, that's why it's called a "bill". You can only pay off a bill with more bills. The algorithm behind the currencies of the "civilized" world is an exponential wealth extraction algorithm. Why do you think so many people on WF are into gold and other currencies that are less prone to inflation?

And in case you missed it my earlier post was pure sarcasm. The people in Greece and the whole world get what they vote for. People love democracy. They love having Team A compete against Team B. They love creating and promoting systems which champion a winner and a loser, rather than a system that allows all people to win.

The people who go bankrupt deserve to go bankrupt. They are getting what they created. The few people who have any braincells left have protected themselves long ago. You are going to live life at the level that you create for yourself. And if you want to have government look after you then you're going to get the results of that.

Greece is just the tip of the iceberg. But none of that matters. We'll just keep inflating, people's will continue to lose wealth to the State, the State will continue to grow in power, we will think that we are becoming wealthier because of technological advancements, and we will have less and less freedom to exercise individual choice. The people absolutely love it and have no idea what I'm even talking about. Welcome to planet earth, grade level: -3rd.

Also, if you want to know my full take on the world money system here is a quite detailed infopage I created a few years back: An Idiot's Guide To The Federal Reserve SCAM | Truth Control
 
Quote re: Sunday's referendum:

“For those who want to vote yes Sunday, think about Greece’s dignity!” shouted Mr. Smailis, a clothing shop owner whose business has been ravaged by the crisis. “We must reject this and fight our creditors for a just outcome. If I was dead, I would climb from my grave to vote no!”

“If we do that, we’ll no longer belong to Europe,” retorted Spyros Pangiotopoulos, a government employee who had settled at the same table. “Greece doesn’t exist without Europe.”

“No,” Mr. Smailis persisted. “Europe won’t exist without Greece.”


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greece has been pretty much raped by the last bailouts.
imagine you are a business (restaurant for example sakes) bankruptcy is not possible
you owe 1 million dollars to the bank due tomorrow.
Your business earns about 100 000 per year so on 200 000 revenue there is no way you can make it back.

So you go to another bank (ECB) and they offer you another deal.

I repay your previous loan (imf and others) for you subject to these new conditions

you now owe me 1.2 Million, but in addition to that, for me to be sure, you can pay back this loan
you have to close down half your restaurant for power savings.
minimize opening times for 12 hours a day to 6 hours a day, and fire half your staff (gov employees) to reduce costs.
problem, your staff is your best customer, their friends, and family who they support are the regulars (taxes)

now you owe 1.2 million, earn only 50 thousand on 100 thousand revenue and have even less to pay back your loans.

my opinion go bankrupt and cut those ties to these banksters who are either really greedy or worse incompetent (guessung the former)