Looks like America WILL have National Health Care after tonight

Before 1979 education wasn't a federal issue. Before that kids were arguably smarter than they've ever been. So why is federal education a good idea?

(citation needed)

Actually there's evidence that the generation of kids immediately before 1979 were the least smart, and it's been getting better since 1980. Source: Who is the Real 'Dumbest Generation'? - washingtonpost.com

And a pertinent excerpt:

"...the long-term results of the National Assessment of Educational Progress (NAEP), which is housed within the U.S. Department of Education. Considered the gold standard in assessing K-12 students, the NAEP has been in continuous operation for decades. Here's the bottom line: On both the reading and the math tests, and at all three tested ages (9, 13 and 17), the lowest-ever scores in the history of the NAEP were recorded by children born between 1961 and 1965.

The same pattern shows up in SAT scores. The SAT reached its all-time high in 1963, when it tested the 1946 birth cohort (including such notables as Gilda Radner and Oliver Stone). Then it fell steeply for 17 straight years, hitting its all-time low in 1980, when it tested the 1963 cohort (Mike Myers, Quentin Tarantino). Ever since, the SAT has been gradually if haltingly on the rise, paralleling improvements in the NAEP. In 2005, teens born in 1988 scored better on the combined SAT than any teens born since 1956 -- and better on the math SAT than any teens born since 1951."
 


*A tax credit becomes available for some small businesses to help provide coverage for workers.

I can't find anything about this on any pdf or site except that Factbox link. Anyone know anything about it?
 
I stay out of these threads because they consume too much time and time means fucking dollars.

I do want to remind you guys that if you look carefully- no woman on this forum is ever on the same line as the men who make it happen. Riddarhuset, turbolapp, BlueYonder they all, always embrace plans of supposed security, safety, care etc. above any libertarian initiative. I suppose because ultimately that's the keepsake of a woman. Re-read this thread and see the point yourself. Re-read threads regarding most social issues and you will see it again.

PS: no personal attack towards the girls. just sayin'

I concur with emp, that was pretty stupid. For so many reasons I don't have time to list them all but lets starts with sample size. 3? Way to base results off of that steller representation of the community. Also, I know of a few other ladies on here that would most likely disagree with me on quite a few points in my ideologies (Phillian you want to get in on this?) and finally while I respect the opinions of the other ladies, our politics are vastly different in many respects. To throw us together because we have vaginas is extremely annoying.
 
The free market leads to consolidation and serfdom just short of monopoly
So why were East Germans worse off than the West Germans who had freer markets?

Why is Cuba the way it is? Soviet Russia? No free markets there!

Those were countries with no real markets, and the people were not only serfs, they had a standard of living decades behind the west.
 
So why were East Germans worse off than the West Germans who had freer markets?

Why is Cuba the way it is? Soviet Russia? No free markets there!

Those were countries with no real markets, and the people were not only serfs, they had a standard of living decades behind the west.

Is anyone here really arguing against any free market at all? Sounds like a straw man.

Personally I think free markets have their place, as do public services. IMO, basic necessities should be public services and equally available to all. Anything beyond that should be free market.
 
Is anyone here really arguing against any free market at all? Sounds like a straw man.
That's how his statement read to me. He said that markets lead to misery.

I just read it again, and his argument is that competition leads to monopoly. Amazing cognitive dissonance.

IMO, basic necessities should be public services and equally available to all.
Please name some of the basic necessities that should be available to all, regardless of production, merit or effort.

Anything beyond that should be free market.
Why? If the market can't provide basic necessities, why would you use it to provide more complicated and higher order goods?
 
So why were East Germans worse off than the West Germans who had freer markets?
You're comparing apples to apples. Both East and West Germany had a public health care system, and health of their citizens was better than Americans' in both countries. For far less cost. Ditto the rest of Europe and most of the world. East German economic problems had nothing to do with guaranteeing health care services.

Protecting citizens from bankruptcy isn't doing any country any harm.
 
*A tax credit becomes available for some small businesses to help provide coverage for workers.

What Obama's Health Care Reform Means for Small Businesses

By 2014, states must set up Small Business Health Options Programs – aka "SHOP Exchanges" – essentially purchasing pools where small businesses can club together to buy insurance. What's defined as a "small business"? Those with no more than 100 employees, though states can limit the pools to companies with 50 or fewer employees through 2016. Companies that outgrow the size limit will be grandfathered in.

The pools will probably only slightly shrink your insurance costs: The nonpartisan Congressional Budget Office predicts small-group premiums will fall by 1 to 4 percent thanks to the exchanges. (Unfortunately, the premiums may rise considerably before they fall. Health care insurance consultant Robert Laszewski told the Wall Street Journal that plans will want to make as much money as possible before the wide-sweeping reforms take effect in 2014.)

Companies with fewer than 50 workers won't face penalties if they don't offer insurance. If you have 25 or fewer employees and a work force with an average pay of up to $40,000, you can get tax credits to help buy insurance: up to 35 percent of the cost of the premiums this year, rising to 50 percent in 2014. (You'll have to pay at least half of the total premium cost or 50 percent of a benchmark premium to qualify.) Full credits will be available for the smallest firms with the lowest-paid workers (10 or fewer employees and average yearly wages of less than $25,000); the subsidies shrink as companies' size and average pay rise. The tax breaks – estimated to affect about 12 percent of employees covered by small-group insurance -- will last for the first two years a company buys insurance through its state exchange. The breaks should lower the cost of insuring affected employees by 8 to 11 percent, estimates the Congressional Budget Office.

If you provide health insurance coverage to retirees age 55 to 64 who aren't eligible for Medicare, the legislation includes what's being called a "temporary reinsurance program" that begins no later than 90 days from the moment Obama signs the bill and expires Jan. 1, 2014. The program will reimburse employers or insurers for 80 percent of retiree claims between $15,000 and $90,000.

Companies with more than 50 employees that don't offer coverage would be fined up to $750 per worker if any employees rely on government subsidies to buy coverage. The compromise bill the Senate will consider this week will hike the fine to $2,000 per full-time employee. The first 30 workers are excluded, but two part-time employees will count as one full-time one for purposes of penalty calculation.

mandatory 4 characters
 
The government runs the biggest rebill scam in history. Taxes. In the end this bill will just waste more tax money and not benefit the right people.

I see this all day, everyday, as a citizen of Philadelphia. In fact, I saw someone retweet "Obama got us free healthcare and unemployment got another extension. This is going to be a good summer."

This kind of mentality, which is frankly epidemic here in Philly- makes me want to give vomit. Or give up. I'm not sure which yet.

I worked for the gubbmint fighting fires for 9 years. I've personally figured out how to spend the remaining 125k in our budget, simply so our budget wouldn't get reduced the following year.

This happens all the time in every government department. I knew an Air Force officer stationed at the Pentagon who handed me a catalog from Levenger and told me to order anything I wanted out of it. I had no idea what she was talking about. Turns out their department didn't spend their budget so they were ordering "office supplies" so that their budget wouldn't get reduced.

Needless to say, I didn't select anything and our friendship ended shortly thereafter.
 

How about you actually reply to the assertions people are making.

You posted your tiny bit about education and you've been called out by many members who made many different valid points, yet you haven't responded to any except only to make fun of hellblazer. I don't even believe that you posted that original statement with the sentiments guerilla mentioned...or else you would have brought it up in response to the criticism on your post.

Seriously I think guerilla just has a hard-on for you and it seems to be the reason he's had your back more than once. Everybody else seems to think you don't know wtf you're talking about and until you actually back it up...I think that's true.
 
I stay out of these threads because they consume too much time and time means fucking dollars.

I do want to remind you guys that if you look carefully- no woman on this forum is ever on the same line as the men who make it happen. Riddarhuset, turbolapp, BlueYonder they all, always embrace plans of supposed security, safety, care etc. above any libertarian initiative. I suppose because ultimately that's the keepsake of a woman. Re-read this thread and see the point yourself. Re-read threads regarding most social issues and you will see it again.

You are wrong.

I am a fiscally conservative, socially progressive, pro-2nd amendment, constitutionally literalist libertarian.

I own guns, vote, and subscribe to the crazy notion that the foremost responsibility of a citizen is PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY. I believe the Constitution was explicitly written to preserve personal freedom by outlining the LIMITED powers of a federal government. Church and state should be completely separate, local and states rights should precede federal mandate and private property - and private lives- shall not be infringed through government oversight. Even if it is under the auspices of "care".

And I have a vagina.
 
I see this all day, everyday, as a citizen of Philadelphia. In fact, I saw someone retweet "Obama got us free healthcare and unemployment got another extension. This is going to be a good summer."

This kind of mentality, which is frankly epidemic here in Philly- makes me want to give vomit. Or give up. I'm not sure which yet.

This is why our city is in the shitter. Philadelphia is easily becoming the trashiest city in the country. The people here are horrible and the government makes it twice as bad.
 
Seriously I think guerilla just has a hard-on for you and it seems to be the reason he's had your back more than once.
I do like Turbo. She's my friend. She's my friend, because she has an interest in the same social and political ideas I am interested in. If she was a vacuous moron then I wouldn't give her the time of day.

As far as having her back, I gave her a very tough time for her positions in your Nickycakes drama thread. Or did you already forget about that?

Some of the grownups on here are friendly and have depth, deal with it.

Everybody else seems to think you don't know wtf you're talking about and until you actually back it up...I think that's true.
What she said was simple and true. If you don't understand it, after I explained it further and she followed up on that, then that is on you and the limits of your intelligence.
 
How about you actually reply to the assertions people are making.

You posted your tiny bit about education and you've been called out by many members who made many different valid points, yet you haven't responded to any except only to make fun of hellblazer. I don't even believe that you posted that original statement with the sentiments guerilla mentioned...or else you would have brought it up in response to the criticism on your post.

Seriously I think guerilla just has a hard-on for you and it seems to be the reason he's had your back more than once. Everybody else seems to think you don't know wtf you're talking about and until you actually back it up...I think that's true.

Bingo

Turbo is just one of those bleeding hearts that thinks that everything has to be "fair" or at least that it should be "fair". She fails to realize, as do a certain amount of Americas population, that it is up to each and every one of us to make our own way in life and to get the shit we want.

Everyone has options, but until the government and to a certain extent the citizens of this country finally let people either fail or succeed, we will be nothing but a welfare country.

Shit, many states now even have programs where the poor get free cell phones and free minutes to use. For what? Are cell phones now a right?

It's bullshit how all of these programs get passed and people that actually make their own way get absolutely NO BENEFIT from them. Just like this health care stuff, me personally, and most of the people on this forum will get no benefit, we won't get free insurance, we will only have to pay for the leeches of the country to get free insurance.

Instead of "reforming" health care, they are just taking it over. In the coming years, that will become more and more obvious as all personal preferences are removed and replaced with guidelines and rules outlining what we can do and what we can't do with our health care.
 
Turbo is just one of those bleeding hearts that thinks that everything has to be "fair" or at least that it should be "fair".
Can you point out where she claimed this? I just checked all of her posts in this thread, and didn't see it.