How NOT to get burned doing business on the internet

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Jan

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Aug 6, 2006
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www.jansideas.com
I hope some of the members with some real experience add to this thread. I think it's needed because there are too many netpreneurs paying for work and not getting anything for it.

  • Small (time/money) jobs pay at completion/delivery.
  • Medium (time/money) jobs pay 1/2 up front and 1/2 at completion/delivery.
  • Large and extra large (time/money) jobs pay in increments. Pay a percentage (1/3-1/10) depending on the size of job, as work is completed.
  • When paying in increments, before making another payment, get complete access to work done so far, not just a "picture" of the work. That way the person who did the work is getting money as they go, and in the event (on purpose or unplanned circumstances) the work cannot be completed, you have something to take elsewhere for completion and the money available to pay someone else.
  • Set up deadlines with grace periods for work to be completed, payment made, and when project will be taken to someone else for completions if not being worked on.
  • When making business/transaction arrangements save those IM's and emails.
  • Money is motivating and once some people have it, they may not be as motivated. Have them earn as they go.
Keep in mind I don't have the funds to pay for any work at this time, so I don't have personal experience. Most of the above is just common sense. Even with the best references, life happens and sometimes a project cannot be completed due to illness, injury, accidents, etc. Keep yourself protected! Be slow to hand over money.
 


Jan,

Great thread, and some excellent suggestions. I work and have worked on both sides of the equation, so I can provide some other thoughts...

Delays Do Happen
For a variety of reasons, vendors and services suppliers will promise one thing and be unable to fulfill it. Most of these reasons are perfectly legitimate, and as the client you can oftentimes be a significant factor. For instance, if you're sourcing a graphic designer to do creative work, and they supply ideas that you aren't happy with - that will start the "delay ball" rolling. Once a project is behind schedule, its important that you and your designer work together to determine what is holding everything up, and move past it.

Contracts and Proposals are worth the time to get right
Every transaction should have an official contract and / or signed project commission proposal. The contract should have the following things outlined...
- Scope of the project. How long will it take?
- Milestones. When will we know we're heading in the right direction?
- Compensation. What is due and when. Payment method should also be included. Late penalties (on both sides) should be written down.
- Final product. If you're paying for a site design, is it CSS or just a graphical splice? Do you get the raw PSD files? Font libraries? If it's a site development, who gets the rights to the source code?

Local is almost always better
Every city today has a lot of people in the web services biz. Find people that are (relatively) local and you'll likely be a more satisfied customer. If you can, meet them face to face before launching the services. Also, time zone issues and language barriers can be avoided by going local.

You get what you pay for. Seriously.
If you're dealing with people who are doing work at an unbelievably low rate, you're probably not dealing with a true professional. Offshore workers apply to this rule as well.

The clearer your project, the better the product
Designers and developers (even in my case consultants) thrive on specificity. The more specific the problem at hand, the better I can BID on the project and the more likely I'll be ON TIME and ON BUDGET. Vague issues mean vague problems.

Anyways, hope some of those things help.
 
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For the most part, you have good points but I have to disagree with the way that you just assume that the person providing the service will be the one that rips off the buyer.

I hope some of the members with some real experience add to this thread. I think it's needed because there are too many netpreneurs paying for work and not getting anything for it.
  • Small (time/money) jobs pay at completion/delivery.
  • Medium (time/money) jobs pay 1/2 up front and 1/2 at completion/delivery.
  • Large and extra large (time/money) jobs pay in increments. Pay a percentage (1/3-1/10) depending on the size of job, as work is completed.


I perform content writing for WF members at an extremely good rate. It's actually quite ludicrous, if you ask me, but I'm able to do it at a fast pace and I provide good quality for that price and I use the cash for other online ventures that I work on so it all works out. I'm also a fairly trusted member at WF. So when I ask that members with almost no posts and no rep pay me before I spend hours or even days on a project, I don't think that's being unfair at all.

I know that there has been controversy over other people providing a service and not delivering or not delivering what was originally agreed upon, but please don't lump everyone that provides a service into that same category. I know that there are others on this very board that do great work and have a great reputation among members as well. Yoink*gasp* comes to mind.

Keep in mind I don't have the funds to pay for any work at this time, so I don't have personal experience.

It kind of pisses me off that you wrote this up in a manner that insinuates that the buyer is always the one that gets ripped off and the seller is always the scammer, all while never having any personal experience buying or selling on a webmaster forum.

I've never bought real estate in the UK but I figure that it's "common sense" to light any real estate agent in London on fire as a method of torture to make sure he's not lying to me and I get the best possible price.

Should I make a post stating that as fact as an angle for useless positive rep just like you're doing?
 
Geek,

You're right, it is a 2 way street. Lets face it, there are many unpaying clients. The issue at least has come to light on these boards because there have been several examples recently of service vendors not putting their money where their mouth is.

The best way that I've found to avoid issues is to maintain a high level of communication and accountability, as well as keeping payment milestones in reasonable chunks. It's a lot easier to collect things in hundred dollar increments rather than waiting until there's several grand on the line.
 
Geek, Jan said small time projects are paid up front man. I agree with her post completely.

If I am hiring you for 1000 articles to be written, we'll pay as we go with that type of order. I will pay for 100, you deliver, I'll pay for another 100, until I get my order complete.

With huge PHP projects, which I've hired thousands and thousands of dollars of work, following Jan's post is a MUST. I've never been ripped because if they quit working, I quit paying and take what you've given me elsewhere.

Anyways, my tip, pay with a credit card for larger projects ALWAYS. Even if the project goes past 1 month, some credit card companies will still reverse a charge 60 days down the road.

One idea, for elance, if the project is $5000+, use elance's escrow service.
 
Geekcognito-Thank you for seeing the good points! I didn't mean to come across like it is always the buyer who gets ripped off. Getting paid in increments protects both sides if you think about it. So, how about some help on how to not get get burned as a seller since you have the experience? What do you do to protect yourself? Do you just go by rep points (I believe you just posted that they are useless) and number of posts on this forum? This thread is about helping each other out, how about helping out your fellow WF members?

I've started a few threads and have posted on the good transactions and business hookups here on WF, if you look, you can find the threads/posts. Lately there are posts about people paying for services and not getting anything. I think if we can help each other, that can get reduced. What might seem obvious to some (you), might not be to the many noobs lurking and who don't always see the obvious.

If you look at the first line on the thread, I hoped this thread would open up a discussion on suggestions. I'm not targeting either side. If you read the quote, in your post, I never said I don't have experience selling. I actually do writing myself and have been selling articles since last year. so I do have experience in selling, just not buying (I only have one online purchase). I have never been burned myself, so the suggestions have worked for me.

........ as an angle for useless positive rep just like you're doing?

Pretty funny regarding the comment on the positive reps......I'm am not rep motivated, just check through my posts since last Aug. I come to have fun and learn. Last time I checked my rep points don't pay any bills, so there's no reason for the possibility of rep points to influence my posts. :)
 
Hm. Perhaps my post came off as much ruder than I intended. I wasn't attacking you, Jan. My point is just what DaveEMG pointed out: that it is a two way street.

Just like a buyer doesn't want to be ripped off for his hard-earned money, I don't want to send work to someone without first being assured that I won't send something over without having wasted my time and effort. I know that you don't disagree with that, especially since you have now pointed out that you also write content (sorry, I don't look at people's sigs much).

That being said, I look more at a person's overall participation on WF before making a judgment call on whether I would like them to pay first or whether they should pay in increments.

For example, I got a PM from a guy last week that wanted me to write some articles but expected me to write them all first before he paid. He was concerned that I would run off with his money. I assured him that I value my reputation and have always delivered what was asked for. Additionally, I would ask people that I had previously written for if I could use them for a reference so that he could be further assured. This guy had 2 posts on WF at the time (and still does, to my knowledge).

So since it was a "small project" (probably 8 or so hours of my time to complete) should I have automatically done the work and sent it to him even though I had nothing to go on to gauge his character and past business dealings?

I think you would agree with me that the answer is no.

Different scenario: When I first started to offer writing for members of WF, a member with almost 500 posts PMed me for a larger project. He had solid positive rep and was engaged in conversation not only in the "Shooting the Shit" section, but also in other areas of the forum. Constructively as well as showing a sense of humor. I had no problem with him paying partially up front and paying the rest after the project was finished.

So, to answer your question, my "useless rep" statement was not to say that the rep system is not ever a useful indicator of a person's integrity and value to the forum. However, I do believe that a person can post forever on a forum and not get "neg-repped" and be a completely different person during a business transaction. There have been several examples of these posters coming to light in the past couple of months around here.

So it is a complete judgment call. And one that both buyer and seller need to make. While there are tools that will protect you (Paypal, paying with CC) no one really wants to have to hassle with trying to get money out of a person for work done or money back from a person for shoddy or missing work. It's a headache and all-too-often results in more trouble than the monetary value is worth.

My advice (for what it's worth):

For both buyers and sellers:
  • Everyone on here has an IM client. Use it. I can't write for someone unless I know what they want that copy for. Are they selling something? Is it going on an informational site? Are they using Adsense? What are the particular keywords that they want me to hit on? How long are the articles that they want and why do they want that length? I've found that just by talking to someone on IM for 15 minutes, I can gauge not only how I should go about writing for them, but also what kind of person they will be to work with. 99% of the time, my gut feeling is dead on. Sure, people can be much different on IM than in "real life" and it's easy to deceive. However, if you take a person's WF reputation and posting "personality" and combine it with their IM "personality" that gives you much more to go on than you had before.
  • Stay in constant contact via IM or better yet, phone. Some guys I do work for and work with are probably a little annoyed at my updates via IM. It's infinitely easier to just que them up when you see them on and say "here's how it's going..." than to PM someone and not know when they will see it. I do this at least once every two days for guys that I'm doing for that I have their IM names. And I'm getting much better about getting everyone's IM names that I work with. I didn't do this at first and I didn't like it when people felt that they needed to contact me for an update. After all, I did ask them to pay first, they deserve to know what their money is doing for them.
For Sellers:
  • If you have bad news, don't run from it. Spearhead it. I had a death in the family one weekend only to turn around and get strep throat the next. I was able to work maybe three days in that time between so my schedule was all crapped up. I did my best to let everyone know what the deal was, even though it killed me to do so because I felt that I was giving messed up excuses even when I really wasn't. Most or even all of the guys I was doing work for during that time have said that they will be return customers.
  • Stick to your guns about what you will/will not do. I take Paypal because, even though it's a pain in my ass, I have used it for years and I feel that I know its idiosyncrasies. I look at it kind of like Windows that way. I had a guy that really wanted to use my services, but had 0 posts on WF and was telling me that he wouldn't use anything but escrow.com. While many people have reported success with this site, I've never used it before and I don't have time to do the research on it that would make me comfortable using it. Plus, let's face it: if someone doesn't have a Paypal account and they live in the US, more often than not there is a reason. I politely declined the transaction because it just didn't "feel right."
  • Know your limits. If I was charging on WF what I have been paid at print publications, I would be researching for days or even weeks the articles that I write. But no one wanting content for their sites is going to pay that premium so I have adjusted my style to be able to accommodate a far lower price. That means I have to write about things that I already know about or that I can easily research in a flash. I'm no Mac user and I would never be able to write about it properly. I've had to politely turn away three different people because of this. But it's worth it to me and the customer because I wouldn't be delivering them a crap product and they respect my honesty.
For Buyers:
  • Ask for references. Try to get references from trusted members. Anyone can make up 5 different accounts that all say that JonDoeDesigner is the greatest thing since sliced bread. Try to talk to these guys on IM, if they're willing. Sure, the mods would be able to check to see if a person has multiple accounts from a single IP after the fact, but that's the same hassle as having to file a dispute with Paypal. You don't even want to have to do that if you don't want to.
  • Check up on your work. Be polite, of course. IM the seller every once in a while (I don't recommend more than once a day) to say "How's it going?" and shoot the shit with the guy. Hell, I enjoy talking to different people on IM from the forums anyway because it's fun to "talk shop" with different people because I don't know anyone that does IM in "real life." I'm not saying you have to be someone's best friend, but a seller is going to be far more likely to want to finish your project if you are a personable conversationalist and don't come off as their "boss."
  • Be explicit about what you want. Probably every other person that PMs me about articles wants something like "25 articles on pancakes." And I can almost understand that attitude. After all, the whole reason that you hire someone for design or content writing is that you don't want to be bothered with it. However, if you want to get what you want, you are going to have to be as specific as possible. So I always have the customer write out their topic list as well as whatever keywords they would like me to focus on. If I am talking to them on IM and neither of us are rushed for time, I always ask them all the questions I went through before under "Everyone has an IM client." This always makes the transaction much easier and much more pleasant for everyone. I know that designers have to feel the same way about this.
Whew, ok that was long. But I hope that it cleared up any misconception that my previous post may have portrayed that I was attacking Jan. I wasn't. I just want everyone to know that it's not all "common sense" when dealing with others online and that many times disputes could have been prevented with just a little bit of forward-thinking and some good ol' communication.

Also, these tips came off the top of my head (yes, I really am that verbose) so if I think of any more I will post them in this thread.

I hope that this helps.
 
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Jan, you know owe Geek $25.11 for that post.

1,674 words * $0.015 = $25.11, pay up or you'll get burned!
 
illusion, damn, you beat me to it. I saw this long post and thought the EXACT same thing. LOL.

Well, if you needed proof that he enjoys writing..........
 
Money is motivating and once some people have it, they may not be as motivated. Have them earn as they go.
With good coders its actually the other way around. I have never ever ever in my life delivered a project on time for someone who pays afterwards. When you are a good coder, charging $35 - $50/ho, you have lots of clients, you have people begging you to work for them because they can't find anyone else who knows what the hell they are taking about. Those clients who pay upfront get moved up on the priority list, not only because I'd know they pay, but because once they paid I feel sort of obliged to work for them because I feel like I owe them the work.
 
I agree that you need to be very specific - the site I currently am having built would be a mess if I hadn't chopped together some quick MS Paint outlines of how I wanted it to look, and hadn't written a 10 page paper on the details. I use letters on the image file to corespond to the details on the paper.

As they make the design, I am very specific as to where they need to make changes - and make screen shots that I again change around to visually show them where they need to change things.

Without my constant attention (2-3 hours a day on this for a month) this site would be a mess - but they are great at getting things done once I point it out to them, so I can't complain too much. Its just hard to other people (and other people who don't speak english well) to see your vision the way you do.
 
Talking about being very specific on your project, here's a good, easy way to get a good programmer work for you - hand him finished HTML web pages with all the design, and tell him to program the PHP/ASP/etc for you.

Programmers love to program. Programmers HATE:

1. Clients who don't know what the hell they want. These are people who say they want X and when they get it they say "No, actually, how about trying Y". If you do that, you're basically shitting on hours upon hours of someone's work.

2. Clients who build requirements upon requirements. They say they want X, and when they get it, they say "OK, that looks good, how about adding this there, that there, this there, that there, and that bit here, ok?"
FUCK OFF. The reason for this is that by the time your project is finished, they already have 10 more fun ones on the waiting list.

3. Doing HTML work. It's really boring, seriously. For a good programmer, PHP is already a stretch, because it's so goddamn easy it gets boring fast, HTML is worse, it isn't even a programming language. Watching paint dry is more fun.

4. Doing design work. It's that right-left side of the brain thing. If you ask a programmer what a good design is, he'll show you craigslist.



The solution to all these problems? Hand him finished HTML files so he can do what he really wants to do. And you may even get your project done on time.
 
I love this thread

Local is almost always better
very city today has a lot of people in the web services biz. Find people that are (relatively) local and you'll likely be a more satisfied customer. If you can, meet them face to face before launching the services. Also, time zone issues and language barriers can be avoided by going local.

I agree with that in theory, that said I would suggest to pick up you developers / designers etc. who
work on the same time zone you are in. I have managed some large scale projects dealing with offshore companies
and in 90% we could have deliver the product much faster if we had being using a company who works in the same time zone.

Clients who build requirements upon requirements. They say they want X, and when they get it, they say "OK, that looks good, how about adding this there, that there, this there, that there, and that bit here, ok?"
FUCK OFF. The reason for this is that by the time your project is finished, they already have 10 more fun ones on the waiting list.

You are absolutely right. You have to know what you want, you know why ? because it's a hell a lot cheaper to fix things
written in word (I use textmate) then in code. don't get me wrong, we are human and we all make mistakes, I know I do all the time
but it's a whole different to have a design gap and architecture gap.
I was reading about the Keywords long tail approach (which was new to me), it works the same way with projects. If you know how to be specific and handle the right analysis and the requirements for your project, there is no reason to have delays (when you set up the time line for you project as a thumb rule always add 30% for testing and debugging) in delivery.

Just my 2 cents.
 
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