Conspiracy Theories and Athiesm

[hellblazer]

Whether a man called Jesus existed or not isnt the point, its blah blah..

Lol...if there's anything I really enjoy, it's watching atheists move the goalposts again and again. First there's no evidence to support Christianity, then there is evidence, but it's false. Then the evidence has been partially corroborated, but since it hasn't been totally confirmed by the historical record, it simply MUST be false.

And here's why your perspective, and others like yours, is totalitarian. Your outlook wants to use the government to stop parents from bringing up their children with their religious heritage. (Literally - I think zimok even mentioned it as one of the greatest evils in the world.) Europe is far ahead in this regard - they know most Christians are homeschoolers, so they simply ban homeschooling and force all children to consume the government propaganda.

Christians, on the other hand, don't force anything on you. You say it is totalitarian because its doctrines contain concepts of sin, but that's only if you believe it. You have the choice to believe or not to believe. And its 'restrictive' to believe it's bad to lie, or cheat on your wife, or steal? And to attempt to live by that moral code? I'd rather be presented with a choice than have only one viewpoint hammered into my brain by you guys through the government, thank you very much.

 

[Sharksfan]

I'm an atheist, but obviously I came to this party late so I'll just get some popcorn and watch.

To be clear I'm an agnostic soft atheist.

 

[LogicFlux]

zimok FTW.

 

[popeye]

I really don't see any real atheist in this thread. I only see those that are just not really sure of their beliefs and hoping to get some validation from other wannabe atheist.

The other type I see here are the mentally butt hurt, who's strict orthodox religious upbringing has left them felling bitter and cheated. This group could also include those that were maybe abused by a religious authority figure.

 

[Gablablah]

Lol...if there's anything I really enjoy, it's watching atheists move the goalposts again and again. First there's no evidence to support Christianity, then there is evidence, but it's false. Then the evidence has been partially corroborated, but since it hasn't been totally confirmed by the historical record, it simply MUST be false.

First of all, it's not like we believe every single iota of scripture in the Bible is false. When it mentions a river in Egypt, it's probably talking about a real river. When it mentions bodily resurrections, we're more skeptical.

As for Jesus, you can't hold one atheist's view as representative of all others. There are some atheists who think Jesus was a real guy and some who think he wasn't. But even those who think he was, that's not a point in your favor. They still don't think he was the messiah, they just think that the miracle stories, while not being true, do reference a real person. There are written miracle stories of Indian guru Sathya Sai Baba. I don't think the miracles are true, but I believe he's a real person. In no way am I giving credence to the religion of his followers.

 

[Sharksfan]

I really don't see any real atheist in this thread.

I am one.

I am agnostic - ie, I claim no knowledge of god (as opposed to the gnostics, who claim the opposite).

I am also a soft atheist. I do not believe any of the religions have defined a god that I believe is credible. Hence, I believe all of them that have offered validated, double-blind tested proof showing a) their exact definition of god and b) factual, substantiated proof of that defintion. That is zero.

Strong atheism would state that all possible definitions of god are unbelievable and incorrect and I am not semantically prepared to validate that argument.

 

[Midas Touch]

I really don't see any real atheist in this thread. I only see those that are just not really sure of their beliefs and hoping to get some validation from other wannabe atheist.

The other type I see here are the mentally butt hurt, who's strict orthodox religious upbringing has left them felling bitter and cheated. This group could also include those that were maybe abused by a religious authority figure.

I'd have to agree with that observation.

For myself personally, not even from a very young age have I EVER felt that there has to be some Supreme Being, Higher Intelligence, or more to life than my existence time line. I've read quite a few Psych Books stating that it is "human nature" to have the psychological NEED to believe in something greater than themselves.

It was the fact that my family and those around me had this NEED to believe and I did not, that I started my journey of discovery. Which so far is not over and nothing definitive has been discovered by me as of yet.

I cannot recall any incident in my life line where any religion, religious figure, or deity itself ever caused me harm or distress. Quite the contrary. I actually have some very fond memories of being "A born again christian in the body of christ." (Ha Ha, this is PERFECT!! My spell checker said that christ was spelled wrong because I did not Capitalize the "c". LOL!!)

Most religious systems setup a set of guidelines that give the members some direction for their actions and lives that benefit both the individual and the group as a whole. Unfortunately it seems that they tend to get distorted or abused by less than virtuous individuals from time to time.

I basically look at it this way, one is free to believe as they please so long as it does not harm those around them unduly.

I myself make a claim to being an Atheist/Agnostic, which I know is not correct, but it's the closest that I can classify myself based on the words and definitions available to me. I no longer actively seek proof of a higher being but, if it suddenly presented itself and I were to take notice I'd consider it. I hold to no particular religion though I have adopted some of the moral values from the ones that I have either participated in or studied in the past and apply them to my life.

A helpful broad spectrum thing that I've learned is to not internalize actions or thoughts as "right or wrong", but more appropriately, as either "Wise or Unwise".


Sincerely,

MT

 

[HarveyJ]

Lol...if there's anything I really enjoy, it's watching atheists move the goalposts again and again. First there's no evidence to support Christianity, then there is evidence, but it's false. Then the evidence has been partially corroborated, but since it hasn't been totally confirmed by the historical record, it simply MUST be false.

Proof of Jesus' physical and historical existence is moot.
We know he existed. But that doesn't make him the son of god or god, anymore than Mohammed was God's prophet.
We know Mohammed and Jospeh Smith existed as well. Lots of good records of their existence. Yet something tells me you're not going to recognise them as the prophet of god.

And none of that in any way gives proof to either a supernatural or physical law constant creation of the universe / matter, or has anything to do with the OP.

 

[riddarhusetgal]

The world is going to hell in a basket. If it's some lonoey, dullard wacko shooting up poor folks in church it's some asshole hate monger who wants to act like the 50,000 jews for instance who were in Krakow Poland in 1939 just magically made themselves disappear to 5,000 by 1945. Don't know why but I feel really,really depressed now. Can't get that security guard's face out of my mind they flashed on CNN.


Too bad I've sworn off my favorite bottle of new world red I'd be chugging a lug right now...

Imagine that guy's kids praying everyday their dad is safe when he goes to work. No it wasn't some asshole, fucktard Taliban fuckers who shot him in the army. It was some pedophile, Hitler loving SOB in his own country.

Excuse my colorful language, contrary to probably perceptions, I went to a public junior high school in a semi tough neighborhood, lol.....

I feel really genuinely scared about the things to come in the next few months or so....

Guess we'll all have to "pray" or if you are an agnostic/atheist, just sit and meditate on peace....

 

[Sharksfan]

Proof of Jesus' physical and historical existence is moot.
We know he existed. But that doesn't make him the son of god or god, anymore than Mohammed was God's prophet.
We know Mohammed and Jospeh Smith existed as well. Lots of good records of their existence. Yet something tells me you're not going to recognise them as the prophet of god.

And none of that in any way gives proof to either a supernatural or physical law constant creation of the universe / matter, or has anything to do with the OP.

I'm not willing to say for sure he even existed. The only contemporary corraboration of his existence is Josephus, who lived in the first century AD and there's lot of trouble making his story add up.

Not to mention there was a Jesus before Jesus. Same story, 1000 years earlier.

 

[Gablablah]

Josephus isn't even a real corroboration for Jesus. For starters, Josephus was an orthodox Jew, and Jews didn't believe Jesus was the messiah.

Josephus' first alleged reference to Jesus is a Christian interpolation, and Christian scholars even admit this. In the midst of Josephus' otherwise normal writing comes this random out of place point-by-point checklist endorsement of Jesus as the messiah. Kind of strange that something like that would appear in the middle of a Jewish text.

The second reference is to a Jesus who was the son of a priest named Domnius. This is not the Biblical Jesus.

 

[Sharksfan]

Josephus isn't even a real corroboration for Jesus. For starters, Josephus was an orthodox Jew, and Jews didn't believe Jesus was the messiah.

Josephus' first alleged reference to Jesus is a Christian interpolation, and Christian scholars even admit this. In the midst of Josephus' otherwise normal writing comes this random out of place point-by-point checklist endorsement of Jesus as the messiah. Kind of strange that something like that would appear in the middle of a Jewish text.

The second reference is to a Jesus who was the son of a priest named Domnius. This is not the Biblical Jesus.

Exactly.

 

[riddarhusetgal]

Why does christianity always end up being the focus of stuff when discussing belief systems. First of all, NEWS FLASH!!!, there are religions far older than Christianity. Further, the bible is not a scientific document all though it does contain great moral and ethical truth. With all due respect, what does Jesus have to do with wave-particle duality, the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle, String Theory, multivariable calculus, the short comings of the 14th Chapter of the Origin of Species, the fact that scientists themselves have not developed a theory about what happened before the big bang, specifically 1/100th of a billionth of a second before (could be a trillionth don't quote me) the fact that we still have kids thinking that PLUTO IS A PLANET when that is no longer considered true?!

The problem is that radical Christians, Muslims, etc don't want to talk about Science and radical atheists who assert how their beliefs are based on "logic", "reason" and "science" don't want to talk about anything scientific that provides rational, logical empirical evidence that provides evidence for questioning their current belief systems - in other words anything scientific that would question an atheistic (vs. agnostic) world view, is uncomfortable for them.

I long for the day when truly open minds from whatever belief system will accept the fact that ALL BELIEFS are by definition irrational and if we don't continue to question them - consistently - the unshakeable desire for the truth will never be fulfilled.

So the hard core christians can go right ahead believing that atheists are going to "hell"

And the hard core atheists can go ahead believing that the quantum mechanical implications of the observer affect, string theory, the scientifically irrefutable implication that the presence of information and DNA has on the assumption of an infinitely aware and powerful consciousness at the level where all the 4 forces of nature - strong force, weak force,electromagneticism and gravity converge - by yelling "You believe in a pie in the sky fairy!!!"
And the reality is that both of them are behaving just as disillusionally and ignoring the power and beauty of bother direct personal, intuitive experience and scientific, empirical observation (knowledge from WITHIN and knowledge from WITHOUT)

 

[popeye]

Why does christianity always end up being the focus of stuff when discussing belief systems. First of all, NEWS FLASH!!!, there are religions far older than Christianity. Further, the bible is not a scientific document all though it does contain great moral and ethical truth. With all due respect, what does Jesus have to do with wave-particle duality, the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle, String Theory, multivariable calculus, the short comings of the 14th Chapter of the Origin of Species, the fact that scientists themselves have not developed a theory about what happened before the big bang, specifically 1/100th of a billionth of a second before (could be a trillionth don't quote me) the fact that we still have kids thinking that PLUTO IS A PLANET when that is no longer considered true?!

The problem is that radical Christians, Muslims, etc don't want to talk about Science and radical atheists who assert how their beliefs are based on "logic", "reason" and "science" don't want to talk about anything scientific that provides rational, logical empirical evidence that provides evidence for questioning their current belief systems - in other words anything scientific that would question an atheistic (vs. agnostic) world view, is uncomfortable for them.

I long for the day when truly open minds from whatever belief system will accept the fact that ALL BELIEFS are by definition irrational and if we don't continue to question them - consistently - the unshakeable desire for the truth will never be fulfilled.

So the hard core christians can go right ahead believing that atheists are going to "hell"

And the hard core atheists can go ahead believing that the quantum mechanical implications of the observer affect, string theory, the scientifically irrefutable implication that the presence of information and DNA has on the assumption of an infinitely aware and powerful consciousness at the level where all the 4 forces of nature - strong force, weak force,electromagneticism and gravity converge - by yelling "You believe in a pie in the sky fairy!!!"
And the reality is that both of them are behaving just as disillusionally and ignoring the power and beauty of bother direct personal, intuitive experience and scientific, empirical observation (knowledge from WITHIN and knowledge from WITHOUT)

The reason why christianity gets attacked so much, is because christians don't fight back nor do they usually sue.

Attack muslims publicly and you will get sued by the ACLU. ACORN would be camping outside your house , calling you bigot, hater and a number of other names. If you call out a muslim in many nations....you will probably lose your head.

Attack a jew publicly and you will blasted an anti-semit

Attack a Christian and nothing happens expect you get a slap on the back from the rest of the misfit progressives.

Why do you think bullys only pick on the kids that don't fight back? They know that if they pick on someone that will swing back, that they might get their ass kicked!

 

[emp]

Actually, I attack all religious belief systems (had some interesting discussions with Muslims and Mormons as well as Christians).

Sadly, living in a Christian country, it is the Christians getting on my nerve the most.

::emp::

 

[allco]

I don't want to get in the middle of the Jihad going down in this thread...... (haha j/k)

So many posts seem to make so much sense...

the bible is not a scientific document all though it does contain great moral and ethical truth.

yeah, Maybe the Bible was written as a book of Metophors by a really creative writer/poet/philosopher and it's not meant to be taken literally.

Didn't Buddha write something to the effect of: There are commandments to live by, but if one tries to learn and follow each commandment, he/she will be blocked/controlled by those very commandments and learn nothing. One must come to know the commandments through their individual experience and this will bring them to their enlightenment. (?)

Meaning: If you follow what is written (or what you're told to) - you'll never know for yourself (or yourself). You will only know what a mistake is when you experience a mistake and recognize it (then apply yourself to a solution).

With all due respect, what does Jesus have to do with wave-particle duality, .................

Maybe nothing. 2 different facets of life

The problem is that radical Christians, Muslims, etc don't want to talk about Science and radical atheists who assert how their beliefs are based on "logic", "reason" and "science" don't want to talk about anything scientific............ that provides rational, logical empirical evidence that provides evidence for questioning their current belief systems - in other words anything scientific that would question an atheistic (vs. agnostic) world view, is uncomfortable for them.

I long for the day when truly open minds from whatever belief system will accept the fact that ALL BELIEFS are by definition irrational and if we don't continue to question them - consistently - the unshakeable desire for the truth will never be fulfilled.

Maybe they are all living too much in their (negative-stubborn) ego, and this is what is blocking them from their truth.

Maybe the truth is all beliefs (science + religion + whatever) need to coexist and this is what makes up life. One needs the other, to nudge each other along, to continually grow.

Positive can't be positive without negative. Negative can't be negative without positive.

Both are needed to start and operate the car. (?)


/goodnight

 

[xentech]

Why does christianity always end up being the focus of stuff when discussing belief systems. First of all, NEWS FLASH!!!, there are religions far older than Christianity. Further, the bible is not a scientific document all though it does contain great moral and ethical truth. With all due respect, what does Jesus have to do with wave-particle duality, the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle, String Theory, multivariable calculus, the short comings of the 14th Chapter of the Origin of Species, the fact that scientists themselves have not developed a theory about what happened before the big bang, specifically 1/100th of a billionth of a second before (could be a trillionth don't quote me) the fact that we still have kids thinking that PLUTO IS A PLANET when that is no longer considered true?!

The problem is that radical Christians, Muslims, etc don't want to talk about Science and radical atheists who assert how their beliefs are based on "logic", "reason" and "science" don't want to talk about anything scientific that provides rational, logical empirical evidence that provides evidence for questioning their current belief systems - in other words anything scientific that would question an atheistic (vs. agnostic) world view, is uncomfortable for them.

I long for the day when truly open minds from whatever belief system will accept the fact that ALL BELIEFS are by definition irrational and if we don't continue to question them - consistently - the unshakeable desire for the truth will never be fulfilled.

So the hard core christians can go right ahead believing that atheists are going to "hell"

And the hard core atheists can go ahead believing that the quantum mechanical implications of the observer affect, string theory, the scientifically irrefutable implication that the presence of information and DNA has on the assumption of an infinitely aware and powerful consciousness at the level where all the 4 forces of nature - strong force, weak force,electromagneticism and gravity converge - by yelling "You believe in a pie in the sky fairy!!!"
And the reality is that both of them are behaving just as disillusionally and ignoring the power and beauty of bother direct personal, intuitive experience and scientific, empirical observation (knowledge from WITHIN and knowledge from WITHOUT)

Because most outspoken atheists are from predominantly Christian countries. You don't see many atheists from Iraq debating Islam do you? No, because they would be killed.

 

[turbolapp]

Actually, I attack all religious belief systems (had some interesting discussions with Muslims and Mormons as well as Christians).

Sadly, living in a Christian country, it is the Christians getting on my nerve the most.

::emp::

Emp you and I have said that many many times. It doesn't matter, they'll still cry about how we only attack Christianity. We've established that the religious are brain damaged, so perhaps that's why they don't understand?

For the slow: All Religion is a fallacy of logic by it's very nature. Therefore, most Atheists have rejected it. I bet you Christians (and perhaps a few Muslims) got a kick out that woman that believed she had been impregnated by a 4th dimensional alien...yeah that's how we feel about you. I'm not sure why you see yourself as different.

 

[emp]

The problem is that radical Christians, Muslims, etc don't want to talk about Science and radical atheists who assert how their beliefs are based on "logic", "reason" and "science" don't want to talk about anything scientific that provides rational, logical empirical evidence that provides evidence for questioning their current belief systems - in other words anything scientific that would question an atheistic (vs. agnostic) world view, is uncomfortable for them.

Fuck no.

Yes, I might feel strange about it, but with scientific evidence I would have to yield and start going to church.

However, "lack of X" is not evidence, nor is "God made it" or "It says so in this old book".

To clarify my points:
- (supposed) Lack of an evolutionary link does not make creationism true.
- Lack of an explanation fo the origin of the Universe does not a God maketh.
- If the Bible would make God true, then the Edda would make all the norse Gods a reality.

::emp::

 

[hellblazer]

Emp you and I have said that many many times. It doesn't matter, they'll still cry about how we only attack Christianity. We've established that the religious are brain damaged, so perhaps that's why they don't understand?

For the slow: All Religion is a fallacy of logic by it's very nature. Therefore, most Atheists have rejected it. I bet you Christians (and perhaps a few Muslims) got a kick out that woman that believed she had been impregnated by a 4th dimensional alien...yeah that's how we feel about you. I'm not sure why you see yourself as different.

wow...weird that you have to demonize people you have disagreements with..