Proof that Anarchy = Destruction of Society

[jacky8]

...

Ever considered moving to Saudi Arabia? From what I know, there are no taxes for foreigners and there's shariah too which you said you prefer over a government.

Anarchy (instead of government) looks good, but only ideally. Democracy appears great ideally. Dictatorship is also great if the dictator is a truly good person.

You need to figure out what's better. There's nothing "perfect". There is only something better than another thing relatively.

Now, anarchy which you think is great, is unfortunately a fail realistically

 

[guerilla]

Somalia has improved in a ton of social areas since they dumped their government. Wise asses who throw Somalia at Anarchists don't actually know fuck all about how Somalia works.

It's not philosophical anarchy but nonetheless, it demonstrates what happens when you remove impediments from the market and allow people to solve their own problems.

I try not to debate with SUPER very much. His arguments are typically very shallow and based on assertions.

 

[SUP3RNOVA]

Yes there are. There is more private security in Iraq than military and I think it's 50/50 in Afghanistan right now. Private security firms would be everywhere if the US government dissolved. They wouldn't be booked up for work 20 years at a time.

Aren't most of the security companies being used with American/Iraqi army forces? And isn't their purpose mainly to support the armies? That's different from a country being 100% run by private security companies with nobody to be held accountable by.

How many innocent people has our country murdered this week? Unless it's 0 (it's not) is that sensible to you? If so our definitions of sensible vary greatly.

I said that our country was founded on, not the current state of our country. I've already said there's a great need for an overhaul, but not anarchy.

And if it's not okay with you I may want to think about not financing murder.

I very much disagree with the warmongering the US has been committing, and I do wish that voting actually meant something. That being said, we all pay our taxes and we all finance and support the war. The financial support we give to our corrupt rulers far outweighs any thinking or arguing we do about how wrong it is.

 

[scottspfd82]

Here in the U.S you can't throw a stick without hitting a household that owns a gun.

That should have been my first reply. Everyone is always "what about cops" so I was thinking more along the lines of giving them a replacement for public servants. But to honestly answer that question, I don't rely on cops now, and they're everywhere. I have guns and so does everyone I know. If the government disappeared right now the biggest difference I can think of is I wouldn't have to worry about getting pulled over by cops and I wouldn't be getting robbed. I'd work it out from there.

 

[guerilla]

Ever considered moving to Saudi Arabia? From what I know, there are no taxes for foreigners and there's shariah too which you said you prefer over a government.

So I can have a government and Sharia law? BRILLIANT!

Anarchy (instead of government) looks good, but only ideally.

You're right. Freedom is only good ideally. What we really need is slavery.

Dictatorship is also great if the dictator is a truly good person.

Time for you to learn economics.

You need to figure out what's better. There's nothing "perfect". There is only something better than another thing relatively.

Anarchy is better because it is the only system that has a chance of being moral. It has a chance people will be decent with each other.

Government is fundamentally immoral and violent from its inception.

No one is arguing for perfect. Read my posts before you reply to me or you're wasting everyone's time.

Now, anarchy which you think is great, is unfortunately a fail realistically

Ah yes, the inevitable "claim to reality".

*Yawn*

 

[clyde]

That should have been my first reply. Everyone is always "what about cops" so I was thinking more along the lines of giving them a replacement for public servants. But to honestly answer that question, I don't rely on cops now, and they're everywhere. I have guns and so does everyone I know. If the government disappeared right now the biggest difference I can think of is I wouldn't have to worry about getting pulled over by cops and I wouldn't be getting robbed. I'd work it out from there.

Throw me a bone, who decides who's OK to shoot?

 

[scottspfd82]

Aren't most of the security companies being used with American/Iraqi army forces

No, they're usually replacing them. I served in Iraq a long time ago. Seeing what the USG is doing to people in real life gives you a pretty good perspective about how fucked our government is and how serious human life is.

I said that our country was founded on, not the current state of our country. I've already said there's a great need for an overhaul, but not anarchy.

Our problem isn't the type of Government. It's the fact that there's a government.

The government does not serve you, it rules you and robs you. And in our case uses that money to fuck up a lot of other lives as well, while getting nice kickbacks from all of the juicy contracts they keep handing out. That's one thing about Iraq, those guards were making like $300k every six months to guard a door in the green zone. That Halliburten big shot probably banked 9 figs+ getting that signed.

The financial support we give to our corrupt rulers far outweighs any thinking or arguing we do about how wrong it is

The financial support they give is the only reason they exist to be able to do it

 

[scottspfd82]

Throw me a bone, who decides who's OK to shoot

I'm non-aggressive, self defense only.

Seriously? I've been camping/hiking/mountain climbing/fishing a million times with a gun around strangers with guns in BFE where they could shoot me if they wanted to. People don't just go around and shoot people, and if they do they'll get shot.

 

[SUP3RNOVA]

You can't entertain anarchy without looking at Somalia. Which part are we looking at though? The theocratic slums that submit to Sharia law or the Xeer part that is actually churning out a profitable airline industry? Something we can't even seem to do here?

You've got to look at both. I'm all for free market capitalism, and the US has many profitable industries even with a staunch central government. As far as the market goes, you'd have to look at what would cost businesses more...paying competing security companies for protection or paying a fair tax rate to a central government? I'll admit I'm not well read into the specifics of that, so I could be wrong about it but I'm sure it's a very complicated subject.

And then on the other side with the thugs and warlords, what is stopping them? What will ever stop them?

 

[SUP3RNOVA]

The financial support they give is the only reason they exist to be able to do it

They give? Don't you mean we give? You pay taxes, right?

Nobody is putting a gun to your head and forcing you to pay taxes. You have complete freedom to get up and move out of the country. You willingly stay in the US and pay taxes to it (I'm assuming you're American).

 

[scottspfd82]

And then on the other side with the thugs and warlords, what is stopping them? What will ever stop them?

Do you rely on cops to protect you from thugs and warlords now? I've never had a cop protect me, and I definitely wouldn't wait around expecting him to. I'm more afraid of cops than thugs and warlords.

Do you not know people? If there's violent gangs running around you team up and take 'em out. I don't see that happening unless you're in a bad part of Chicago or something.

 

[clyde]

I'm non-aggressive, self defense only.

Seriously? I've been camping/hiking/mountain climbing/fishing a million times with a gun around strangers with guns in BFE where they could shoot me if they wanted to. People don't just go around and shoot people, and if they do they'll get shot.

Good. Here's my next question.

What's stopping people with guns from victimizing people that can't afford one?

 

[scottspfd82]

They give? Don't you mean we give? You pay taxes, right?

Nobody is putting a gun to your head and forcing you to pay taxes. You have complete freedom to get up and move out of the country. You willingly stay in the US and pay taxes to it (I'm assuming you're American).

Typo, can't edit. And yep, I'm well aware of my options.

 

[guerilla]

All of these arguments continue to avoid the issue of morality.

It is wrong to force people to do things against their will.

If you agree with that, and you want to live consistent with that, you're an anarchist.

If you don't, you're a sociopath.

 

[guerilla]

What's stopping people with guns from victimizing people that can't afford one?

Nothing.

That's what's happening to me right now. I am being victimized by the state.

 

[scottspfd82]

What's stopping people with guns from victimizing people that can't afford one

I don't see why you guys think everyone is just going to go nuts. This is my basic philosophy... Voluntaryism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

If it was someone close to me I'd give them a gun. If I saw someone being victimized I'd help. Most people here have guns and there's not a lot of crime so I wouldn't be worried. It's not like people would be all alone. You'd still have friends and family. If it was an apocalypse scenario and you were alone you'd probably meet up with a group of survivors. Or get killed. That'd be regardless of my thoughts on government at that point though.

 

[SUP3RNOVA]

Somalia has improved in a ton of social areas since they dumped their government. Wise asses who throw Somalia at Anarchists don't actually know fuck all about how Somalia works.

It's not philosophical anarchy but nonetheless, it demonstrates what happens when you remove impediments from the market and allow people to solve their own problems.

I try not to debate with SUPER very much. His arguments are typically very shallow and based on assertions.

Offhand, do you know any sources which show crime rates in Somalia before and since 1991? I've been looking for 10 minutes or so and haven't found anything yet. If you don't have anything referenced I'll keep looking.

I'm not trying to argue that free markets are somehow worse for business, because they're not. And I'm not arguing that the way the USG controls our market is anywhere near optimal...no control would certainly be better than the control that exists now.

But a central government can be useful, if run properly. A national defense is extremely important, especially for a country as economically powerful as America. Even the police force, which always has it's bad apples, can serve purposefully. The simplicity of roads/bridges/buildings being built into a single tax makes things more simple for the citizens. I'm with Ron Paul on education.

 

[jacky8]

So I can have a government and Sharia law? BRILLIANT!

There are no taxes. There is shariah. I don't know why you wouldn't love moving there

You're right. Freedom is only good ideally. What we really need is slavery.

That is not what I meant.

You don't understand the difference between ideal and real cases. Time for you to check out real world politics.. even mathematics and physics. Check out how an equation in physics varies ideally vs realistically.

Learn how complicated equations resolve to simple ones. What would anarchy resolve to? Dictatorship probably.. or a greedy organization eliminating all competition (or consolidating quickly) and then violently enforcing its monopoly and rule

Time for you to learn economics.

Time for you to analyze the real world.

I was just saying.. srsly I don't support dictatorships

Anarchy is better because it is the only system that has a chance of being moral. It has a chance people will be decent with each other.

Government is fundamentally immoral and violent from its inception.

No one is arguing for perfect. Read my posts before you reply to me or you're wasting everyone's time.


Ah yes, the inevitable "claim to reality".

*Yawn*

This is like the endless circle of arguments. This is already discussed before

I never claimed anything to be perfect. There is nothing perfect, certainly not a system created by humans in current state of intelligence. There is only something better than another thing. Hand over a country to private organizations and what you would get is what I mentioned above.

 

[SUP3RNOVA]

Do you rely on cops to protect you from thugs and warlords now? I've never had a cop protect me, and I definitely wouldn't wait around expecting him to. I'm more afraid of cops than thugs and warlords.

I've used the cops in a dispute before, and they resolved it quickly and successfully. Out of my probably 20 or so encounters with the cops in my lifetime, 19 of them couldn't have been any better. They were responsive, polite, and understanding. I had 1 bad experience with an old angry cop who gave me a tongue lashing for cutting him off because my lane ended.

 

[clyde]

I don't see why you guys think everyone is just going to go nuts. This is my basic philosophy... Voluntaryism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

If it was someone close to me I'd give them a gun. If I saw someone being victimized I'd help. Most people here have guns and there's not a lot of crime so I wouldn't be worried. It's not like people would be all alone. You'd still have friends and family. If it was an apocalypse scenario and you were alone you'd probably meet up with a group of survivors. Or get killed. That'd be regardless of my thoughts on government at that point though.

I don't think that. I think for the most part people will behave.

I think I know your answer though, nothing. We're already living in an anarchist state and the government is the guy with the gun that you don't want to piss off.

I argue that a government would quickly form as soon as the previous one left town.

I don't think it's completely impossible to have an anarchist world but it has to come through self-realization which will take awhile. First, there has to be a power that's stronger than all the world governments combined. I'm counting on extra-terrestial. Then we'll need people that are smart enough.