Hiring a web programmer / designer

[katoved]

I met with an experienced programmer/designer today. I was wondering if WF members would like to include information in this thread to help myself and others. For examples, below are three tips that I would suggest to anyone working with designers/coders to complete a project for you:

1. Verify their information. Get a photocopy of their ID and call references.
2. Set a project timeline. Start and finish date. Have goals that must be met, and pay when those goals are met. I usually pay in fifths. So every 20% of the project completion gets a payment.
3. I call this the 20/80 rules. 20% of your website explains the other 80%. So the upper navigation bar and upper graphics generally dictate what your site is about and helps the designer/coder. Draw it by hand if you have to, its the most important part of your site.

 

[Ben]

This is good advice. Setting up a detailed timeline is not only good for you, but for the designer/coder. For big projects I would suggest using online project management software.

 

[Reefer420]

i am currently hiring a programmer team from india for $1200. For that I get a month of dedicated support while they set up my site, tweak it as I see needed, etc. Is that a good deal? I haven't signed anything yet- but I am going through a friend of mine whose company does the outsourcing, so I am hoping it is...

What I am doing in terms of the design- I am NOT in anyway artistic, so I have just been using microsoft paint. I take screen shots of other sites which have features like what I am looking for- then cut and paste each section into a new paint file. This way I have actually made a very clear design of what I want, and I am not just doing it freehand and sending it to them!

 

[ToddW]

I've NEVER paid until the project was completed and how I've wanted it. I've used multiple people from eLance including some from India and other places.

My current designer is out of USA too and we've been workign together almost a year and he trusts me to pay him whenever he needs the money(Cost $ to send $ via WU to him so we don't do it every project unless he needs it then.) and sometimes we work on profit share of websites we are working on together.

I would NOT ever pay half up front and half on delivery wya to risk especially on larger projects. Your idea of paying in 5ths is a good one I think.

 

[Ben]

I've NEVER paid until the project was completed and how I've wanted it. I've used multiple people from eLance including some from India and other places.

My current designer is out of USA too and we've been workign together almost a year and he trusts me to pay him whenever he needs the money(Cost $ to send $ via WU to him so we don't do it every project unless he needs it then.) and sometimes we work on profit share of websites we are working on together.

I would NOT ever pay half up front and half on delivery wya to risk especially on larger projects. Your idea of paying in 5ths is a good one I think.

Not getting half up front, or working on some sort of pay system, is shitty for the designers/coders. I've been screwed over countless times in my younger days. If you find a good designer/coder/client you stick with them and treat them well! All three are very hard to find.

 

[Reefer420]

the deal i worked out is 30%/30%/ and 40% at completion.

 

[katoved]

Great advice everyone. Thanks for the input. Great job on the microsoft paint idea. I usually print out pages I like, then hand draw the final site layout using different elements from diff sites. Your paint idea will probably help me a lot. However, I usually like to incorporate my own color schemes.

 

[Arc_Con]

Great advice everyone. Thanks for the input. Great job on the microsoft paint idea. I usually print out pages I like, then hand draw the final site layout using different elements from diff sites. Your paint idea will probably help me a lot. However, I usually like to incorporate my own color schemes.

Good. Good luck to you then.

 

[Reefer420]

what would you consider the most important aspects of your contract? i haven't signed mine yet- but I was going to make sure it gives me the legal right of any work they do for me while under contract, obviously payment terms and costs... but what about non-compete clauses or anything? I wouldn't want them to think 'hey good idea' and come up w/ a copycat site right after I launch mine..

 

[wickedDUDE]

what would you consider the most important aspects of your contract? i haven't signed mine yet- but I was going to make sure it gives me the legal right of any work they do for me while under contract, obviously payment terms and costs... but what about non-compete clauses or anything? I wouldn't want them to think 'hey good idea' and come up w/ a copycat site right after I launch mine..

I agree... what's a good way to protect our own design/idea/graphics, etc. from being copied? There should be a statement in the contract that says something like you are now allowed to use any of the code you generate on any other site... or something along those lines.

 

[Someone]

Contracts are a moot point if you're dealing international.

Your tips sound great. The only thing I'd add is make sure he/she knows their stuff. A lot of people are good at talkin' the talk.

 

[Jon]

Goodluck finding a reliable and trustworthy programmer. In all my years online, I have encountered a mere handful. It's like finding a diamond in the rough, very rare and oh so valuable to you, so don't let them go!

I'm alwaaaaays looking for new programmers, but the quality I've found blows a fat one. Especially the American ones (most of them outsource to India or Eastern Europe anyway). The American ones are such dickheads because they rape you on the quote, and never come through on the desired date of the project completion. It's pretty annoying.

 

[katoved]

True that, I have had a hard time finding quality talent as well. We shall see how this goes. I should have recorded the sit down with the programmer today. I would have made a documentary about the "web development" process from an entrepreneur's perspective. What do you think about that idea? It might even help me launch the site.

 

[atomic]

I have done 95 projects on rentacoder. And I would say only about 4 went off without a hitch. Those 4 were all very small projects (coding a script function, fixing a bug, etc.)

What I have learned:

1. Coders never meet deadlines. Write deadlines all you want, good luck. If deadlines are met, the job is not really complete. If they're building a car for you, they put on the paint job and armor all the tires, but there's no engine under the hood.

2. Coders have ADD. Coders tend to work on different parts of the project at once. Presumably they get bored and never finish core functionality of any single part. Instead, they will work on other parts of the project; when they do inevitably quit/give up/demand money, you are left with a mess of a project. No one area being completed.

3. Unsupervised, coders will screw around until they need money. On rentacoder, they payout on the 15th and the 30th. This means you won't see any real progress on a project until the 14th or the 29th when your coder suddenly marks it complete and starts begging you to accept it as finished, giving you no time at all to properly test it for bugs. This never fails.

4. Every coder promises they will be there to fix bugs. 90% of them do not help you. The 10% that do, will help you for a short while, but soon they grow tired of new bugs you discover. (Even though it was their shitty skills that are to blame.) I guess they see no money in it anymore and convince themselves it is no longer their responsibility. Promises or not. Coders seem to have zero integrity in this regard.

5. Almost every coder I have worked with tries to get creative. With desktop applications this is even more common. They will begin to add new menus or screens that were never in the specs. Of course, this wastes their time and then yours when you have to point out all this stuff they need to get rid of.

I hope this helps you avoid some pitfalls. I for one am going to try a different outsourcing solution. A friend of a friend raves about odesk and it looks promising. Their criteria for accepting coders into their talent pool seems to be stricter than rentacoder or elance and they also offer some interesting tools (e.g. screenshots at intervals) for monitoring progress. This should at least let's you immediately identify slackers and fire them immediately.

Hope this helps!

 

[DavidR]

I have done 95 projects on rentacoder. And I would say only about 4 went off without a hitch. Those 4 were all very small projects (coding a script function, fixing a bug, etc.)

What I have learned:

1. Coders never meet deadlines. Write deadlines all you want, good luck. If deadlines are met, the job is not really complete. If they're building a car for you, they put on the paint job and armor all the tires, but there's no engine under the hood.

2. Coders have ADD. Coders tend to work on different parts of the project at once. Presumably they get bored and never finish core functionality of any single part. Instead, they will work on other parts of the project; when they do inevitably quit/give up/demand money, you are left with a mess of a project. No one area being completed.

3. Unsupervised, coders will screw around until they need money. On rentacoder, they payout on the 15th and the 30th. This means you won't see any real progress on a project until the 14th or the 29th when your coder suddenly marks it complete and starts begging you to accept it as finished, giving you no time at all to properly test it for bugs. This never fails.

4. Every coder promises they will be there to fix bugs. 90% of them do not help you. The 10% that do, will help you for a short while, but soon they grow tired of new bugs you discover. (Even though it was their shitty skills that are to blame.) I guess they see no money in it anymore and convince themselves it is no longer their responsibility. Promises or not. Coders seem to have zero integrity in this regard.

5. Almost every coder I have worked with tries to get creative. With desktop applications this is even more common. They will begin to add new menus or screens that were never in the specs. Of course, this wastes their time and then yours when you have to point out all this stuff they need to get rid of.

I hope this helps you avoid some pitfalls. I for one am going to try a different outsourcing solution. A friend of a friend raves about odesk and it looks promising. Their criteria for accepting coders into their talent pool seems to be stricter than rentacoder or elance and they also offer some interesting tools (e.g. screenshots at intervals) for monitoring progress. This should at least let's you immediately identify slackers and fire them immediately.

Hope this helps!

You haven't met very solid developers in your entire life, have you? I've never missed a deadline. I don't have ADD, but I do work on multiple parts of the system at once because sometimes you just have to build modules concurrently or they won't work properly. Also, working on multiple parts helps me architect the entire application because all the pieces are fresh in my head.

I am just about always unsupervised when I'm working because I work better when I can focus and so do the other developers on my team.

Coders have no integrity when it comes to fixing bugs? Your argument is starting to sound more and more like you've hired amateurs instead of real developers. You don't have a fucking clue.

Web developers are supposed to be creative; it's part of their job description. I'm always getting praised for my work because I go beyond the "specs" and develop applications that look good and have solid interfaces. It's true that I am a rare developer to be able to create nice designs, but so what? Any developer worth their salt is nothing like the amateurs you described.

 

[atomic]

Your argument is starting to sound more and more like you've hired amateurs instead of real developers. You don't have a fucking clue.

Maybe it's you who don't have a fucking clue.

It sounds like you have your shit together and do a good job. However, you are in the minority.

The reality is these problems crop up all the time in the real world. It is impossible to vett coders on these outsourcing sites like you would in a real face-to-face interview. You can't discuss past experience, you can't contact references. etc. All you get to see is a list of Microsoft certifications and their self-serving bio of how great they are. Being a coder yourself, maybe you haven't had to deal with this side of it. But that's how it is.

What I posted is a reality check for anyone hiring coders using these outsourcing places.

Don't get mad at me, get mad at the dipshits who are giving your occupation a bad name. A good coder is worth his/her weight in gold.

Shit, anybody truly good at anything is valuable to your business! Good job at being one of those people. But beware, you're going the way of the dinosaur and dodo bird.

 

[DavidR]

Maybe it's you who don't have a fucking clue.

Trust me, I know all about the shitty programmers. They give real developers bad names. You shouldn't be looking for "coders". You probably shouldn't look at someone with Microsoft certifications either. I have a friend who is a Solutions Architect at Microsoft and he's an MCSA (Microsoft Certified Solutions Architect). He told me he passed the ENTIRE exam in 15 minutes. It's a joke.

It sounds like you have your shit together and do a good job. However, you are in the minority.

I guess I shouldn't be too hard on you. There's a reason all the best developers aren't on the market.

The reality is these problems crop up all the time in the real world. It is impossible to vett coders on these outsourcing sites like you would in a real face-to-face interview. You can't discuss past experience, you can't contact references. etc. All you get to see is a list of Microsoft certifications and their self-serving bio of how great they are. Being a coder yourself, maybe you haven't had to deal with this side of it. But that's how it is.

Why can't you interview them? Why can't you discuss past experience and contact references? What is stopping you from doing that? I'm not a coder. I'm a developer.

What I posted is a reality check for anyone hiring coders using these outsourcing places.

Perhaps you shouldn't just focus on these outsourcing websites.

Don't get mad at me, get mad at the dipshits who are giving your occupation a bad name. A good coder is worth his/her weight in gold.

Trust me, I have had many run-ins with coders who think they are hot shit. And every time someone talks shit about the entire industry, it pisses me off. People on rentacoder are probably there for a reason. I'm sure some of them are good, but it's rare. Hell, I'm sure good developers on monster.com and careerbuilder.com are hard to find.