Looks like America WILL have National Health Care after tonight

Fucking bullshit, enough is enough!

This makes me want to go get active so bad, i might go out and just start going into wal-mart with a microphone just start scream 9/11 was an inside job.

Im done time to learn all the loopholes and say fuck this.
 


Wow.. just wow.

Of all the things going on in the republican American's mind of today, this is the one that puzzles me the most.

How can one be against public healthcare?

"The poor are robbing us" is just a wrong way of looking at it. As a healthy, young male, I know you feel invioncible, but you are not. Illness, accidents or even chronic health problems can befall anyone and shove you from your self-righteous throne pretty quickly.

I AM doing something with my life and I am working hard to earn my little luxuries. But with all the health-related shit going on with me, I know I would be either dead or over the head in debt if I was living in the US.

But let's go to the other arguments on your side: as in "capitalism makes competition makes healthcare be good"

That is utter crap.

In the last two decades Germany did two things.
1) Privatize clinics (costs down, more competition, yadda, yadda)
2) Cut budgets

Well.. whaddayaknow... good healthcare COSTS. Sometimes it costs so much that it will not be profitable.

This said, the privatized clinics (and senior homes) are the worst places you'd want to be in, because in order to make a profit, the providers will skimp on everything.

Personell? Waaay too little. Think entire stations run by 1 nurse at night.
Equipment? Old or nonexistent
Hygiene? Taken down to a minimum

The place Germany has on that WHO list is because of the public healthcare sector and the fact that the government is trying to steer back from privatizing.

As I said, being against public healthcare just makes absolutely no sense.

::emp::
 
slayerment said:
We need one of these:

George_Washington_in_the_American_Revolution.jpg


We need states to start succeeding from the union like they did in the Civil War. Maybe that will get the point across. Screw these British Fascists. They don't own us and I'm not their slave. Let the nihilists be serfs and let them have their fascist/communist/socialist/collective blackhole. I'm ready to check out and defend what little we do have left along with all the other real Americans who understand what freedom really is. I've had enough.
Click to expand...

this^

Didn't our forefathers tell us...

1) The government that governs the least, governs the best
2) If our government steps out of line, it is our duty as Americans to take it back?
 
Lots of misinformation...

WITHIN THE FIRST YEAR OF ENACTMENT
  • Insurance companies will be barred from dropping people from coverage when they get sick. Lifetime coverage limits will be eliminated and annual limits are to be restricted.
  • Insurers will be barred from excluding children for coverage because of pre-existing conditions.
  • Young adults will be able to stay on their parents' health plans until the age of 26. Many health plans currently drop dependents from coverage when they turn 19 or finish college.
  • Uninsured adults with a pre-existing conditions will be able to obtain health coverage through a new program that will expire once new insurance exchanges begin operating in 2014.
  • A temporary reinsurance program is created to help companies maintain health coverage for early retirees between the ages of 55 and 64. This also expires in 2014.
  • Medicare drug beneficiaries who fall into the "doughnut hole" coverage gap will get a $250 rebate. The bill eventually closes that gap which currently begins after $2,700 is spent on drugs. Coverage starts again after $6,154 is spent.
  • A tax credit becomes available for some small businesses to help provide coverage for workers.
  • A 10 percent tax on indoor tanning services that use ultraviolet lamps goes into effect on July 1.
WHAT HAPPENS IN 2011
  • Medicare provides 10 percent bonus payments to primary care physicians and general surgeons.
  • Medicare beneficiaries will be able to get a free annual wellness visit and personalized prevention plan service. New health plans will be required to cover preventive services with little or no cost to patients.
  • A new program under the Medicaid plan for the poor goes into effect in October that allows states to offer home and community based care for the disabled that might otherwise require institutional care.
  • Payments to insurers offering Medicare Advantage services are frozen at 2010 levels. These payments are to be gradually reduced to bring them more in line with traditional Medicare.
  • Employers are required to disclose the value of health benefits on employees' W-2 tax forms.
  • An annual fee is imposed on pharmaceutical companies according to market share. The fee does not apply to companies with sales of $5 million or less.

WHAT HAPPENS IN 2012

  • Physician payment reforms are implemented in Medicare to enhance primary care services and encourage doctors to form "accountable care organizations" to improve quality and efficiency of care.
  • An incentive program is established in Medicare for acute care hospitals to improve quality outcomes.
  • The Centers for Medicare and Medicaid Services, which oversees the government programs, begin tracking hospital readmission rates and puts in place financial incentives to reduce preventable readmissions. WHAT HAPPENS IN 2013
  • A national pilot program is established for Medicare on payment bundling to encourage doctors, hospitals and other care providers to better coordinate patient care.
  • The threshold for claiming medical expenses on itemized tax returns is raised to 10 percent from 7.5 percent of income. The threshold remains at 7.5 percent for the elderly through 2016.
  • The Medicare payroll tax is raised to 2.35 percent from 1.45 percent for individuals earning more than $200,000 and married couples with incomes over $250,000. The tax is imposed on some investment income for that income group.
  • A 2.9 percent excise tax in imposed on the sale of medical devices. Anything generally purchased at the retail level by the public is excluded from the tax.

WHAT HAPPENS IN 2014

  • State health insurance exchanges for small businesses and individuals open.
  • Most people will be required to obtain health insurance coverage or pay a fine if they don't. Healthcare tax credits become available to help people with incomes up to 400 percent of poverty purchase coverage on the exchange.
  • Health plans no longer can exclude people from coverage due to pre-existing conditions.
  • Employers with 50 or more workers who do not offer coverage face a fine of $2,000 for each employee if any worker receives subsidized insurance on the exchange. The first 30 employees aren't counted for the fine.
  • Health insurance companies begin paying a fee based on their market share.

WHAT HAPPENS IN 2015

  • Medicare creates a physician payment program aimed at rewarding quality of care rather than volume of services.

WHAT HAPPENS IN 2018

  • An excise tax on high cost employer-provided plans is imposed. The first $27,500 of a family plan and $10,200 for individual coverage is exempt from the tax. Higher levels are set for plans covering retirees and people in high risk professions.

Source: Reuters
 
Ataraxy said:
  • An excise tax on high cost employer-provided plans is imposed. The first $27,500 of a family plan and $10,200 for individual coverage is exempt from the tax. Higher levels are set for plans covering retirees and people in high risk professions.
Click to expand...

This excise tax is 40%, too. Expect people with good plans to lose coverage.

Ataraxy said:
The Medicare payroll tax is raised to 2.35 percent from 1.45 percent for individuals earning more than $200,000 and married couples with incomes over $250,000. The tax is imposed on some investment income for that income group.
Click to expand...

Part of the Self Employment tax too. Whether you're a corp or not, you're fucked.

Ataraxy said:
-Employers are required to disclose the value of health benefits on employees' W-2 tax forms.
-An annual fee is imposed on pharmaceutical companies according to market share. The fee does not apply to companies with sales of $5 million or less.
Click to expand...

Bye bye privacy for the first one. IRS knows more about your benefits so they can tax them if you have too high of benefits.

Also there goes some R&D funding for new drugs, instead it'll be going to the feds. Great.
 
An excise tax on high cost employer-provided plans is imposed. The first $27,500 of a family plan and $10,200 for individual coverage is exempt from the tax. Higher levels are set for plans covering retirees and people in high risk professions.
Click to expand...

Wait. What?

-An annual fee is imposed on pharmaceutical companies according to market share. The fee does not apply to companies with sales of $5 million or less.
Click to expand...
WAIT. WHAT???
 
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cq5X4VGR3I0"]YouTube - Michael Savage-Obama Ripped Apart America in only One Year![/ame]

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9GV8vFK-GWI&feature=sub"]YouTube- Barack Obama is the Lollipop King...[/ame]
 
It's really just too early to say what will happen.

The government is known a slow moving, money pissing, beast.

I'm sure there will be plenty of debates, additions, subtractions, and everything else.

Some states are already working on using constitutional law to negate residents from being required to purchase health insurance. Kind of the same concept how weed is technically illegal but there are legal ways to get and smoke it even without federal approval.

Anyways, ya'll need to chill the fuck out and see what happens.
 
ThatSwissIMGuy said:
Here's how the system works in Switzerland. Health Insurance is more like car insurance. You are required to have it. You can freely choose if you want to just be insured at the bare minimum (this means no private room, and a deductible over 5k but EVERYTHING is covered and not just what pleases the insurance) which costs about $80 a month for a healthy 25 year old OR if you want to get the best coverage out there that gives you fancy private rooms in hospitals etc. for a lot more.

The Insurance NEVER decided if you need a treatment. The doctor does, as it should be. The Doc says you need to get that done asap. You get it done. The insurance pays (unless obviously you get a boob job or something alike).

There are no waiting lists for doctors, old people don't get killed like Hannity preaches, and everyone is covered at least to a point that getting sick will not ruin you.
Click to expand...

THIS. I aint living in Switzerland, but our health care system is similar. and you know what? I cant complain.

When my aunt got cancer and she needed a very expensive medicine $10K /month which is an INSANE amount to a 9-5er here, the health care system treated her right and gave her the gift of life. and she is a doctor herself, hard worker.

Mikesev said:
Hang on, you're paying 50% top-rate tax and NOT getting public health care or social security?

The only question you Americans should be asking is where the hell all of your money is actually going.
Click to expand...

Exactly. So what are you paying taxes for? To fight a war in Iraq? :ugone2far:
 
James_Clarke said:
Exactly. So what are you paying taxes for? To fight a war in Iraq? :ugone2far:
Click to expand...

Unfunded mandates (soc. security, medicare, new HC bill), illegal wars, bridges to nowhere, no child left behind, unconstitutional wiretapping equipment, tax collector salaries...
 
turbolapp said:
How is public health care any different than public education? If you believe there to be a difference please make sure to explain the right to education but not to health.
Click to expand...


Very good point. People don't seem to realize the number of social programs we already have in place.

"health care is a right, not a privilege". Great line...

I'm pretty right winged and I've been for health care reform since before I can remember it being so publicly talked about. So many lives are lost because people who do not have insurance won't go to the doctor because of the bill.

What do you guys think is going to happen because of it?
 
pileofcrap said:
Very good point. People don't seem to realize the number of social programs we already have in place.
Click to expand...

Until 1979, Education was none of the Federal government's business, and was strictly left to states. It created the Department of Education, thereby beginning to stick its nose into every state's business with a nice 10th amendment violation. Bush only expanded it with NCLB.

We can reform healthcare without shoving a shit bill with unconstitutional mandates down people's throats.
 
pileofcrap said:
Very good point. People don't seem to realize the number of social programs we already have in place.
Click to expand...

I can only hope healthcare will not turn out like public education...

Here is an 8th grade exam taken from a school in 1895 before the Rockefellers hijacked education: Smoky Valley Genealogical Society>

We're much smarter now. Hopefully we'll be much healthier too...
 
envision said:
Originally Posted by Mikesev
Don't wish to hijack or start a debate, just wondering on what metric US health care is best in the world?
^ This.

To find the "best health care system in the world", please scroll all the way down to rank 37:
The World Health Organization's ranking of the world's health systems

Read more here: World’s Best Medical Care? - New York Times

I for one, am glad the US finally takes this step, although leaving out the public option is a mistake in my opinion. I grew up in Europe under an oh-so-scary national health care system and it worked great for me and my family. My parents, now retired, still live there and receive great care for the various small and big ailments that elderly people tend to get.
Click to expand...

I'll repeat yet again, it seems most of the anti-healthcare people seem to total ignore the critical points that are fired back at them - no surprise there! It seems you guys just seem to gloss over all the REAL questions and simply rant-rave about how what YOU think must be right. So, you're HAPPY that countries like Oman, Colombia, Saudi Arabia and Chile get better healthcare than you? If they do, fire them and get in someone who can.

You vote the government and politicians into office, why the hell do you have so little faith in them? You do know it's possible to put checks, requirements and balances on government employees right? Why do you assume that government staff would get free reign to spend money and not fall within budget?

And why the hell does it always come down to republicans and liberals? There are thousands of different mindsets and ideas out there, use those braincells you've got and you might come up to a different conclusion on certain topics.
I'm not even sure why I go into this much detail because it seems the sort of people against this bill simply do not want to be convinced and will not accept it.
 
Crisis said:
I'll repeat yet again, it seems most of the anti-healthcare people seem to total ignore the critical points that are fired back at them - no surprise there! It seems you guys just seem to gloss over all the REAL questions and simply rant-rave about how what YOU think must be right. So, you're HAPPY that countries like Oman, Colombia, Saudi Arabia and Chile get better healthcare than you? If they do, fire them and get in someone who can.

You vote the government and politicians into office, why the hell do you have so little faith in them? You do know it's possible to put checks, requirements and balances on government employees right? Why do you assume that government staff would get free reign to spend money and not fall within budget?

And why the hell does it always come down to republicans and liberals? There are thousands of different mindsets and ideas out there, use those braincells you've got and you might come up to a different conclusion on certain topics.
I'm not even sure why I go into this much detail because it seems the sort of people against this bill simply do not want to be convinced and will not accept it.
Click to expand...

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=foXQbmZxWYY]YouTube - Congressman Ron Paul on Healthcare[/ame]
 
Crisis said:
I'll repeat yet again, it seems most of the anti-healthcare people seem to total ignore the critical points that are fired back at them - no surprise there! It seems you guys just seem to gloss over all the REAL questions and simply rant-rave about how what YOU think must be right. So, you're HAPPY that countries like Oman, Colombia, Saudi Arabia and Chile get better healthcare than you? If they do, fire them and get in someone who can.

You vote the government and politicians into office, why the hell do you have so little faith in them? You do know it's possible to put checks, requirements and balances on government employees right? Why do you assume that government staff would get free reign to spend money and not fall within budget?

And why the hell does it always come down to republicans and liberals? There are thousands of different mindsets and ideas out there, use those braincells you've got and you might come up to a different conclusion on certain topics.
I'm not even sure why I go into this much detail because it seems the sort of people against this bill simply do not want to be convinced and will not accept it.
Click to expand...

Because our politicians use media campaigns and marketing tactics (!!!) to make people believe that there's only two sides. Maybe this forum could market some 3rd party politicians way better and get them to the forefront.
 
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