John, when I had some clients who were amatures in the mid to late 90's Rober Washington (not a client, won heavy weight in 98 or 99 at USA I think) told me that once he turned pro he would never compete because he pissed off Joe's brother or something. I don't remember exactly what happened but he told me that Jay would be Mr. O in his early 30's because he was going to build a huge fan base cause he was on the Weider tit. Did he not turn pro at 22 or something? Most turn pro in the mid to late 20's and win the O in there 30's when there bodies are "mature" shows the best muscle. anyway my point is Jay just had to stay alive to win. I forget his name but around the same time Jay turned pro there was a guy who was on his way to the top and they were saying he would win the O, he now pisses and shits in a bag! why, his body could not take the over induction of roids. If you took a small cycle like Zane and Arnold did in the late 60's well anyone could handle that but these guys are doing 4 or 5 times that amount and they are not cycling anymore. I would hate to be there livers!