Mike Rowe is a solid dude.

[JulianTrueFlynn]

Well I myself am a college dropout (well technically an extended leave of absence) so I definitely don't think a degree is a requirement to be successful at life.

I will say that I think most of the software that gets written in the internet marketing world is fairly simple, which allows for an average developer to look really smart. I think for more complicated projects, the skill difference between your average self taught developer and your average developer with a CS major from a top university becomes much more apparent.

For instance certain parts of how WordAi learns are based on algorithms that would require an understanding of fairly basic math concepts like partial derivatives and matrix algebra (as well as some concepts more complicated than that). But many self taught programmers would struggle to even conceptualize those topics because they lack the math background. When keeping up with the most cutting edge artificial intelligence work, you see math equations just as often as you see code, and a CS degree prepares you for that.

A good example of this is Renaissance Technologies, which uses complex mathematical models and artificial intelligence to manage their hedge funds. Over one third of their employees have Ph.D.'s because the concepts are so complicated.

Although we are not quite at the level of Renaissance, I very purposefully try to create products like this, because I know that this effectively limits the number of people who can compete with me. It creates very large barriers to entry where a large percentage of self taught developers simply do not have the background required to compete.

Now of course with that being said there is the occasional incredibly good completely self taught programmer, but the signal to noise ratio for hiring people without a degree can be very bad. There was someone recently on this forum who ran into that issue where they posted a programming job, explicitly didn't require a CS degree, and they got a horde of completely unqualified applications. For people with a CS degree you can assume a certain level of qualification because the CS programs they are in are so hard that anyone who wasn't really good would be forced to switch their major because they wouldn't be able to keep up.

Yup, I remember you highlighting that you like to decrease competition by going into areas that require higher intelligence in a post awhile ago and made me think a lot.

When people say they only hire based on certain institutions it just freaks me out. Because those things you listed (at least math wise) aren't impossible to learn outside of college - free. I guess I'm thinking of the future of education here too and what it will become.

Don't you think there's a way to change the hiring process a little so you net most talented and don't lose potential employee-wins for your team? I know places like Google have extremely different processes for hiring - I believe they don't look at degree either (not that we can compare ourselves to Google here).

I totally get just using it as a way to filter potential hires - I just don't like it.

 

[cardine]

Yup, I remember you highlighting that you like to decrease competition by going into areas that require higher intelligence in a post awhile ago and made me think a lot.

When people say they only hire based on certain institutions it just freaks me out. Because those things you listed (at least math wise) aren't impossible to learn outside of college - free. I guess I'm thinking of the future of education here too and what it will become.

Don't you think there's a way to change the hiring process a little so you net most talented and don't lose potential employee-wins for your team? I know places like Google have extremely different processes for hiring - I believe they don't look at degree either (not that we can compare ourselves to Google here).

I totally get just using it as a way to filter potential hires - I just don't like it.

One of the biggest issues with hiring (especially in Computer Science) is that if you post a job offer online you almost always get terrible applicants. This is because there is such a high demand for very good software engineers, that if you (as someone seeking a job) need to resort to applying online for a job you are very likely a bad programmer. Otherwise you'd have a huge rolodex of companies that would give you a job in a heartbeat.

The only exception to this are people who are in college (or very recently graduated college), because they haven't yet built their network of potential employers - so by targeting students while still in college you can become a part of their network. Here is a great article that talks about this.

So in my opinion, the only way (unless you are a company like Google where nearly every CS graduate wants to work for you) to properly recruit exceptionally good developers without a degree is to go after them individually. After all, if they were exceptional they won't be looking for jobs on job boards.

So if I happened to meet someone who I thought was an incredible programmer and a very strong math background (they absolutely do exist) and that person didn't have a degree I would have no issue interviewing them just like I would anyone else. I just don't necessarily go out of my way doing that when it is far easier to get people I know who are super qualified by recruiting recent graduates or interns who are still in school.

Google does look at degree quite a bit (I think they hired 15% of CMU's CS graduating class last year - an incredibly large amount for a single company.) But they also have the benefit that the incredibly qualified programmers who aren't CS majors view Google as a dream job.

 

[shindig]

One selfish truth about the cost of school I never see mentioned:

It doesn't matter how much you take on in student loans, when it comes time to pay, if you don't make good 6 figures, they would rather lower it than have you default, and it re-adjusts based on your income....even if it's 500k+ in loans it bases off income when you pay it back.

My friend with a phd in philosophy made that point the last time we were talking about the ridiculous costs of education. He pays $100/mo for 20 years, then it's forgiven.

 

[productionhead]

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mDBq-OU1rHo[/ame]

 

[boatBurner]

One selfish truth about the cost of school I never see mentioned:

It doesn't matter how much you take on in student loans, when it comes time to pay, if you don't make good 6 figures, they would rather lower it than have you default, and it re-adjusts based on your income....even if it's 500k+ in loans it bases off income when you pay it back.

My friend with a phd in philosophy made that point the last time we were talking about the ridiculous costs of education. He pays $100/mo for 20 years, then it's forgiven.

You actually can't default on student loans. It's one of the things that isn't allowed to be included in bankruptcy.

 

[CCarter]

[..] Even seemingly original ideas are remixes anyways [..]

--

You actually can't default on student loans. It's one of the things that isn't allowed to be included in bankruptcy.

He's not talking about bankruptcy or default - he is referring to the "Health Care and Education Reconciliation Act of 2010":

For new borrowers after 2014, loans would be eligible to be forgiven to those who make timely payments after 20 years, down from 25 years previously.[22]
making it easier for parents to take out federal loans for students.

Sauce: Health Care and Education Reconciliation Act of 2010 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[shindig]

You actually can't default on student loans. It's one of the things that isn't allowed to be included in bankruptcy.

If you don't make a payment for 90 days it defaults with your loan processor and they'll no longer negotiate with you, your credit takes a shit, and it cannot be discharged.

However, they would like to have you paying something than nothing and will re-adjust it based on income regardless of the amount of the loans.

Nelnet is one of the major processors, these are their income based repayment programs: Nelnet

 

[emp]

America fucking over its brightest and their families with the high cost of tuition - and by extension its own future....

All I can do is shake my head at this.

::emp::

 

[emp]

I went to Carnegie Mellon for Computer Science for a year before taking an extended leave of absence to start what I've been doing now for the past 4 years. I am both glad I went there and glad I took a leave of absence when I did.

In my first semester I was taught a class in a brand new programming language that was literally being invented by the professor as we were learning it, and our final project was to write a VM for that new language in C. In my second semester, every two weeks we would have a programming assignment like "write a fully functional regex parser in two weeks" or "write a fully functional chess game with AI that could beat the best human chess player in the world." I also got to take a class taught by Luis von Ahn - at the time he was showing us a prototype for what has now become Duolingo. I also did research there with several other students about how the mind understands and processes English - something that was very useful to me later on with WordAi.

I am incredibly thankful for that experience and think it was very helpful to me. It made me a far better software developer, and it also helped me realize how much better the really good software developers are - even most of the average students at CMU could run circles around a lot of the people on this forum who view themselves as programmers.

I've been hiring a lot of software developers recently and I almost exclusively require a computer science degree from a highly reputable university like that. That doesn't mean there aren't great programmers out there who didn't go to college, but when I'm hiring and I see someone who graduated from a top tier computer science school I know they have to be extremely competent or else they would have been eaten alive and switched to a different major.

Of course it depends on what you want to do in life. I think for a lot of people they would get a much higher ROI getting involved in a skilled trade (like what Mike Rowe advocates) versus paying $200k for a Philosophy major.

And which one would that be?

Taking this list:
Timeline of programming languages - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I can only find ONE that was invented at Carnegie Mellon, called BLISS and that was in the 70s.

But.. I also checked with the people from this
Principles of Programming Research in the Computer Science Department at Carnegie Mellon

And can find none of them on the wikipedia site either.

Looking at the page (and the very cool stuff Carnegie does) might actually mean that Carnegie and Wikipedia disagree on what constitutes a programming language.

Look at stuff like Twelf, TIL or other stuff they do, and you will understand WHY a degree in computer science may be a few leagues above your run of the mill programmer.

::emp::

 

[DewChugr]

America fucking over its brightest and their families with the high cost of tuition - and by extension its own future....

All I can do is shake my head at this.

::emp::

No one cares about tomorrow, only today's dollar.

What do you think about this? These days universities enroll more asian and other foreign students at the expense of US students for the higher tuition rates. These same universities rely on "gifts" from former students that do well. How will this affect them when tomorrows students that are making bank are living in other countries and have no interest in giving them money? Someone else's problem?

 

[cardine]

And which one would that be?

Taking this list:
Timeline of programming languages - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I can only find ONE that was invented at Carnegie Mellon, called BLISS and that was in the 70s.

But.. I also checked with the people from this
Principles of Programming Research in the Computer Science Department at Carnegie Mellon

And can find none of them on the wikipedia site either.

Looking at the page (and the very cool stuff Carnegie does) might actually mean that Carnegie and Wikipedia disagree on what constitutes a programming language.

Look at stuff like Twelf, TIL or other stuff they do, and you will understand WHY a degree in computer science may be a few leagues above your run of the mill programmer.

::emp::

The language is C0, and it was created by Frank Pfenning. He is a part of that research group you linked to, he is the professor that taught my class, and he has since become the head of Carnegie Mellon's Computer Science Department.

The language isn't necessarily meant to be used in production, but to strongly encourage you to mathematically proving your code - the language by design placed a big emphasis on contracts. That class is taught alongside a proofs class to really hammer down that concept.

Although C0 doesn't have a Wikipedia page (I don't think C0 has ever been released outside of CMU) it is mentioned on Pfenning's Wikipedia page.