$15 Minimum Wage in Seattle Approved

[teatree]

Unions and trade organizations are well and good, but when the .gov gets involved via licensure regulation it drives the cost of services well above their market value.

I think about this every time I need to go to an office and get a permission slip from an MD so that I can drive across town and give that permission slip to a pharmacist in order to purchase my blood pressure medication.

Licensing is a separate thing/problem from wage setting though, isn't it? And licensing came about because some people were selling placebos and calling them blood pressure medication... You can still see this practice in the herbal remedy sector and weight loss sector - selling "medicines" that don't work is big business. The pressure to licence only comes if people start dying, as they do when serious medicine goes wrong (but not weight loss or herbal stuff).

Getting back to wage setting - I was just trying to point out to people that when they are asking for no interference from government, that should apply across the board.

But a lot of the people clamoring for non-interference also pressured the govt to interfere in the wage-bargaining process and ban things like sympathy strikes, wild-cat strikes and other practices that would go on in a purely free-for-all world.

That interference has had consequences - including soaring bills for the taxpayer.

Business tends to want employees to have as few rights as they do in China, but at the same time to have the purchasing power of free people in the west, in order to buy their products, and they want the tax rates of a small city state like Monaco which has no great infrastructure requirements.

That circle can't be squared. I'm amazed people even think it can.

If they all don't pay their employees well, they won't have purchasing power to buy goods - unless they a) borrow or b) the govt steps in with a tax credit subsidy.

If the low paid borrow and can't repay, the banks then need a bailout from the taxpayer. The tax credits also come from the taxpayer. Who is the taxpayer? The same households/individuals who are being paid so little - it's not the corporations, who employ elaborate tax avoidance schemes. And because they are being paid so little they arn't generating much tax to support all of this. So the govt itself has to borrow to make up the shortfall. Then the govt in desperation at the soaring bill for all of this legislates a minimum wage to fix it all. But if they hadn't interfered in the wage-bargaining process in the first place it would probably still be like the 1950's.

 

[Unarmed Gunman]

I'm not in favour of the govt deciding wages - I'm trying to point out that they are only doing so because the govt has restricted the ability for employees to negotiate with anti-union laws, and this has had negative consequences (a soaring bill for tax credits to make up for poor pay). Remove the restrictions and you remove the need to have a minimum wage. Germany for example doesn't have a minimum wage, but has strong unions.

However, many pretendy libertarian people get all upset when you point out to them that true libertarianism means no restrictions on anybody and that includes trade unions.. If a union wants to enlist the support of other industries in sympathy strikes for example, they should - it's sometimes the only way for the unskilled to get any leverage.

But that seems to make a lot of "libertarian" types come over all panicky. Suddenly they think, oh nos, we need restrictions on them! And their philosophy about not having laws and a free-for-all for everyone suddenly shrivels.

"The government" wasn't responsible for Hostess going bankrupt, and neither was the union. They went bankrupt due to a management decision to degrade their balance sheet.

They started to borrow money to buy back their shares, and ended up with $800 million of debt. They couldn't service that debt from their profits and went under.

Nobody in the government or the union told them to do that. It was a management decision. In fact if there was a union rep on the board, german-style, they'd have probably nixed the idea to borrow to buy back shares as too risky. But I notice that you are blaming the union for all the trouble - if only the workers had worked for free, then they would have had enough service the debt, hell they could have borrowed even more to buy back shares. Those unions are evil, we should pass more laws to make it impossible for them to ask for wages. This is the kind of thinking that passes for "libertarianism".

You didn't answer the question.

What are these anti-union laws being pushed by libertarians that you keep harping on?

 

[JakeStratham]

Unfortunately libertarians define "liberty" as the freedom for them to exploit without their victims having the freedom to fight back.

A libertarian state would have no restrictions at all.

true libertarianism means no restrictions on anybody and that includes trade unions.

These statements are untrue.

Classical libertarianism is based on voluntary association. Every individual has the right to associate with - or disassociate from - any other individual. In such a state, there would be no laws against the formation of unions. Nor would there be laws preventing business owners from refusing to hire people who are members of a union.

Here's another way to look at it:

I own a house. I invite select individuals into my house. People are free to form groups outside my house, and even vote on whether they should be allowed to enter, assume control, or burn it to the ground.

But I am free to bar their entry. As a property owner, I set restrictions regarding the use of my property.

Classical libertarians believe it should be likewise with business owners and the people they choose to hire. Unfortunately, unions rely on government legislation, the threat of violence, or outright aggression.


Here is a fantastic article on the history of unions:

A History of Labor Unions from Colonial Times to 2009 - Morgan Reynolds - Mises Daily


Here is a short article on unions' use of violence:

The Myth of Voluntary Unions - Thomas J. DiLorenzo - Mises Daily

 

[dreamache]

^+1

Teatree, when you say libertarians, you must be talking about the fake ass republican'ish political flavor of libertarians like Rand Paul.

To expand on what JakeStratham stated, central to libertarianism is non-aggression. It's immoral to initiate or threaten the initiation of force against a person or their property. As long as one isn't breaking the non-aggression principle, you're free to do as you please. People voluntarily coming together who share a common interest to peacefully voice a position and negotiate is not in violation of the NAP.

Just as with republicans and democrats, there are several different flavors of libertarians. You have the hypocritical statist minarchist libertarians (likely the ones you're referring to), left-libertarians (otherwise known anarcho-communists) and right-libertarians (anarcho-capitalists / voluntaryists.). So it's important to understand the distinction between the 3 and not lump together the viewpoints of one as defining all of libertarians.

 

[teatree]

Teatree, when you say libertarians, you must be talking about the fake ass republican'ish political flavor of libertarians like Rand Paul.

Yes I was - you are correct about that. The other types you mentioned don't get elected, do they, so they have as much influence on the shape of govt as a wet noodle.

 

[fewver]

here if people gets $2.5 then they will be more than happy but its USA where these high paying cities work.

 

[Unarmed Gunman]

Yes I was - you are correct about that. The other types you mentioned don't get elected, do they, so they have as much influence on the shape of govt as a wet noodle.

You still haven't answered the question. What anti-union laws are these "libertarians" pushing through?

Here in Michigan they recently passed "Right to Work" legislation, which is often characterized as anti-union. Except it doesn't do anything to limit unions or the ability to unionize. It just prevents closed shops. It gives workers the freedom to opt out of a union and individually bargain if they so choose. If a union is providing a net positive to the workers, they would have no reason to opt out, right?

So I'm legitimately curious to know what anti-union laws you're referring to.

 

[Kiopa_Matt]

^^ Not sure how it works in the US, but I know in Canada, depending on the sector, the government can order a union back to work. For example, air traffic controllers. If they go on strike, the government can step in and say, "too fucken bad, we designated your job as vital, so get your ass back to work", and they're legally obligated to go back to work.

 

[IceToEskimos]

^^ Not sure how it works in the US, but I know in Canada, depending on the sector, the government can order a union back to work. For example, air traffic controllers. If they go on strike, the government can step in and say, "too fucken bad, we designated your job as vital, so get your ass back to work", and they're legally obligated to go back to work.

we had some air traffic controllers strike in the US once...

 

[JakeStratham]

we had some air traffic controllers strike in the US once...

 

[User9364]

^+1

Teatree, when you say libertarians, you must be talking about the fake ass republican'ish political flavor of libertarians like Rand Paul.

There are way better examples. Rand Paul is probably the closest a libertarian has come to co-opting republicans, but definitely not so the other way around.

 

[clear]

You still haven't answered the question. What anti-union laws are these "libertarians" pushing through?

He did answer it, read in between the lines. He doesnt know the difference in a libertarian and a republican. That should give you all the answers you need. :drinkup:

 

[JarredLv]

What if I can only afford to my my employee(s) $12 an hour?

Impossible. The government knows best and the government knows that it can force you to pay your employees $15 a hour without consequence or knowing what your margins are like. Stop being a greedy fucking capitalist.

 

[dreamache]

Yes I was - you are correct about that. The other types you mentioned don't get elected, do they, so they have as much influence on the shape of govt as a wet noodle.

Well the difference is, they don't want elected. I disagree about them not having any influence on the shape of government though. Advocating stateless/free societies and spreading the idea of what true freedom is, and reaching people like me certainly does have an affect. As a result, myself and others won't be teaching statism to our children, won't allow them to be indoctrinated by state run schools, and will emphasize critical thinking.

The good ol' interwebs is spreading these ideas faster than ever. Maybe a few generations and we'll rid the world of this ridiculous notion that theft, murder and kidnapping is justifiable when you get together a group of people and wrap silly flags around 'em.

 

[dreamache]

I'll take this silence to brag about my recently acquired 3d skillz with a relevant image:

 

[alpaca]

If raising minimum wage to $15 an hour will hurt the middle and working class, how does one explain the high quality of life in places like Norway and Denmark that have high minimum wages and a much smaller difference between classes? I'm honestly just curious how libertarians explain this.

Norway isn't a good example because of the oil money and oil industry. The oil funds a very large social welfare system.

"On a per-capita basis, it is the world's largest producer of oil and natural gas outside the Middle East."

Norway is also interesting because they have no debt and a sovereign wealth fund worth around $1 trillion dollars.... all thanks to oil.

"With per capita GDP around $100,000, the Norwegian lifestyle has become such that the work week averages less than 33 hours, one of the lowest in the world, and while unemployment is low, there is large underemployment, made possible by benefits."

 

[Grindstone]

Oh Grindstone, you're such a card!

 

[soulravager]

Damn I was really worried about the new minimum wage increase, but I PMed Grindstone and he sent me his battle plan for going around it.