Muslims behead a 9-year-old boy
- Thread starter conjamuk
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Perhaps I could be more formal in my speech and weed out the prejudice-sounding phrases better. -But you see how much I've typed here... Shit takes a long time to write! Going over it again and getting it just right isn't an easy task.
That's not a false premise at all. Can you prove that religion has made the world better?
There will always be bad ppl doing bad shit and good ppl doing good shit. Let's say that balances out. However:
Bad ppl don't do many good things when they are religious.
Good ppl do a lot of Bad things when they are religious.
Therefore the sum total of religions' effects on this world is clearly Bad.
Prove me wrong, bro.
I know of no definitions of Humanism that take religion as a foundation or root system. In fact the fourth version of the definition listed at Wikipedia is clearly making it as Secular as possible.
It's just philosophy, like the Golden Rule. Humanism is not religious at all, and if it were, then you religious folk would likely Kill each other over who's religion it belongs to.
Pure Atheism = Human life has no value? WTF?!
I feel so embarrassed for you I'm going to refrain from chewing you out today...
I'm debating whether to turn this into a drawn out discussion or not.
Suffice to say, your position is very simplistic, based on a superficial understanding of humanity.
Bottom line is that if there is no outside source of morality ("God"), we can make up whatever morals we want, and arbitrarily deem them valid. And they will be valid.
We can rationalize that human beings are somehow special and we should treat human better than shit, but that's equally valid as "human beings are just a collection of atoms, worth as much as a sack of hammers, and we can kill maim and torture 'em if we want."
We obviously don't do that. We think humans are special. But we have no objective reason to do so.
The only way to objectively believe humans are worth more than shit is to say "God made us special."
Without the idea of God, humanism- or the idea that human beings are somehow special, deserve rights and treatment better than animals has no basis.
... and you think the Bible doesn't?
Answers.com - What verses in the Bible advocate killing non believers
Come on now. Stop picking only on Islam. There is hatred and killings in every holy book and you know it.
I wasn't looking to turn this into another pro-Atheism thread, but some of this shit said here must be rooted out and trounced upon!
Are you trolling or are you saying that all Atheists have no sense of right and wrong and you think that we can't know why murdering is a bad thing?
Not only is it NOT the only way, it is a VERY FLAWED and RECKLESS way.
AR, are you a religious fundamentalist, perchance?
You basically said that the cerebral cortex of the species Homo Sapiens isn't capable of enough rational thought to think it's way out of a wet paper bag without hearing voices from god telling it to rip the bag open.
Maybe YOU can't do it, but the rest of us humans could figure out that wet bag without hearing any voices from imaginary sky-faeries just fine.
Just like we can all (even the good muslims!) figure out how the golden rule works, and therefore not to kill others simply because payback is a bitch.
Have you noticed how priests and preachers today never read those ancient parts and even distribute bibles without them?
Christians, as well as all other religions minus Islam, have been relatively civil since the 1700s.
Only Islam still tries to enforce those ancient monkey rules.
Bullshit.
Are you trolling or are you saying that all Atheists have no sense of right and wrong and you think that we can't know why murdering is a bad thing?
OMG.
Not only is it NOT the only way, it is a VERY FLAWED and RECKLESS way.
AR, are you a religious fundamentalist, perchance?
I feel like you just insulted the human brain.
You basically said that the cerebral cortex of the species Homo Sapiens isn't capable of enough rational thought to think it's way out of a wet paper bag without hearing voices from god telling it to rip the bag open.
Maybe YOU can't do it, but the rest of us humans could figure out that wet bag without hearing any voices from imaginary sky-faeries just fine.
Just like we can all (even the good muslims!) figure out how the golden rule works, and therefore not to kill others simply because payback is a bitch.
Amen... Well, almost.avatar33 said:
Have you noticed how priests and preachers today never read those ancient parts and even distribute bibles without them?
Christians, as well as all other religions minus Islam, have been relatively civil since the 1700s.
Only Islam still tries to enforce those ancient monkey rules.
Again, you say that because your only knowledge of Muslims comes from the mass media. I'm pretty sure if you go to a mosque anywhere in the US today, you wouldn't hear the imams telling people to kill non-believers.
Wait, what?
Are you saying that there's something inherent in logic or nature that says human beings deserve more rights than bacon?
That you can find morality in a pea pod or rights in cytoplasm?
lukep, you're sounding more and more irrational on this topic.
If you want your belief system to make sense, start with telling us how from a purely naturalistic perspective you can determine that people deserve rights, but non-people don't.
You can't. You have to invoke the supernatural.
Not to argument-jack, but you can't invoke something that doesn't exist.
If a "supernatural" exists, it's rather clear that humans aren't meant to understand it because science SCREAMS the opposite. Maybe it exists, but it's always the smartest decision to assume it doesn't.
Yes. Logic would dictate it easily, but using the word "deserve" is deceptive.
No, that's you you are hearing, bringing the supernatural into the equation.
I can in fact but honestly I don't think you can fit it into your head. The sheer amount of logic might do too much damage to your own system.
My beliefs, or lack thereof, make 100% perfect, logical sense, and believing in superstition of any kind would be something that shatters it to pieces.
The simplified answer is that people don't "Deserve" to be treated better as much as _I_ see it in my best interest to treat them better. When I say that something is "Deserving" I'm not really using it the same way as you; I'm in fact paraphrasing the outcome of me using the golden rule on the situation.... Applying my own ideas of what is "Fair."
...And I Do NOT blanket generalize the whole human race as something more deserving as say, a dog. I apply fairness and if the dog is a good dog but the person is a piece of shit then I'd save the dog while the other drowns. (As long as I don't get into trouble with the local laws for doing so.)
Fuck no. Got anything harder than that for me?
All of our brains are reality generators. They literally are creating reality around us in a bubble of time and space. How could anyone understand this concept and find real absolutes out there in the universe?
Yes. Logic would dictate it easily, but using the word "deserve" is deceptive.
No, that's you you are hearing, bringing the supernatural into the equation.
I can in fact but honestly I don't think you can fit it into your head. The sheer amount of logic might do too much damage to your own system.
My beliefs, or lack thereof, make 100% perfect, logical sense, and believing in superstition of any kind would be something that shatters it to pieces.
The simplified answer is that people don't "Deserve" to be treated better as much as _I_ see it in my best interest to treat them better. When I say that something is "Deserving" I'm not really using it the same way as you; I'm in fact paraphrasing the outcome of me using the golden rule on the situation.... Applying my own ideas of what is "Fair."
...And I Do NOT blanket generalize the whole human race as something more deserving as say, a dog. I apply fairness and if the dog is a good dog but the person is a piece of shit then I'd save the dog while the other drowns. (As long as I don't get into trouble with the local laws for doing so.)
Fuck no. Got anything harder than that for me?
All of our brains are reality generators. They literally are creating reality around us in a bubble of time and space. How could anyone understand this concept and find real absolutes out there in the universe?
You said you afford people human rights when it's in your best interest.
So what about when it's not in your best interest? You fuck em over, like Stalin the atheist?
Bro, seriously. Self interest doesn't lead to morality. Self interest does contribute to theft, robbery, burglary, murder and a whole host of other crimes though.
Texas just gave a big 138 to zero :action-smiley-052: to one of things that fear mongering helped bring about.
TX House passes TSA no groping bill
I'm pointing out that whatever reasons for their actions does not change the odds of being killed by them. My main argument is strictly to do with the odds of getting killed by X. In the context of that argument, pointing out scary writings is an appeal to emotion.
lol, it wasn't in a private message to you.
Are you serious? I haven't called anyone an idiot and have been trying to steer this towards logic instead of emotion. I've focused on actual statistical odds, on a marketing forum no less, which is the most logical thing you can do when talking about risks. I've tried to let the numbers speak for themselves and not try to inflate their impact by attaching pictures of people struck by lightning, video interviews with serial killers, or videos of parents crying because their child drowned in a swimming pool.
People born in the USA are way more likely to die of homicide, to drown or many other things than be killed by a terrorist. This is a factual statement backed up by years of detailed numbers. Facts are logical and unbiased.
I'm not that concerned with changing how anyone feels. I know nice people that are afraid of just looking at snakes on television. The thing is, they will at least admit on some level that this is irrational. Maybe they can't help feeling that way and maybe it is not wrong for them to feel like that, but at least they don't try to tell me that getting killed in your house by a snake is one of the main dangers in life.
I agree.
Good luck bros. :music06:
TX House passes TSA no groping bill
I'm pointing out that whatever reasons for their actions does not change the odds of being killed by them. My main argument is strictly to do with the odds of getting killed by X. In the context of that argument, pointing out scary writings is an appeal to emotion.
lol, it wasn't in a private message to you.
Are you serious? I haven't called anyone an idiot and have been trying to steer this towards logic instead of emotion. I've focused on actual statistical odds, on a marketing forum no less, which is the most logical thing you can do when talking about risks. I've tried to let the numbers speak for themselves and not try to inflate their impact by attaching pictures of people struck by lightning, video interviews with serial killers, or videos of parents crying because their child drowned in a swimming pool.
People born in the USA are way more likely to die of homicide, to drown or many other things than be killed by a terrorist. This is a factual statement backed up by years of detailed numbers. Facts are logical and unbiased.
I'm not that concerned with changing how anyone feels. I know nice people that are afraid of just looking at snakes on television. The thing is, they will at least admit on some level that this is irrational. Maybe they can't help feeling that way and maybe it is not wrong for them to feel like that, but at least they don't try to tell me that getting killed in your house by a snake is one of the main dangers in life.
I agree.
Good luck bros. :music06:
But you can't know what's in MY self interest. It could be something higher than you can even conceive...
Sadly, Khan, Stalin and their butt-buddies had some bad shit in their own self interests, and that gave the non-religious a bad name for a while. If you look through history you can see a few more, of course...
But nothing like that THOUSANDS of evil bastards that killed mercilessly in the name of religion! So don't go thinking for one second that Atheists have less of a chance of making a morally positive decision than someone who believes in god. Statistics won't back your shit up.
Personally, I see it as short-term versus long-term. People who choose to do shit you'd call evil are usually making gains in the short-term, risking very bad things happening to them or others at least in the long term.
My self interests always consider the long term issue. Not just a few days out, but the rest of my life and the lives of people I care about. -Which is why you hear me bitching about Global warming.
I personally won't catch the worst of that shit when it gets hot and violent in 100 years or so. But I'm fighting stupid people today trying to promote my long-term interests, because I care about someone who will be around then.
So, can we get back to beating Islam's immoral ass now?
I see what you're saying. I couldn't find any posts stating that specific question, other than post #268 (holy moly) where you just threw that question out there after quoting me. I assume you got that from a pm with another member -- unless you're indeed crazy.
Mystery solved.
Scary for sure, but this is a war that you can't win with guns. In fact, I don't know how it would ever be winnable.
The interesting thing about this for me is that the clothes those kids are wearing are western clothes, probably donations. That school is probably funded by American dollars. I would call this a failure of epic proportions.
Religion does lead to morality. Objective morality.
You can question the basis of its objectivity by questioning the existence of the deities of these religions and thus their validity.
But the actual formulation of their argument is logically sound, unlike an argument for moral objectivity rooted in, say, scientific naturalism.
Excerpt from Evolution of Morality (wiki):
What's often taught in schools when they teach evolution is only about the biological evolution of the species. What's often left out is the concept of MORAL EVOLUTION. Christian evangelicals and fundamentalist often teach that humans are created in the image of God and this gives humans the capacity to understand what's good versus what's evil, what's selfish vs what's altruistic, etc, and everything else not human are just dumb beasts with no concept of good, evil, altruism, etc. Supposedly this huge chasm that separates us from lowly beasts and apes. Well, sorry to burst your bubble. Pretty much any expert primatologist can enlighten you to the fact that all of those concepts exists in primates as well. IT'S ALL THERE - albeit in a slightly primitive form. It 's just another fact that supports evolution/science.
But hey, not saying you need to be a full-fledged atheist to denounce organized religions like Islam, Christianaity, etc. Just a humble agnostic will do lol. Just google 'Spirituality vs Religion'. All kinds of interesting concepts.