EPA Good or Bad? Fracking Pollution Found

[WickedJoe]

The EPA has found a link between hydro-fracking and ground water pollution.

APNewsBreak: EPA theorizes fracking-pollution link - Yahoo! News

I'm wondering what you guys think about the EPA.

• Keep the EPA - It helps protect us. Gov is sometimes useful.
• Get rid of the EPA - Government fucks absolutely everything up.

 

[BluAffiliate]

The EPA has found a link between hydro-fracking and ground water pollution.

APNewsBreak: EPA theorizes fracking-pollution link - Yahoo! News

I'm wondering what you guys think about the EPA.

• Keep the EPA - It helps protect us. Gov is sometimes useful.
• Get rid of the EPA - Government fucks absolutely everything up.

Yeah, see there's the problem with politics these days. Really, your only options are either to get rid of it or keep it? No middle ground?

 

[lukep]

All government = Bad Government.

But as long as we're stuck with the worst stuff (Corporate control) then I guess I'm not going to lose sleep with the EPA Sticking around, doing an occasional good and all...

 

[REIMktg]

Anything the Govt can do to avoid the US from drilling its own.

This is why we have to take oil from other countries, no one will let us drill our own. Ya think the defense industry is behind this?

and screw the epa and their rrp rules - eliminates equity, reduces home prices, puts small contractors out of business, puts landlords out of business, gotta love it.

 

[Moxie]

Anything the Govt can do to avoid the US from drilling its own.

This is why we have to take oil from other countries, no one will let us drill our own.

The US drills over 5.5 million barrels a day, about 500,000 more than in 2008. Oil companies own millions of acres in the US that they are free to develop if they wish. Even if they went all out on drilling for US oil, we would still need lots from other countries.

I believe I've pointed this out to you before at least once and linked to sources, but keep drinking the Rush Limbaugh/Sarah Palin Kool Aid if you wish. :xmas-smiley-022:

 

[REIMktg]

The US drills over 5.5 million barrels a day, about 500,000 more than in 2008. Oil companies own millions of acres in the US that they are free to develop if they wish. Even if they went all out on drilling for US oil, we would still need lots from other countries.

I believe I've pointed this out to you before at least once and linked to sources, but keep drinking the Rush Limbaugh/Sarah Palin Kool Aid if you wish. :xmas-smiley-022:

First off, let the oil companies drill where they want to drill, not where the anti-drilling Govt wants to let them drill.

Second, I was more interested in the general point that the Govt hinders business and that the EPA and other govt agencies make getting energy more expensive than necessary. And if you think a 10% increase in drilled barrels over the same time period where the underlying commodity went up in price from $60 per barrel to over $100 per barrel - I mean really, you think that they would not have increased production more if they were allowed to?

I have also pointed out, to you, which you must have forgotten, that the US has more energy. Was it the EPA that stopped that solar company from putting panels up in the Mojave to save some Turtle. OK maybe not the EPA , but some similar BS Agency.

You can tell me to drink the Kool Aid, which is actually quite good, but the fact is that if we opened up energy development and removed EPA rules we would see a tremendous boon to the economy as Gas prices shoot back down to $0.72 a gallon and disposable income of the spenders, the middle class, increases instantly.

Lets not start down this road. You think the world is finite and nothing can be worked out. I think we could work everything out in a flash.

 

[DocApocalypto]

inb4 75 page treatise lifted from mises.org ZZZZZzzzzzzz

 

[-Shady]

I watched a film on hydraulic fracking a few months ago at school and it was quite good. If anyone wants real facts and wants to learn more about it I advise checking it out.
Gasland: A film by Josh Fox
(No, this isn't some spam message to promote "my own" movie.)

 

[joshman1204]

I own an automotive paint and body business and all I can say is .... FUCK EPA!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[WickedJoe]

I watched a film on hydraulic fracking a few months ago at school and it was quite good. If anyone wants real facts and wants to learn more about it I advise checking it out.
Gasland: A film by Josh Fox
(No, this isn't some spam message to promote "my own" movie.)

I assumed most knew about this subject (hydraulic fracking). But for those who don't, you really should see the movie this guy talks about. It might be on Netflix.. and it's definitely on torrents.

 

[Moxie]

First off, let the oil companies drill where they want to drill, not where the anti-drilling Govt wants to let them drill.

So the government not forcing the public to turn over parks and wildlife refuges to oil companies makes the government anti-drilling? This is the same government that is allowing them to drill MILLIONS OF BARRELS EACH DAY and is not preventing them from drilling on millions of acres that they were already allowed to purchase/lease.

These aren't just land acres as they have 29 million acres in the Gulf that they could develop if they want. They and you apparently won't be satisfied though unless they have free reign to drill on any inch of land in the US that they so choose to.

I mean really, you think that they would not have increased production more if they were allowed to?

There are no limits on the amount they can drill, just like a potato farmer can grow as many potatoes as he wants. The potato farmer can't go farm on public wildlife refuges either though.

You can tell me to drink the Kool Aid, which is actually quite good, but the fact is that if we opened up energy development and removed EPA rules we would see a tremendous boon to the economy as Gas prices shoot back down to $0.72 a gallon and disposable income of the spenders, the middle class, increases instantly.

Drilling the ANWR and more offshore drilling would lower the price by pennies and that would take 15+ years.

Will More Drilling Mean Cheaper Gas? - TIME
Can Offshore Drilling Really Make the U.S. Oil Independent?: Scientific American

Lets not start down this road. You think the world is finite and nothing can be worked out. I think we could work everything out in a flash.

Well go ahead and present your groundbreaking research about 72 cent gas to congress or something lol.

 

[REIMktg]

So the government not forcing the public to turn over parks and wildlife refuges to oil companies makes the government anti-drilling? This is the same government that is allowing them to drill MILLIONS OF BARRELS EACH DAY and is not preventing them from drilling on millions of acres that they were already allowed to purchase/lease.

These aren't just land acres as they have 29 million acres in the Gulf that they could develop if they want. They and you apparently won't be satisfied though unless they have free reign to drill on any inch of land in the US that they so choose to.

There are no limits on the amount they can drill, just like a potato farmer can grow as many potatoes as he wants. The potato farmer can't go farm on public wildlife refuges either though.

Drilling the ANWR and more offshore drilling would lower the price by pennies and that would take 15+ years.

Will More Drilling Mean Cheaper Gas? - TIME
Can Offshore Drilling Really Make the U.S. Oil Independent?: Scientific American

Well go ahead and present your groundbreaking research about 72 cent gas to congress or something lol.

All of these have been hashed over in previous threads, even your pennies argument.

We will never agree.

 

[Moxie]

What Energy Problem? U.S. Oil Exports Are on the Rise | US - Yahoo! Finance

February was the third month out of four that the U.S. -- the world's most energy-hungry nation -- actually exported more oil that it imported.

Despite the notion that the U.S. is currently hugely reliant on foreign oil, the country sold 34,000 more barrels of petroleum products a day than it imported in November 2010. And, in both December and February, the U.S. sold 54,000 more barrels a day. Net imports have not been negative for nearly two decades.

All of these have been hashed over in previous threads, even your pennies argument.

It's not anyone's argument, it's what the numbers say when everyone looks into it. Feel free to link to any study or analysis that says otherwise.

The US only has about 3% of the world's oil and a lot of it is much harder to get to than in the middle east. US drilling can only affect worldwide supplies so much.

We will never agree.

I haven't stated any opinions and am just passing along the known information, while you are just parroting ignorance from Limbaugh or whoever. Ignorance probably isn't the right word as people like him purposely make no effort to look into the actual details. If he claims that we can get oil down to 72 cents a gallon, much of his audience will sheepishly accept it as the truth just because he said so; he doesn't have to worry about citing a source.

 

[REIMktg]

What Energy Problem? U.S. Oil Exports Are on the Rise | US - Yahoo! Finance

February was the third month out of four that the U.S. -- the world's most energy-hungry nation -- actually exported more oil that it imported.

Despite the notion that the U.S. is currently hugely reliant on foreign oil, the country sold 34,000 more barrels of petroleum products a day than it imported in November 2010. And, in both December and February, the U.S. sold 54,000 more barrels a day. Net imports have not been negative for nearly two decades.

It's not anyone's argument, it's what the numbers say when everyone looks into it. Feel free to link to any study or analysis that says otherwise.

The US only has about 3% of the world's oil and a lot of it is much harder to get to than in the middle east. US drilling can only affect worldwide supplies so much.


I haven't stated any opinions and am just passing along the known information, while you are just parroting ignorance from Limbaugh or whoever. Ignorance probably isn't the right word as people like him purposely make no effort to look into the actual details. If he claims that we can get oil down to 72 cents a gallon, much of his audience will sheepishly accept it as the truth just because he said so; he doesn't have to worry about citing a source.

Dude, you are crazy.

Find me the day Limbaugh said it would be $0.72 a gallon again. I am not parroting anyone. Before you throw out a claim like that, you should know that what I have said, they have said also. But you cannot.

Oil Prices: Oil Market Fundamentals vs. Speculation | SNHU

Speculation Does Not Explain High Oil and Gasoline Prices? Please!! | ZeroHedge

Oil Market Speculation Argument to be Tested by WTI Rollover Cycle | ZeroHedge

I can quote a thousand articles from more even reputable sources. These were just the top of the Google search results. You can disagree about my argument of oil prices being related to speculation, but you cannot say it is not a hotly debated topic between individuals that know far more than you or I.

So when throwing down with me, don't assume anything. Unlike most around here, I freely admit when I am wrong and I freely enter all discussions humbly, knowing that I may be wrong. But in the future, don't frame your arguments assuming that I am "parroting ignorance".

 

[jeffrey]

Some gas companies started fracking in PA over the past year or so and the water quality has gone to shit. I partly own a cabin in the north part of the state that is roughly 2 miles away from some of these sites and it's bad. The creeks smell like chemicals and some places have had to revamp their filtration systems to remove these chemicals from drinking water. The solution is to find a better way to retrieve these natural resources. Fracking is both beneficial and harmful to those directly affected by it.

 

[Moxie]

Dude, you are crazy.

Find me the day Limbaugh said it would be $0.72 a gallon again.

You might be the one with either mental or reading comprehension problems if you didn't realize I was just using that as an example of the type of thing that he or others often say which gets accepted as fact. Myths such as "drill baby drill, no more foreign oil, cheap oil, durr hurr" often start at the "top" and then trickle their way down.

I am not parroting anyone.

So by yourself you found a study or did your own, but you can't show us or link to it, and just by coincidence it backs up the political "drill baby drill" emotional appeal marketing slogan?

Oil Prices: Oil Market Fundamentals vs. Speculation | SNHU

Speculation Does Not Explain High Oil and Gasoline Prices? Please!! | ZeroHedge

Oil Market Speculation Argument to be Tested by WTI Rollover Cycle | ZeroHedge

I can quote a thousand articles from more even reputable sources. These were just the top of the Google search results. You can disagree about my argument of oil prices being related to speculation, but you cannot say it is not a hotly debated topic between individuals that know far more than you or I.

Nobody was denying that multiple things can affect oil prices, but none of those links show how more drilling in the US would lower prices to the extent that you say.

So when throwing down with me, don't assume anything. Unlike most around here, I freely admit when I am wrong and I freely enter all discussions humbly, knowing that I may be wrong. But in the future, don't frame your arguments assuming that I am "parroting ignorance".

"This is why we have to take oil from other countries, no one will let us drill our own."


That was the sentence that caused me to reply and anyone that honestly looks into the issue knows it is false. Instead of admitting you were wrong, you added fuel to the fire by saying the price could be brought down to 72 cents a gallon.

 

[REIMktg]

So by yourself you found a study or did your own, but you can't show us or link to it, and just by coincidence it backs up the political "drill baby drill" emotional appeal marketing slogan?

We currently produce 87% of the oil we did in 1954. Yes, that's right, less than 1954.
Total Energy - U.S. Energy Information Administration (EIA) - U.S. Energy Information Administration (EIA)

Worldwide consumption has been flat since 2005. When prices were what, $50-$60 per barrel. Not coincidentally this is where prices fell to in 2008, briefly.
World Crude Oil Consumption by Year (Thousand Barrels per Day)
Light Crude Oil (Pit) Monthly Commodity Futures Price Chart

Production has been cut by OPEC to counter oversupply. Google it.

Crap, we have over 50 billion, no maybe 87 billion, no maybe a trillion barrels of oil in the ground.
How Much Oil Does the U.S. Have in the Ground - What Does It Mean for Investors? - Seeking Alpha
Can Offshore Drilling Really Make the U.S. Oil Independent?: Scientific American

We do not drill our own oil unless prices are somewhat high. Why? Because of over regulation and the cost of doing business. Release this and the price at which we are wiling to drill will drop significantly. Open up the leases, make it favorable for companies to drill, etc.

Not only will prices drop, they will drop significantly as all the other oil producing nations scramble to lower prices below the price at which we will be willing to drill ourselves. After all, many of these countries are 1 trick poinies, without oil income they have nothing. They will not risk losing it all if the US gets serious about drilling and supplying not just its own, but oil for the world.

These markets move quickly. Look at the 10 year charts for prices. Look at 2008 - Wow! The fact is that an increase in true supply combined with a commit for the US to produce its own and for the world will deflate speculators - it would make the 2008 drop look like nothing.

Now you can argue with my logic, but it is not "coincidentally" following the drill baby drill mantra.

Also, I believe this should be combined with a lifting of restrictions on natural gas as well as alternative energy. Like I said earlie, the environmentalists will not allow a solar panel field in the Mojave to protect a squirrel.

In the end, US production would reduce prices significantly. I pick $0.72 cents a gallon because that was the price per gallon in 1988, and I like that price.

That was the sentence that caused me to reply and anyone that honestly looks into the issue knows it is false. Instead of admitting you were wrong, you added fuel to the fire by saying the price could be brought down to 72 cents a gallon.

But Moxie, I am not wrong.

 

[Moxie]

We currently produce 87% of the oil we did in 1954. Yes, that's right, less than 1954.

Drilling the ANWAR would bring that up to a whopping 89% and that is after whatever number of years it takes to get setup.

Production has been cut by OPEC to counter oversupply.

The US is not part of OPEC of course, and no matter what OPEC does, more US drilling can still only lower prices by so much.

Crap, we have over 50 billion, no maybe 87 billion, no maybe a trillion barrels of oil in the ground.

How Much Oil Does the U.S. Have in the Ground - What Does It Mean for Investors? - Seeking Alpha
Can Offshore Drilling Really Make the U.S. Oil Independent?: Scientific American

There may be trillions of additional barrels all over the world, but as far as proven reserves go, the US has 1 to 3 percent of the worldwide total. I'm not sure why you are linking to that Scientific American article, as it backs up what I've typed.

We do not drill our own oil unless prices are somewhat high.

So the price has been somewhat high since the 1850s?

The price from around 1986-1999 was about half of what it is now, even if we adjust for inflation, yet we drilled more back then. Currently we are the 3rd biggest driller of oil behind Russia and Saudi Arabia.

Why? Because of over regulation and the cost of doing business. Release this and the price at which we are wiling to drill will drop significantly. Open up the leases, make it favorable for companies to drill, etc.

US regulations only apply to the US, therefore they only apply to a relatively small amount of worldwide supply.

Not only will prices drop, they will drop significantly as all the other oil producing nations scramble to lower prices below the price at which we will be willing to drill ourselves.

Adding a few more drops 15 years from now to the bucket will cause other nations to scramble? Basic economics says otherwise.

They will not risk losing it all if the US gets serious about drilling and supplying not just its own, but oil for the world.

Ah yes, the US is gonna supply oil for the whole world. Who is the crazy one again?

These markets move quickly. Look at the 10 year charts for prices. Look at 2008 - Wow!

It's official: U.S. in recession all of 2008

Get Ready for the Oil-Price Drop | Alan Reynolds | Cato Institute: Commentary

In short, a huge share of crude oil is used to produce and distribute industrial products. That explains why the price of oil is extremely cyclical - that is, it tends to rise during economic booms and fall during contractions. It dropped 44 percent in the last recession (from November 2000 to November 2001), 48 percent from October 1990 to January 1992 - and 71 percent from July 1980 to July 1986.

But Moxie, I am not wrong.

So the US can supply itself with all the oil it needs, even though the oil companies own geologists say otherwise, and drilling millions of barrels a day is defined as not drilling?

 

[dtea206]

So the US can supply itself with all the oil it needs, even though the oil companies own geologists say otherwise, and drilling millions of barrels a day is defined as not drilling?

And the point goes to Moxie.

 

[REIMktg]

And the point goes to Moxie.

Break that down for me.
When the Gold Mine Geologists tell me they have made a big discovery, do I believe them, or could they have an interest in saying what they say?
Remember the guy that "fell" out of the helicopter, was he telling the truth?
Also, I will respond to the above later, but for you, I would say that drilling less oil than we did in 1954 is defined as "not drilling". Geeks on the interweb do not know how true conversations about these issues occur. Ya'll are sitting there, ready to snipe at the slightest generality when any commodity trader or person in the industry would understand the point. You can win on your point, but you are ignoring the overall issues. I did not realize that I was writing a thesis.

How you cannot see that oil demand is flat, there is a ton of it at our fingertips, yet the price has skyrocketed.... you think that is sustainable? Only if regulators make it so, in other words thwart the free market, which is what the EPA etc is doing.

Oil is in an unsustainable bubble. Stocks were in the 2000's, Real Estate was just a few years ago and is still somewhat today, and Gold and Oil are now. This too will drop like a rock.

I'll address Moxie's point above later.