SO CONSTITUTIONAL
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Actually, it's private bars contracting with a private data-collection company, so it's completely Constitutional. I was expecting to get to the part where the municipality had mandated this measure or something.
No way in hell I'd patronize these establishments, though. Charge me triple for beer, and collect and share data without assurance that it won't fall into the wrong hands? Fuck off. I'll go somewhere else.
No way in hell I'd patronize these establishments, though. Charge me triple for beer, and collect and share data without assurance that it won't fall into the wrong hands? Fuck off. I'll go somewhere else.
we have that in London, they take your ID and scan it on a machine, on the way in you can see your id card scanned on their machine, and goes away after 10 seconds or so.
A part of me feels a bit like livestock being stamped and herded, I don't like the fact that they have all my details. On the flipside I'm not the kinda guy who goes out and gets in a fight, I know that in some bars fights can kick off at any time, and people can get killed in bars and clubs.
Say if a bunch of thungs knock out somebody unconscious and leg it outside of the club, and the bouncers are unable to catch them, then you'd want the police to be able to look through the CCTV, go backwards into the information to when these thugs walked into the bar, discover their identities based on what was scanned onto the computer and go after them
A part of me feels a bit like livestock being stamped and herded, I don't like the fact that they have all my details. On the flipside I'm not the kinda guy who goes out and gets in a fight, I know that in some bars fights can kick off at any time, and people can get killed in bars and clubs.
Say if a bunch of thungs knock out somebody unconscious and leg it outside of the club, and the bouncers are unable to catch them, then you'd want the police to be able to look through the CCTV, go backwards into the information to when these thugs walked into the bar, discover their identities based on what was scanned onto the computer and go after them
I see the British propaganda on how the cameras and other surveillance is there for *your protection*, as opposed to a way of keeping tabs on the population, is working and turned you into a complacent fool.
i dont mind of the governemtn keeps tabs on me, have nothing to hide, as long as they're keeping tabs on the drug dealers and rapists as well, im cool with that
In what way would a freely elected government benefit itself by simply "keeping tabs" on the population? What's the motive there?
+1
if you've done nothing wrong, you've nothing to hide
oh noes, yanks and their civil liberties. the federal government are out to get me, 9/11 was an inside job, i'd prefer to be blown up on a plane than be searched by the TSA, wah wah wah.
They have this in Vancouver and it's suburbs too, it's called Bar Watch, and the data is shared between all the bars that participate in the program. It keeps gang banger knuckleheads who just come out to fight, who carry weapons, who harass women, out of the bars. Security guards are also equipped with hand held metal detectors and reserve the right to search people's bags. It's not a bad thing given the propensity of these assholes to start shooting inside packed nightclubs.
The program came under scrutiny a few years back from the government who thought it might violate privacy laws, but I can't find what its current status is and if it's still operational or not. I know it has the backing of the local police departments though.
The premises are private property and IMO they can do whatever the fuck they want to control who comes in. If you don't like it, don't frequent these establishments.
The program came under scrutiny a few years back from the government who thought it might violate privacy laws, but I can't find what its current status is and if it's still operational or not. I know it has the backing of the local police departments though.
The premises are private property and IMO they can do whatever the fuck they want to control who comes in. If you don't like it, don't frequent these establishments.
This is the prevailing attitude over here, and it makes me despair of this country.
Nearly every authoritarian regime has started "for your protection" in some form or another. Every surveillance technology has been subject to mission creep.
The RIP act has been used by councils to spy on people who use rubbish dumps, so they can be fined if they're not recycling. Yeah, that's catching criminals.
You're dead right, you have nothing to fear if you've done nothing wrong. But whose standards of wrong are we using? Mine? Yours?
No, of course not - the government's.
@jenkzc You're right - Britain is full of complacent idiots. People who spend more time reading gossip magazines and watching x-factor than they do being concerned about the slow destruction of anything worthwhile.
However.. I suspect the US is no better on the whole. This board is not a representative sample.
Oh, and as for the "ID scanners". I have a cancelled credit card that doesn't even belong to me (it was a company card issued to an employee of a previous business I owned).
I've been feeding it to the scanners for months to see what happens. The answer = nothing. They aren't connected up to any sort of database. It's what Bruce Schneier calls "security theater".
whether you like it or not if you live in a densely populated city like London, you NEED surveillance, it's a city of 7.8 million people, it's so populated that chances are someone you see today, you will never see again in your life. At least you won't remember them.
During caveman times, everyone had a tribe, if someone from a different tribe or village ventured into yours, you remembered him and roughly knew where he came from. You had an idea of who his father is and knew that he the kid steeped out of line and raped one of your daughters you knew exactly who to go to, to seek justice/revenge.
In modern built up cities, you just don't have that any more. If there were no CCTVs it would be so easy to commit crimes as a hobby, just beat people up and gtfo, nobody would give a shit.. incidentally that's exactly what happens in council estates because there are no cameras to record stuff/indetify people/keep a vigilante eye/gather evidence to prosecute.
Ever seen a mugging or a fight in oxford street? never becaue you won't be able to last 1 minute before undercover police pick you up on the streets and throw you into a van.
If there were no CCTVs London would easily turn into the slums of rio de Janeiro.
And that's exactly what happened during the London riots, but unlike rio de janerio, the police used CCTV footage to analyse exactly what was going on, how they were behaving, came up with a plan to curb the riots and then track down 3000 of the rioters.
CCTV stops sane people from being criminals, sure there are insane people that dont give a fuck and will stab you even if there are a 100 cameras around. But that was never the goal of CCTV, and CCTV should not be seen as a substitute forbeign vigilant and being able to handle yourself on the street.
You don't see the advantages of CCTV becasue you've never been behind the scenes doing policework. If you had you would realise that without CCTV all these major cities would be infested with criminals in every corner.
During caveman times, everyone had a tribe, if someone from a different tribe or village ventured into yours, you remembered him and roughly knew where he came from. You had an idea of who his father is and knew that he the kid steeped out of line and raped one of your daughters you knew exactly who to go to, to seek justice/revenge.
In modern built up cities, you just don't have that any more. If there were no CCTVs it would be so easy to commit crimes as a hobby, just beat people up and gtfo, nobody would give a shit.. incidentally that's exactly what happens in council estates because there are no cameras to record stuff/indetify people/keep a vigilante eye/gather evidence to prosecute.
Ever seen a mugging or a fight in oxford street? never becaue you won't be able to last 1 minute before undercover police pick you up on the streets and throw you into a van.
If there were no CCTVs London would easily turn into the slums of rio de Janeiro.
And that's exactly what happened during the London riots, but unlike rio de janerio, the police used CCTV footage to analyse exactly what was going on, how they were behaving, came up with a plan to curb the riots and then track down 3000 of the rioters.
CCTV stops sane people from being criminals, sure there are insane people that dont give a fuck and will stab you even if there are a 100 cameras around. But that was never the goal of CCTV, and CCTV should not be seen as a substitute forbeign vigilant and being able to handle yourself on the street.
You don't see the advantages of CCTV becasue you've never been behind the scenes doing policework. If you had you would realise that without CCTV all these major cities would be infested with criminals in every corner.
I don't think anyone in this thread is against metal detectors, and bag searches. Dress code also helps keep knuckleheads out.
Scanning ID's on the other hand... you have a system managed by people with no background checks or security clearance, being entrusted with copies of your ID which contain more than enough information to commit identify theft... that I've got a problem with. If the tech only stored the DL # or photo, then I wouldn't have a problem with it. Security guards are about as trustworthy as a pedophile teaching kindergarten.
The whole "I'm not doing anything wrong so I have nothing to hide" argument is complete fucking bullshit.
Not doing anything wrong, nothing to worry about right? So let them set up all these surveillance programs. Let them enact Patriot Acts. Military Commissions acts. Let them erase privacy and erode liberty. I've got no problem with random thermal scans of my home. GPS trackers on my vehicles. Indiscriminate audio surveillance. So on and so forth.
Hey, I'm not breaking any laws.
Sure...not yet.
Now what happens when the government's definition of a criminal changes from that of your own? This is what you need to worry about. What the government considers a crime can change at any instant, but their methods of detection and prosecution won't. Especially in the days of executive orders and a government who likes to use fear to pass legislation. Will your stance be the same when it becomes illegal to read Huxley, Orwell, or Bradbury?
I would much rather tend to the problems that come with too much liberty.
By that logic every major city was a crime infested slum until CCTV was invented. I see the Crowns propaganda machine has been quite effective across the pond.
Do you know someone who travels and uses a pre-paid phone? TERRORIST!
Not doing anything wrong, nothing to worry about right? So let them set up all these surveillance programs. Let them enact Patriot Acts. Military Commissions acts. Let them erase privacy and erode liberty. I've got no problem with random thermal scans of my home. GPS trackers on my vehicles. Indiscriminate audio surveillance. So on and so forth.
Hey, I'm not breaking any laws.
Sure...not yet.
Now what happens when the government's definition of a criminal changes from that of your own? This is what you need to worry about. What the government considers a crime can change at any instant, but their methods of detection and prosecution won't. Especially in the days of executive orders and a government who likes to use fear to pass legislation. Will your stance be the same when it becomes illegal to read Huxley, Orwell, or Bradbury?
I would much rather tend to the problems that come with too much liberty.
By that logic every major city was a crime infested slum until CCTV was invented. I see the Crowns propaganda machine has been quite effective across the pond.
Do you know someone who travels and uses a pre-paid phone? TERRORIST!
LOL. NYC (8 million) doesn't appear to be the slums of rio de janiero.
They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.
Move along citizen. baaah.
...for once me and amateursurgeon agree.
LOL. bahh.
I don't have too much of a problem with clubs etc keeping tabs. There are plenty of cunts out there, and the information is kept with them, rather than shared with the government. (except in the event of a crime happening where the police have to be brought in). I can't say I'm totally happy with it, but it's not too bad. I've got more problems with stuff like this:
LiveLeak.com - Caught on film and stored on database: how police keep tabs on activists
LiveLeak.com - Caught on film and stored on database: how police keep tabs on activists