Physical product development

[JoseArmando]

So for the past few months me and my brother have been developing a new product with an engineer and we went from a prototype to a 3D print today and it's working and looking really slick.

Companies that produce plastic injection molds quoted us around $40k for the tools that'd handle about 300,000-500,000 injections.

Now since this is our first physical product I'm wondering if any of you have any contacts in China or Taiwan that have the technology, expertise and are reliable at producing high quality tools at lower cost since $40k + the cost for the first batch seems a bit expensive to do a market test with a high probability of failure because of the nature of the endeavour.

Also, since we want to sell it in the US and EU, any info about having the final product approved for sale on both markets would be greatly appreciated.

I can't talk about product specifics since there's nothing like it currently developed but if any of you want to talk about the industry and the whole product development process shoot me your AIM over a PM.

 

[hehejo]

Get a 3D printer?

 

[super]

Why do you assume that only China and Taiwan would be able to offer better price?
I work in trade as my side job and I am always surprised how narrow minded towards only China product sourcers are.

 

[JoseArmando]

Why do you assume that only China and Taiwan would be able to offer better price?
I work in trade as my side job and I am always surprised how narrow minded towards only China product sourcers are.

Because from what I researched and the quotes I got so far they have the best prices, though I'm obviously just starting to learn about this so I'm open to anything - any suggestions?

 

[super]

I have a contact in plastic company, they make glass fibre and metal plastic injection molds. If you send me requirements of what tools do you need I could get a quote for you.

 

[BigWill]

6-8 weeks for delivery bro..

 

[nickCR]

6-8 weeks for delivery bro..

This and they always require a large order. Also China is famous for getting a product producing your order and another out the back door. For your trial you should find someone that can do a small batch 1000 or so and give it a try (preferably nationally). Or maybe even just try to sell them before running the batch to see what type of response you get. Just sayin.

 

[Vadym]

just try to sell them before running the batch to see what type of response you get. Just sayin.

This.

Especially if you're talking about

"the cost for the first batch seems a bit expensive to do a market test with a high probability of failure because of the nature of the endeavour."

Get a couple of letters of intent, brew.

All this speaking with a too broad understanding of your secret product.

 

[super]

Wait, I thought he was looking to purchase the mold itself.

 

[dmnEPC]

Wait, I thought he was looking to purchase the mold itself.

He needs to pay for the tooling of a mold that doesnt exist.

Just because you can get it for a lower cost in China doesnt mean it will be cheaper

 

[JoseArmando]

6-8 weeks for delivery bro..

Yeah and 2-3 months to get the mold created. It'll probably take half a year to go from order to assembly. That's if there's no unexpected issues.

I have a contact in plastic company, they make glass fibre and metal plastic injection molds. If you send me requirements of what tools do you need I could get a quote for you.

I'll PM you.

This and they always require a large order. Also China is famous for getting a product producing your order and another out the back door. For your trial you should find someone that can do a small batch 1000 or so and give it a try (preferably nationally). Or maybe even just try to sell them before running the batch to see what type of response you get. Just sayin.

Yeah I also heard of horror stories people getting their products stolen so right now I'm hoping to find a company we can trust, that's why I'm looking for contacts here. We've been thinking about getting pre-orders before manufacturing the first batch but since we have no ETA it might take like a year to get everything correctly set up (especially if you get a defective set or whatever in your first order).

Wait, I thought he was looking to purchase the mold itself.

We're looking to have the mold created and start the production with that company.

Just because you can get it for a lower cost in China doesnt mean it will be cheaper

What do you mean? Some companies claim I'd get tools for 1/3 of a price but it's almost impossible to know what kind of quality it'll be. Eventually we'll have to fly there and see what's what but it'd be good to have a sense of what I'm getting into.

 

[hehejo]

Get a 3D printer?

That was a serious answer.

They cost about 1000$ at the moment I think?

If you can't scale anymore with your printer (or multiple printers), get your mold.

 

[emp]

There is also opportunities in Eastern Europe. Try poland, czech republic, Bulgaria, etc..

You might also go the "4-hour work week" route and set up a complete website, with ordering, etc.. and just lie blatantly about being "out of stock, we'll contact you when available again"

Might be a good way to find out if there is a market.

::emp::

 

[emp]

That was a serious answer.

They cost about 1000$ at the moment I think?

If you can't scale anymore with your printer (or multiple printers), get your mold.

You might also want to check out if shapeways (Customize and create 3D printed products. Welcome to the Future of Stuff.) makes it possible to scale / order a bigger bunch.

::emp::

 

[dmnEPC]

What do you mean? Some companies claim I'd get tools for 1/3 of a price but it's almost impossible to know what kind of quality it'll be. Eventually we'll have to fly there and see what's what but it'd be good to have a sense of what I'm getting into.

The number 1 complaint I have heard from friends in the industry(but they profit from it) is people getting there molds made in China and then having to have them retooled because they didnt meet spec's. Other problems being that the actual tool has a shorter life than it should and then having to pay for another mold.

If it were me I would start searching for a small independent tool & die maker in the Midwest. By the time you factor in everything from quality, not having to worry about it getting stuck on a boat or getting lost in customs, language barriers, ect. It may make more sense to pay a bit more upfront knowing your going to get a superior product which will make your widget better and potentially save your company from going bankrupt.

There is some really good advice posted in this thread. The 3d printer idea is pure gold and will give you the ability to get a working prototype for cheap. And I agree with those that mentioned the market research with the fake website. The first time I went into business I was sure people would buy my product and created my own hypothetical sales projections and you know what they weren't even close (and I researched for over a year before I was actually open. That mistake cost me over $250K. Dont be the same fool I was get hard data before you spend a nickle on tooling costs.

 

[JoseArmando]

That was a serious answer.

They cost about 1000$ at the moment I think?

If you can't scale anymore with your printer (or multiple printers), get your mold.

So the reservations I have about buying a printer is that you can print, what 1-2 pieces a day? It's a good idea though because it does help you lower risk a bit. I'll have to contact a few of those companies that sell printers and see their prices.

There is also opportunities in Eastern Europe. Try poland, czech republic, Bulgaria, etc..

You might also go the "4-hour work week" route and set up a complete website, with ordering, etc.. and just lie blatantly about being "out of stock, we'll contact you when available again"

Might be a good way to find out if there is a market.

::emp::

Yup I've kind of been reserved of doing it because it's such a simple and IMO great product idea it's easy to have it stolen but we're probably being a bit too paranoid. The risk of having it stolen is lower than the risk of failure in case no one will want to buy it.

You might also want to check out if shapeways (Customize and create 3D printed products. Welcome to the Future of Stuff.) makes it possible to scale / order a bigger bunch.

::emp::

Thanks for the link man.

The number 1 complaint I have heard from friends in the industry(but they profit from it) is people getting there molds made in China and then having to have them retooled because they didnt meet spec's. Other problems being that the actual tool has a shorter life than it should and then having to pay for another mold.

If it were me I would start searching for a small independent tool & die maker in the Midwest. By the time you factor in everything from quality, not having to worry about it getting stuck on a boat or getting lost in customs, language barriers, ect. It may make more sense to pay a bit more upfront knowing your going to get a superior product which will make your widget better and potentially save your company from going bankrupt.

There is some really good advice posted in this thread. The 3d printer idea is pure gold and will give you the ability to get a working prototype for cheap. And I agree with those that mentioned the market research with the fake website. The first time I went into business I was sure people would buy my product and created my own hypothetical sales projections and you know what they weren't even close (and I researched for over a year before I was actually open. That mistake cost me over $250K. Dont be the same fool I was get hard data before you spend a nickle on tooling costs.

This makes a lot of sense. It's really easy getting over excited and neglecting we might have some serious blind spots concerning the product though that's not too likely since everyone we showed it to loved it.

The companies in China I've checked so far sometimes have the whole process really buyer friendly like they send you the mold designs first so I can have them evaluated by my local experts and they send you first injected samples so that you can inspect injection quality. I might be missing something here but this seems as safe as it gets. Because of the risk of getting low quality tools created we also want them to handle our product injection to give the company an incentive not to produce bullshit molds. I'll research Midwest companies thanks for the tip.

We're also thinking about having the first set made from silicon molds by vacuum injection which would come around $150 a piece (the 3D was $300) where the silicon mold lasts about 20-30 pieces, it might be enough to sell them just to get first customers feedback about possible issues/improvements.

Can you tell me more about mistakes you did, or was it purely an issue with no one wanting to buy your product?

 

[EricVonDoobie]

That was a serious answer.

They cost about 1000$ at the moment I think?

If you can't scale anymore with your printer (or multiple printers), get your mold.

Are they really cost effective though? The idea of a 3D printer is great but I'm always skeptical about how the margins would be using something like that, seems inefficient.

Also OP how complex is your product? Does it have moving parts or is it just basically a piece of plastic more or less?

 

[JoseArmando]

Are they really cost effective though? The idea of a 3D printer is great but I'm always skeptical about how the margins would be using something like that, seems inefficient.

Also OP how complex is your product? Does it have moving parts or is it just basically a piece of plastic more or less?

It's three part product with moving parts, also has metal and silicone/rubber (still have to do enough testing to see what works better). The 3D printer would never be cost effective because from what I understand it'd take like a year to print enough products to cover the initial printer investment - but that's not an issue. It's perfect for really small scale market testing to get a rough idea what people think of it.

From suggestions so far we'll most likely do the test website thing and see what people are prepared to pay for it and if they even wanna buy something like it and go directly to ordering tools after that.

 

[dmnEPC]

So the reservations I have about buying a printer is that you can print, what 1-2 pieces a day? It's a good idea though because it does help you lower risk a bit. I'll have to contact a few of those companies that sell printers and see their prices.



Yup I've kind of been reserved of doing it because it's such a simple and IMO great product idea it's easy to have it stolen but we're probably being a bit too paranoid. The risk of having it stolen is lower than the risk of failure in case no one will want to buy it.



Thanks for the link man.



This makes a lot of sense. It's really easy getting over excited and neglecting we might have some serious blind spots concerning the product though that's not too likely since everyone we showed it to loved it.

The companies in China I've checked so far sometimes have the whole process really buyer friendly like they send you the mold designs first so I can have them evaluated by my local experts and they send you first injected samples so that you can inspect injection quality. I might be missing something here but this seems as safe as it gets. Because of the risk of getting low quality tools created we also want them to handle our product injection to give the company an incentive not to produce bullshit molds. I'll research Midwest companies thanks for the tip.

We're also thinking about having the first set made from silicon molds by vacuum injection which would come around $150 a piece (the 3D was $300) where the silicon mold lasts about 20-30 pieces, it might be enough to sell them just to get first customers feedback about possible issues/improvements.

Can you tell me more about mistakes you did, or was it purely an issue with no one wanting to buy your product?

The product is the least of your concerns. I am sure its great and people will like it but it really has very little to do with your success. Overall people are stupid and will buy whatever widget your selling them as long as you believe in it. The biggest problem I had and most small business have is under capitalization. I can already tell your working on a small budget just by the fact your looking to cut costs by thinking China (and it may be) is the answer. There is never enough money going into a new project so you have to really make sure your headed in the right direction. What are you basing your sales projections on? How do you know what the market is willing to pay for your product? How are you going to distribute this product? The list goes on and on but the point is you really need to try to put a similar product through its paces.

I know you say your product is new and there is nothing like it, but its still in a niche. If it were me I would figure a way to take the top selling product in the niche and try to sell it for a couple months and see how I do. Its really easy to get these pie in the sky expectations and tell yourself your comfortable with the projections, but again how do you really know? The other option is to produce a small run like you mentioned w/ the vacuum injection and see what happens. Even if you loose some money on that run it will be worth it to get some actual hard stats but just know 20 or 30 units is nothing and wont give you any real data. Dont blow your budget before you can answer for yourself some hard truths.

Edit: And when I say small tool & die companies I mean with around 10 employees. Some of these shops do great work and make tools for the biggest companies on the planet, and with a bad economy there are some real deals to be had if you just ask. Don't be afraid to negotiate and don't be afraid to have your tool made by a different company than the one that makes your product.

 

[JoseArmando]

The product is the least of your concerns. I am sure its great and people will like it but it really has very little to do with your success. Overall people are stupid and will buy whatever widget your selling them as long as you believe in it. The biggest problem I had and most small business have is under capitalization. I can already tell your working on a small budget just by the fact your looking to cut costs by thinking China (and it may be) is the answer. There is never enough money going into a new project so you have to really make sure your headed in the right direction. What are you basing your sales projections on? How do you know what the market is willing to pay for your product? How are you going to distribute this product? The list goes on and on but the point is you really need to try to put a similar product through its paces.

I know you say your product is new and there is nothing like it, but its still in a niche. If it were me I would figure a way to take the top selling product in the niche and try to sell it for a couple months and see how I do. Its really easy to get these pie in the sky expectations and tell yourself your comfortable with the projections, but again how do you really know? The other option is to produce a small run like you mentioned w/ the vacuum injection and see what happens. Even if you loose some money on that run it will be worth it to get some actual hard stats but just know 20 or 30 units is nothing and wont give you any real data. Dont blow your budget before you can answer for yourself some hard truths.

Edit: And when I say small tool & die companies I mean with around 10 employees. Some of these shops do great work and make tools for the biggest companies on the planet, and with a bad economy there are some real deals to be had if you just ask. Don't be afraid to negotiate and don't be afraid to have your tool made by a different company than the one that makes your product.

Yup this makes a lot of sense man. Product itself is the last issue and I should know better especially because of the crap that's being sold on infomercials. The questions you posed are all valid and that's the reason we'll do the test website thing and see if we can build a good sales funnel that'd get orders at a reasonable cost per sale. I'll set up a few different prices on the site and see what converts best in order to get at least some insight into what price we should start with.

We're tackling this one step at a time which might be a bit foolish but it's also the only reason we got from the idea to the actual fully developed product since if I knew what I know now I don't know we'd get so far. But there's always a way.

Yeah, the 30 units with the vacuum technique would only serve to get some feedback from actual customers about the usability and issues and not to draw conclusions about the market.

The part about selling other products wouldn't work here since there's nothing like it right now which makes it an even higher risk idea so the "fake" website makes even more sense.

The thing about buying tools somewhere and injecting elsewhere is if you buy a tool in another continent and get a bad quality piece there's almost nothing you can do which was also confirmed by some of the guys I talked to in this business. As much as 30% of tools they get from China etc are in some shape or form defective and can't be used. It's just a part of the business model for them since they have contracts in place to deal with it but for us that'd quickly be a big issue if the first batch wouldn't be up to standards.

I'll try to report back what our live sales tests showed if anyone is interested in that.

I gotta say awesome awesome responses so far, thanks guys.