Indians vs Filipinos (software developers)
- Thread starter idanj
- Start date
I am looking for a good web developer. Can you recommend me a site where I can find someone of my needs?
I did add that you would have written good things if the experience was better. Just that, if you came across some stupids, we can't assume that every programmer in a billion plus people country is shitty. Anyways, no point in fighting over this. Hope you have a better luck with devs in future.
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Eastrern Europeans.
Have had nothing but bad experiences except one dealing with Indian and Filippino programmers and designers.
Latest one: Indian programmer agreed to install software on our server, Sir This, Yes SIr that, I have a team of programmers willing to work, send me more work yadda yadda. He then proceeds to tell me no problem sir, I am installing the software on your server as we speak, look later that day nothing done.
He disappears, and finally comes on the next day with an excuse his gradfather go away. (I smell BS from the beginning) I feel bad and ask if he is having one of his other programmers do this in his absense. He says no, its Diwalliwall or some festival, they will be away next week. I say it's Tuesday you have the rest of the week for this project.
He comes back with more excuses...needless to say the amount of BS Spewed was sickening. The amount of time he spent giving me BS excuses was more than what the work would have taken.
Hired a Romanian programmer, he had it done within a couple of Hours, and even found and fixed an error other outsourced Indian programmers made during previous projects that was causing issues.I vow to never, ever use an Indian programmer again.
I also have had bad experiences with Philippino outsourced programmers, you have to keep on them at all times, check their work constantly, very sloppy and unreliable In my experiences.
Go Romania, Russian or Eastern Europe!
Have had nothing but bad experiences except one dealing with Indian and Filippino programmers and designers.
Latest one: Indian programmer agreed to install software on our server, Sir This, Yes SIr that, I have a team of programmers willing to work, send me more work yadda yadda. He then proceeds to tell me no problem sir, I am installing the software on your server as we speak, look later that day nothing done.
He disappears, and finally comes on the next day with an excuse his gradfather go away. (I smell BS from the beginning) I feel bad and ask if he is having one of his other programmers do this in his absense. He says no, its Diwalliwall or some festival, they will be away next week. I say it's Tuesday you have the rest of the week for this project.
He comes back with more excuses...needless to say the amount of BS Spewed was sickening. The amount of time he spent giving me BS excuses was more than what the work would have taken.
Hired a Romanian programmer, he had it done within a couple of Hours, and even found and fixed an error other outsourced Indian programmers made during previous projects that was causing issues.I vow to never, ever use an Indian programmer again.
I also have had bad experiences with Philippino outsourced programmers, you have to keep on them at all times, check their work constantly, very sloppy and unreliable In my experiences.
Go Romania, Russian or Eastern Europe!
Go with Vietnamese.
I've had very good experience with Eastern European developers and an AMAZING experience with a Vietnamese C++ development firm.
In fact I just hired another Vietnamese developer who is independent who does Flash, AJAX, and PHP work and once again the quality is excellent.
Friendly, competent, and competitively priced. I am absolutely amazed at the high quality of service I've gotten from Vietnamese guys.
I've had very good experience with Eastern European developers and an AMAZING experience with a Vietnamese C++ development firm.
In fact I just hired another Vietnamese developer who is independent who does Flash, AJAX, and PHP work and once again the quality is excellent.
Friendly, competent, and competitively priced. I am absolutely amazed at the high quality of service I've gotten from Vietnamese guys.
I will recommend a Filipino of course, because I am a Filipino. 
The Philippines is one of the world's most popular outsourcing destinations with some distinct advantages over countries like India and China, but I need to admit that in this kind of business you will meet people who just pretending to be the best. You can meet this kind of person not only in the Philippines but all over the world.
Outsourcing is a business that trust is the first requirement. Business won't grow if you haven't trusted the company that you're working with. This business has it pros and cons, you just need to find the right company, ask for samples and client references so you can decide. You need to be careful and look for the reputable ones. I suggest to hire a Staff leasing company instead of a freelancer because leased staff are permanent workers of a company and are easy to reach in case you need them. Freelancers do not have employers so they do as they please and sometimes cannot be contacted for various reasons.
A firm/company assigned shift supervisors to manage their staff and ensure utmost productivity and quality of work. Also,
the staff is backed up by a good management and technical team. Your files and data are secured and confidential.
The Philippines is one of the world's most popular outsourcing destinations with some distinct advantages over countries like India and China, but I need to admit that in this kind of business you will meet people who just pretending to be the best. You can meet this kind of person not only in the Philippines but all over the world. Outsourcing is a business that trust is the first requirement. Business won't grow if you haven't trusted the company that you're working with. This business has it pros and cons, you just need to find the right company, ask for samples and client references so you can decide. You need to be careful and look for the reputable ones. I suggest to hire a Staff leasing company instead of a freelancer because leased staff are permanent workers of a company and are easy to reach in case you need them. Freelancers do not have employers so they do as they please and sometimes cannot be contacted for various reasons.
A firm/company assigned shift supervisors to manage their staff and ensure utmost productivity and quality of work. Also,
the staff is backed up by a good management and technical team. Your files and data are secured and confidential.
I will not recommend one. Hire a Filipino or Eastern European.
This doesn't mean Indians are bad Programmers. They are one of the best. At least there are a few hundred times the number of Good programmers in India than the closest competitors. Problem is that, India has grown, in the past decade, on the back of the IT outsourcing industry, and the industry is one of the largest employers today.
So anybody who can code a simple stored proc, or an update statement, will get him a very well respected job, so all the "good programmer" are already employed. It is not uncommon for a programmer with a couple of years of experience to have 3-4 job offers if he happens to look out. Keep an employee is the biggest challenge for a company and its managers today.
So what you see on elance and stuff the bottom rung of the programming hierarchy, so to speak. I won't hire them.
Microsoft, Amazon, Ebay, Google, Sun, Cisco, Oracle employs a lot of Indians..
Good Indian programmers. I heard that some of them started a few companies too..
But of course, you won't get to hire them.
/thread
This doesn't mean Indians are bad Programmers. They are one of the best. At least there are a few hundred times the number of Good programmers in India than the closest competitors. Problem is that, India has grown, in the past decade, on the back of the IT outsourcing industry, and the industry is one of the largest employers today.
So anybody who can code a simple stored proc, or an update statement, will get him a very well respected job, so all the "good programmer" are already employed. It is not uncommon for a programmer with a couple of years of experience to have 3-4 job offers if he happens to look out. Keep an employee is the biggest challenge for a company and its managers today.
So what you see on elance and stuff the bottom rung of the programming hierarchy, so to speak. I won't hire them.
Microsoft, Amazon, Ebay, Google, Sun, Cisco, Oracle employs a lot of Indians..
Good Indian programmers. I heard that some of them started a few companies too..
But of course, you won't get to hire them.
/thread
If anyone is interested i have a kick ass .NET developer available in India. He just moved from the DFW area back to India to chill and be closer with his kids to the family.
Doesn't need to work and isn't really looking, but I know he is getting bored, so if you have a cool project and need a U.S. PMP etc. he might be worth pinging. Worked with him for 8 years here in the U.S. but won't come 'that' cheap.
Having said all of that and experienced VA's from both countries I've got to say this:
If you need any high quality articles or communication work done stay in the U.S.. You'd be amazed what kind of people you will find on craigslist, elance, odesk that are willing to work inexpensively. Try to tap into your local mom network and you'd be amazed at the talent available, thirsting for the opportunity, to work a couple hours from home and feel like a real human being again. Also, a lot of out of work folks, wanting to keep their skills sharp are available fairly cheaply.
Also, some starving programmers are always looking for work. Especially while they are looking for full time work to have an opportunity to make some quick cash.
It really helps having a personality, while talking to these folks on the phone and building a rapport. Interesting projects are a huge plus as well. You'd be surprised how many people have NO idea about AM etc. etc. and would love to learn and slash their rates to do so.
India: Some of my best friends are Indian but their market has changed dramatically over the last several years. The time of 'Great to good' cheap labor is over. The huge infotech companies have corralled the market on that and its really hard finding good free lancers. In addition you'll have the 'yes - complex' others here have alluded to already.
"Can you build me a 4 lane highway to the moon by tomorrow afternoon?" - "Yes, sir we can but may I humbly request an extra $200 in pay?"
Also, you have to deal with a huge turnover rate since they jump jobs like crazy. However, if you catch a good fresher right out of college living in a 3rd tier city you might get lucky.
All in all - it's a crapshot and not worth saving $100 in all of the extra aggravations and emails you'll be sending. If you want to stay with India try to find a small IT company with 10-20+ employees.
Pinoys are as well educated, smart as Indians and are much closer to the U.S. way of life. Mostly catholic and some good people are to be found over there. While you still have somewhat of a language barrier they are much easier to work with. Got someone working for me full time for a year now and have to say I got 'lucky'.
With Eastern Europeans you will have some more language problems but those guys are 'usually' technically sound and work like dogs.
Don't want to drone on and on - just realized I might write up a longer post for WF about this - but you get what you pay for.
Quick suggestion: When interviewing folks online give them 10 questions that require a bit of research and work. Only folks that are truly interested in the job will answer and you can determine a LOT about quality from that.
Here are some sample questions for a VA for instance:
a) Who is the Quarterback for the Tampa Bay Bucs and what is his current TD/INT ratio?
b) What are the most popular programs currently available to edit pictures and videos?
c) What are the top 5 keywords people use to search for photo editing software?
d) What are your top 5 Wordpress plug ins and why?
e) If I would ask you for 3 wordpress themes that would fit a country western site which would you recommend? How about a fitness site for women?
f) In 100 words: What about this job interests you? How do you think you can contribute?
You'd be surprised the answers you get back.
a) will tell you if they can do basic research and how much U.S. lingo they understand.
b) How up to date are they
c) How much actual SEO do they know
d) What do they know about wordpress
e) Can they think on their feet and actually have an opinion?
f) Gives them an opportunity to sell themselves.
Change the questions for whatever subject or skill your interviewing for.
The top 15% become clear very quickly and you can start interviewing from there. Saves you a lot of 'BULLSHIT' time... trust me!
In closing: Negotiate, Negotiate, Negotiate
Don't take the first number they throw at you... haggle like your life depends on it... (It does!)
Doesn't need to work and isn't really looking, but I know he is getting bored, so if you have a cool project and need a U.S. PMP etc. he might be worth pinging. Worked with him for 8 years here in the U.S. but won't come 'that' cheap.
Having said all of that and experienced VA's from both countries I've got to say this:
If you need any high quality articles or communication work done stay in the U.S.. You'd be amazed what kind of people you will find on craigslist, elance, odesk that are willing to work inexpensively. Try to tap into your local mom network and you'd be amazed at the talent available, thirsting for the opportunity, to work a couple hours from home and feel like a real human being again. Also, a lot of out of work folks, wanting to keep their skills sharp are available fairly cheaply.
Also, some starving programmers are always looking for work. Especially while they are looking for full time work to have an opportunity to make some quick cash.
It really helps having a personality, while talking to these folks on the phone and building a rapport. Interesting projects are a huge plus as well. You'd be surprised how many people have NO idea about AM etc. etc. and would love to learn and slash their rates to do so.
India: Some of my best friends are Indian but their market has changed dramatically over the last several years. The time of 'Great to good' cheap labor is over. The huge infotech companies have corralled the market on that and its really hard finding good free lancers. In addition you'll have the 'yes - complex' others here have alluded to already.
"Can you build me a 4 lane highway to the moon by tomorrow afternoon?" - "Yes, sir we can but may I humbly request an extra $200 in pay?"
Also, you have to deal with a huge turnover rate since they jump jobs like crazy. However, if you catch a good fresher right out of college living in a 3rd tier city you might get lucky.
All in all - it's a crapshot and not worth saving $100 in all of the extra aggravations and emails you'll be sending. If you want to stay with India try to find a small IT company with 10-20+ employees.
Pinoys are as well educated, smart as Indians and are much closer to the U.S. way of life. Mostly catholic and some good people are to be found over there. While you still have somewhat of a language barrier they are much easier to work with. Got someone working for me full time for a year now and have to say I got 'lucky'.
With Eastern Europeans you will have some more language problems but those guys are 'usually' technically sound and work like dogs.
Don't want to drone on and on - just realized I might write up a longer post for WF about this - but you get what you pay for.
Quick suggestion: When interviewing folks online give them 10 questions that require a bit of research and work. Only folks that are truly interested in the job will answer and you can determine a LOT about quality from that.
Here are some sample questions for a VA for instance:
a) Who is the Quarterback for the Tampa Bay Bucs and what is his current TD/INT ratio?
b) What are the most popular programs currently available to edit pictures and videos?
c) What are the top 5 keywords people use to search for photo editing software?
d) What are your top 5 Wordpress plug ins and why?
e) If I would ask you for 3 wordpress themes that would fit a country western site which would you recommend? How about a fitness site for women?
f) In 100 words: What about this job interests you? How do you think you can contribute?
You'd be surprised the answers you get back.
a) will tell you if they can do basic research and how much U.S. lingo they understand.
b) How up to date are they
c) How much actual SEO do they know
d) What do they know about wordpress
e) Can they think on their feet and actually have an opinion?
f) Gives them an opportunity to sell themselves.
Change the questions for whatever subject or skill your interviewing for.
The top 15% become clear very quickly and you can start interviewing from there. Saves you a lot of 'BULLSHIT' time... trust me!
In closing: Negotiate, Negotiate, Negotiate
Don't take the first number they throw at you... haggle like your life depends on it... (It does!)
+rep
Another goldmine I've found is students, I'm not talking about college students either. I'm talking about kids still in high school. A lot of labor laws out there make it hard for them to find part time work (I think in Australia you need to be something like 15 and a half years old) and when they do the pay sucks big time.
I contacted a few schools that are known to have good IT departments and told them what I am looking for. It's a good opportunity for the kids to get real world experience and they are hungry as fuck to learn. (for example I needed some wordpress plugins made up and this kid had no experience in that area at all. Within a couple of weeks he was up to snuff and pounding out all the work I could give him). Be on the lookout for kids who are at good private schools on scholarships, I've had two of these guys in the past and they've both been exceptional (wanting to put food on the table for their family etc).
It's taken awhile but I've got good relationships with about 7 different teachers now, they can use the opportunities I present as motivation for their students and they get to help out the future as well. One of the teachers even does work for me as well when teaching is getting on his nerves.
Fucking Indians are Fucking pathetic if you buy them cheap.. If you want to have some fucking awesome work, spend more than $4/hr..
Fuckin whites want cheap work and want quality.. if you want that go to bed and scratch ur balls
But I believe Indians are good not because I am indian but because i've outsourced to filipinos..
Though South Africans are better than Indians
Fuckin whites want cheap work and want quality.. if you want that go to bed and scratch ur balls
But I believe Indians are good not because I am indian but because i've outsourced to filipinos..
Though South Africans are better than Indians
Fucking Indians are Fucking pathetic if you buy them cheap.. If you want to have some fucking awesome work, spend more than $4/hr..
Fuckin whites want cheap work and want quality.. if you want that go to bed and scratch ur balls
But I believe Indians are good not because I am indian but because i've outsourced to filipinos..
Though South Africans are better than Indians
You sound like a total douchee in this post. Also, Is 'Fuck' the latest word you have learnt?
If Indians are fucking, You are the most fucked up guy. If whites are fucking, Your all clients are fucked up.
Similar to the experience that many of you guys had. I have worked with dozens of people in the Philippines and also outsourced to India, Pakistan, US, Canada, Russia and eastern europe and several other countries.
I have NEVER ONCE had a good experience in India. This is not because there are not good Indian programmers. Actually there are shit hot Indian programmers, but you don't find them on Elance, Odesk, Rentacoder etc. You find them at IIT working for IBM and Google. If you try to hire online you will end up with a totally second rate person.
The Philippines has great programmers but Russia and Eastern europe has even better programmers.
Try using services like Odesk, Vworker or Freelancer.com to hire contractors and use software like Time Doctor to manage a full time team.
Saying "just get a programmer in the US"
This is ok, but I have tried hiring in the US and salaries are FIVE to TEN TIMES HIGHER!!!!
If you are a little guy you can't afford to pay someone $8000 per month when you can get someone great in eastern europe for $1500 per month or the Philippines for $800 per month.
I have NEVER ONCE had a good experience in India. This is not because there are not good Indian programmers. Actually there are shit hot Indian programmers, but you don't find them on Elance, Odesk, Rentacoder etc. You find them at IIT working for IBM and Google. If you try to hire online you will end up with a totally second rate person.
The Philippines has great programmers but Russia and Eastern europe has even better programmers.
Try using services like Odesk, Vworker or Freelancer.com to hire contractors and use software like Time Doctor to manage a full time team.
Saying "just get a programmer in the US"
This is ok, but I have tried hiring in the US and salaries are FIVE to TEN TIMES HIGHER!!!!
If you are a little guy you can't afford to pay someone $8000 per month when you can get someone great in eastern europe for $1500 per month or the Philippines for $800 per month.
Could not agree more with everything said here. They taught me that you always get what you pay for.
Do what john reese did go there and set up and office and get it done asap instead of dealing with excuses, etc.. If you cant go there hire a firm instead of 4-5 freelancers
Letting go of your online friends by John Reese
Letting go of your online friends by John Reese
for russians/ukrainians/easterneuro, watch out for your code being "repackaged" and sold through different markets