Tips for avoiding Paypal refunds on digital goods?

Michael_

Michael_

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Mar 12, 2013
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Getting ready to do a deal on some MMO game items as I've lost interest in them and I'm focusing far more on IM and real life stuff. This area is notorious for having buyers requesting refunds through Paypal after receiving the items. Which leaves the seller pretty much screwed when Paypal issues their standard dispute reply of "We do not offer protection of virtual goods." and refunds the buyer in full.

Realizing the same issue exists in IM businesses that offer info-products and services through Paypal, are there any good tips to help dominate in the event of a refund/dispute request for this particular scenario?
 


My paypal rep told me once if you stick your digital goods on a CD/DVD and ship it out, then you have proof of shipment.
 
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dreamache said:
My paypal rep told me once if you stick your digital goods on a CD/DVD and ship it out, then you have proof of shipment.
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Doesn't really apply in this case since I'm selling items in a game for real cash. Basically unloading all my work over the years in an MMO.
 
jorarulit said:
You put the items in a different account, put it on the CD and ship it to the guy.
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Most MMOs have everything related to the account kept server side and pretty much just the core files on the client side. So I can't really transfer anything to disc. Think Eve Online game currency, for example. Or, the entire account itself.

Would skype transcript screenshots + corresponding in-game screenshots detailing the transaction help my case in the event of a dispute? Just really having a tough time thinking of a way to have a shot a winning a refund dispute. Only real protection I can find is to have the most reputable buyer I can find, but that also greatly diminishes my earning potential as doing business with them comes at a hefty price.
 
This is fucking great advice with the CD.

1. Make yourself some primitive site or page, sites.google.com is what i used a couple of times for this.

2. Create a payment button for a needed sum in your paypal admin. Write there some item name that is close to your game stuff but can mean also something else which can be really put on CD.
For example, you sell "20 nuclear defense manas", name it "20 tips on increasing nuclear defense manas".

3. Plase the button from p.2 onto the page from p.1.

4. Give the douchebag the link to this page and instruct him to hit the button.

5. Douchebag hits the button and pays, you get your monies and send him your shit.

6. Now goes what i didn't know and what good man dreamache suggested: you burn CD with some crap that can be described with the name given.
In our case, you write in .txt file 20 lines about nuclear defense and about how stupid the douchebag is or any stuff.
Then you send this CD by the cheapest postal tariff to the address you find in the payment info.

7. Now your butt is covered: 1) paypal already knows (from the button) what the douchebag paid for, and 2) you can fax to paypal your postal receipt.

8. Douchebas sucks pewep's dick.

9. Profit.

10. :rasta:
 
Michael_ said:
Most MMOs have everything related to the account kept server side and pretty much just the core files on the client side. So I can't really transfer anything to disc. Think Eve Online game currency, for example. Or, the entire account itself.

Would skype transcript screenshots + corresponding in-game screenshots detailing the transaction help my case in the event of a dispute? Just really having a tough time thinking of a way to have a shot a winning a refund dispute. Only real protection I can find is to have the most reputable buyer I can find, but that also greatly diminishes my earning potential as doing business with them comes at a hefty price.
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If it's the entire account, just put your password on a text file and ship the cd/dvd with that.

It honestly doesn't matter what's on the cd/dvd, just that you ship it as a physical product to a confirmed address, and you have tracking that shows it arrived at that address. If you're selling the account, put the password on the cd, if its an item, just take a screenshot and burn it onto the dvd. You can just do the transfer ingame, but if they dispute it at least you'll have proof of shipment.
 
Passwords and screenshots can not be a proof. You need to "sell" something legit in paypal's eyes, 4eg ebook or 20 tips. Game items or accounts will be never seen by paypal as legit trade subject, and paypal is right in this imo.
 
Back when I was doing digital goods (about 5 years ago) we always used the CD method. We won tons of chargebacks that way. For in game currency why not just take away whatever they bought if the charge is refunded and then close their game account?
 
cheshire said:
Back when I was doing digital goods (about 5 years ago) we always used the CD method. We won tons of chargebacks that way. For in game currency why not just take away whatever they bought if the charge is refunded and then close their game account?
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I don't own the platform. I'm a player.

golan said:
Passwords and screenshots can not be a proof. You need to "sell" something legit in paypal's eyes, 4eg ebook or 20 tips. Game items or accounts will be never seen by paypal as legit trade subject, and paypal is right in this imo.
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True. Game's ToS aside, I think there's value in selling man-hours as some of the stuff in these MMOs can take years to achieve/acquire. Truth be told, in many of the more popular MMOs, the demand for in-game items for real life currency is undeniable and done on a daily basis, even though 99% of the games prohibit it in their terms of use. Just sucks that sellers just have zero protection (although understandable since it's usually a violation of ToS) and pretty much *everyone* uses paypal in this market.
 
get a 3d printer, print that shit out and mail it. The can scan it back in when they receive.
 
If the buyer wants to scam you, he will be able to do a dispute and win no matter what shipping you do on a digital item.

However, most people don't know this. Most people think that if you ship something, the buyer can win the dispute. This isn't the case, but look in this thread... plenty of people think that it is!

So, sell to someone reputable, and ship it out on a CD if possible (like a username and password to a game account on a .txt file). Most people will assume you are doing this so that you will be able to win the dispute if they start one. If they know that they can win and call your bluff, you're fucked, but it's the best option you have.
 
I use to sling several game currencies back in the day. Fortunately the transactions have become a bit securer over the years, if using paypal go with Playerauctions. They accept paypal and take on the risk, buyer has to go through some verification but if they really want your goods they'll do it. A week or two later you can cash out.
 
n-i-p-s-t-a-e-m said:
paypal ALWAYS sides with the seller on the sale of digital goods (because intangible items are not covered for protection)
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This is actually been the case for me. If someone ever opened a dispute with me over virtual goods I just go into the dispute center and say "This guy is trying to get a refund on virtual good / service that has been delivered".

And paypal will side with me because they don't offer protection on digital goods.

Problem with paypal (I don't know if they still do this...) Is sometimes when someone opens a dispute they will take out the funds from your account immediately and put it on hold. They use to send that money back to the buyers account and what would end up happening is the buyer would withdraw the money to his bank account and even if I won the dispute, they couldn't get the money back and they would tell me... "Sorry we can't do nothing he doesn't have any money in his account.." I hated that shit... I think they may have changed this process to give sellers a little more protection although I'm not sure.
 
It would be great if someone came up with an escrow service that was for small ticket items.

I'm sure it would scare away a lot of these 2bit scammers that know how screw over people using paypal.
 
n-i-p-s-t-a-e-m said:
paypal ALWAYS sides with the seller on the sale of digital goods (because intangible items are not covered for protection)
Click to expand...

I've defiantly been fucked in the past by a digital goods product and was not able to get my money back as a buyer.

I've also been fucked in the past by a chargeback on digital goods as a seller.

If you're the seller and it's a dispute you will probably win. If you're the seller and it's a chargeback you will probably lose, as if they charge back the money is gone to Paypal.
 
erifdekciw said:
This is actually been the case for me. If someone ever opened a dispute with me over virtual goods I just go into the dispute center and say "This guy is trying to get a refund on virtual good / service that has been delivered".
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How do you accomplish that without people blasting your name all over blogs and forums, about how you're an unethical, thieving asshole? (I'm not saying you are, but just saying... that's what happens). Then when people are considering purchasing, they do a quick search for your product / service, and see a bunch of people talking trash about you.
 
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