The Alternative and Complementary Medicine Thread - 100% BS?
- Thread starter charlie.simm
- Start date
LOL
If you ever go to the doctor and they prescribe you some medication before you take it try this little search. "medicine name" inurl:forum
Pay particular attention to the people who not only did it not work, but it caused them many other problems.
Or if you get bored try it for some top name medications.
You might also want to throw in some other words in your search such as:
withdrawal
symptoms
death
going off
get off
reactions
worse
I read the thread SeoReborn started and felt the need to post this in both threads (IMO, this post is relevant to Robert Beck's protocol as well as to alternative therapies in general):
There are LOTS of so-called "alternative cures" available and they all have a few things in common: decent videos, anecdotal stories (I know someone who got cured, I know someone who knows someone who got cured and so on) but no double blinded studies.
I'm 100% sure a few people will post something along the lines of "double blinded studies cannot be trusted" along with the usual "pharma companies are evil" stuff. Ok, pharma companies are evil and double blinded studies cannot be trusted. Then what's the alternative?
There are thousands of "alternative cures" out there, how can we decide which is better without double blinded studies?
Now let me refer to the Robert Beck protocol for a moment. Ok, we read some anecdotal stories about how it worked for some people. But here is an anecdotal story about how it didn't work for someone else.
Now what? You have anecdotal stories about how this protocol worked and you have anecdotal stories about how this protocol didn't work. How do you make an informed decision? Honest question.
Double blinded studies are not perfect but they sure are better than the alternatives I'm seeing.
Making decisions based on anecdotal stories is exactly like jumping to conclusions when it comes to a traffic source after just two visitors. WTF?
You need statistically relevant information if you're serious about making informed decisions.
Two visitors? Two anecdotal stories? So what?
Show me data for a few hundred visitors at the very least and you're on the right track. The more data you have at your disposal, the better.
The same way: show me data for at least a few hundred patients (something along the lines of "100 patients tried this product and it worked for x out of 100") and you're on the right track. The more data you have at your disposal, the better.
I consider myself an open minded person, so please prove me wrong.
Double blinded case studies suck. Ok, show me a viable alternative!
My honest advice: don't make important health-related decisions based exclusively on what you read on teh Interwebz, don't make important health-related decisions before talking to a doctor. If you believe in a therapy like this one and there are no life threatening side effects, give it a try but only AFTER doing what your doctor recommended (maybe surgery, maybe surgery + chemo, maybe surgery + chemo + radiation and so on).
There are LOTS of so-called "alternative cures" available and they all have a few things in common: decent videos, anecdotal stories (I know someone who got cured, I know someone who knows someone who got cured and so on) but no double blinded studies.
I'm 100% sure a few people will post something along the lines of "double blinded studies cannot be trusted" along with the usual "pharma companies are evil" stuff. Ok, pharma companies are evil and double blinded studies cannot be trusted. Then what's the alternative?
There are thousands of "alternative cures" out there, how can we decide which is better without double blinded studies?
Now let me refer to the Robert Beck protocol for a moment. Ok, we read some anecdotal stories about how it worked for some people. But here is an anecdotal story about how it didn't work for someone else.
Now what? You have anecdotal stories about how this protocol worked and you have anecdotal stories about how this protocol didn't work. How do you make an informed decision? Honest question.
Double blinded studies are not perfect but they sure are better than the alternatives I'm seeing.
Making decisions based on anecdotal stories is exactly like jumping to conclusions when it comes to a traffic source after just two visitors. WTF?
You need statistically relevant information if you're serious about making informed decisions.
Two visitors? Two anecdotal stories? So what?
Show me data for a few hundred visitors at the very least and you're on the right track. The more data you have at your disposal, the better.
The same way: show me data for at least a few hundred patients (something along the lines of "100 patients tried this product and it worked for x out of 100") and you're on the right track. The more data you have at your disposal, the better.
I consider myself an open minded person, so please prove me wrong.
Double blinded case studies suck. Ok, show me a viable alternative!
My honest advice: don't make important health-related decisions based exclusively on what you read on teh Interwebz, don't make important health-related decisions before talking to a doctor. If you believe in a therapy like this one and there are no life threatening side effects, give it a try but only AFTER doing what your doctor recommended (maybe surgery, maybe surgery + chemo, maybe surgery + chemo + radiation and so on).
Throwing in my worthless 2 cents:
When 'modern' medicine became into being, the old tried and true methods were thrown out. Different Herbs could help with that? No way - those are the way of the witch doctors. Pills good. Herbs bad.
Why can they not compliment each other? Look at the old Chinese methods for instance. Why throw out knowledge that is over 1,000 years old?
No money in it and not sexy. It can't be good if some medicine man 200 years ago used it. After all, it doesn't come from Bayer or Pfizer.
And I haven't even started talking about healing methods from folks like Edgar Cayce (Yea, it's all BS - spare me - whatever).
Yet, there ARE a ton of quacks out there as well, when it comes to alternative medicine. Which gives 'alternative' a bad name at times even more.
My mother retired as a Nurse with over 40+ years of experience. She worked everywhere from the ER, Labor/Delivery to Cancer wards and dealt with Cancer/TB and AIDS patients. She was trained old school with the believe that Dr.'s and modern medicine are gods.
Well, guess what - she learned over the years that they can compliment each other quite well. There are things that herbs, etc. can address better with less side effects then modern medicine. However, there are things were modern medicine is MUCH better and more effective. She is retired now but has a huge herbal garden in her backyard. Helping friends and family who have over the years come to trust her counsel.
Locally my Doctor understands this and sent me to see an Acupuncturist that he has had great experiences with, when he felt that it would be less invasive then taking strong medicine (Back problems suck). Just look at the crappy website for the Acupuncturist, yet she marries the old with the new and she brought me great relief. However, her Herbs etc. etc. are over the counter and don't cost a lot of money. Traditional medicine 'normally' shuns her (My Dr. is one of the few WAY cool ones that has an open mind) since they can't rake in the monies (which it is really all about - or is it?).
What about experimenting on yourself though? Different people react differently to the same treatment. Today there is this article in the main stream news: http://www.ft.com/cms/s/2/3ccb11a0-923b-11e0-9e00-00144feab49a.html#axzz1OtMAx5Fl And here is a great article on self experimentation: The Value of Self-Experimentation [Plus: Extreme Videos - Do Not Try This At Home]
Did you read the part about the Acne in that article??? Modern medicine says Acne and diet are not related. Yet non-medical professionals running their own studies show that they do.
Last example, if you have kids your M.D. will tell you that fevers and teething are NOT related. Yet, every time any of my kids were teething, they got a fever. So have all the kids of our friends. Am I to believe the M.D. or my own anecdotal reference? And when they teethe, they are in awful pain and you are not allowed to give them any 'real' medicine.
The only thing we found for our kids that worked were Hylands teething tablets that were all herbal and have been sold for over 107 years. However, the FDA recently pressured them to pull it off the market due to 'manufacturing methods'. Guess what? Parents are dealing the left over tablet like crack here and I know folks that are expecting who pay high $$ for them. WHY? Cause they just WORK!!!
In the end it's like a lot of things... the endless useless discussions. XBox vs. PS3, Catholics vs. Protestants, Christians vs. Atheists, PC's vs. Mac's.
There IS no reason BOTH can not be useful...
When 'modern' medicine became into being, the old tried and true methods were thrown out. Different Herbs could help with that? No way - those are the way of the witch doctors. Pills good. Herbs bad.
Why can they not compliment each other? Look at the old Chinese methods for instance. Why throw out knowledge that is over 1,000 years old?
No money in it and not sexy. It can't be good if some medicine man 200 years ago used it. After all, it doesn't come from Bayer or Pfizer.
And I haven't even started talking about healing methods from folks like Edgar Cayce (Yea, it's all BS - spare me - whatever).
Yet, there ARE a ton of quacks out there as well, when it comes to alternative medicine. Which gives 'alternative' a bad name at times even more.
My mother retired as a Nurse with over 40+ years of experience. She worked everywhere from the ER, Labor/Delivery to Cancer wards and dealt with Cancer/TB and AIDS patients. She was trained old school with the believe that Dr.'s and modern medicine are gods.
Well, guess what - she learned over the years that they can compliment each other quite well. There are things that herbs, etc. can address better with less side effects then modern medicine. However, there are things were modern medicine is MUCH better and more effective. She is retired now but has a huge herbal garden in her backyard. Helping friends and family who have over the years come to trust her counsel.
Locally my Doctor understands this and sent me to see an Acupuncturist that he has had great experiences with, when he felt that it would be less invasive then taking strong medicine (Back problems suck). Just look at the crappy website for the Acupuncturist, yet she marries the old with the new and she brought me great relief. However, her Herbs etc. etc. are over the counter and don't cost a lot of money. Traditional medicine 'normally' shuns her (My Dr. is one of the few WAY cool ones that has an open mind) since they can't rake in the monies (which it is really all about - or is it?).
What about experimenting on yourself though? Different people react differently to the same treatment. Today there is this article in the main stream news: http://www.ft.com/cms/s/2/3ccb11a0-923b-11e0-9e00-00144feab49a.html#axzz1OtMAx5Fl And here is a great article on self experimentation: The Value of Self-Experimentation [Plus: Extreme Videos - Do Not Try This At Home]
Did you read the part about the Acne in that article??? Modern medicine says Acne and diet are not related. Yet non-medical professionals running their own studies show that they do.
Last example, if you have kids your M.D. will tell you that fevers and teething are NOT related. Yet, every time any of my kids were teething, they got a fever. So have all the kids of our friends. Am I to believe the M.D. or my own anecdotal reference? And when they teethe, they are in awful pain and you are not allowed to give them any 'real' medicine.
The only thing we found for our kids that worked were Hylands teething tablets that were all herbal and have been sold for over 107 years. However, the FDA recently pressured them to pull it off the market due to 'manufacturing methods'. Guess what? Parents are dealing the left over tablet like crack here and I know folks that are expecting who pay high $$ for them. WHY? Cause they just WORK!!!
In the end it's like a lot of things... the endless useless discussions. XBox vs. PS3, Catholics vs. Protestants, Christians vs. Atheists, PC's vs. Mac's.
There IS no reason BOTH can not be useful...
@charlie.simm
I'll reply to your post in the other thread soon. Need to get some work done today. But I'll make a quick comment:
Read through the other thread on a possible cure for cancer. Can you see the reaction it got? Most of the posts classify this alternative treatment as wacky and dismissing it without further investigation through their own personal beliefs (check the timing of the wacky dismissal posts, they started within minutes of the opening the thread when the video itself is 2 hours long.). So yeah, it is what I expected and this kind of mindset is part of why these kind of treatments can't become mainstream (on top of other factors such as pharmaceutical companies, FDA etc)
I'll reply to your post in the other thread soon. Need to get some work done today. But I'll make a quick comment:
Read through the other thread on a possible cure for cancer. Can you see the reaction it got? Most of the posts classify this alternative treatment as wacky and dismissing it without further investigation through their own personal beliefs (check the timing of the wacky dismissal posts, they started within minutes of the opening the thread when the video itself is 2 hours long.). So yeah, it is what I expected and this kind of mindset is part of why these kind of treatments can't become mainstream (on top of other factors such as pharmaceutical companies, FDA etc)
You guys are really lumping things together here.
From someone with lots of love for medicine here:
a) If your doc is only treating symptoms, without looking at underlying causes, GET A NEW FUCKING DOCTOR!
b) A lot of what could be called "natural remedies" is (when proven effective) brought into a chemically reproducible form, which includes a QUANTIFIABLE form. If you eat a piece of bark, there might be 1gram or 3mg of effective substances in it. Pop a pill, you KNOW how much of the substance is in there.
Case in point: Aspirin - bark much?
c) Herbal remedies are A-OK, but make sure they are
- proven effective
- not harmful
- actually full of ingredients. Homeopathy is BULLSHIT.
more rants later.
::emp::
From someone with lots of love for medicine here:
a) If your doc is only treating symptoms, without looking at underlying causes, GET A NEW FUCKING DOCTOR!
b) A lot of what could be called "natural remedies" is (when proven effective) brought into a chemically reproducible form, which includes a QUANTIFIABLE form. If you eat a piece of bark, there might be 1gram or 3mg of effective substances in it. Pop a pill, you KNOW how much of the substance is in there.
Case in point: Aspirin - bark much?
c) Herbal remedies are A-OK, but make sure they are
- proven effective
- not harmful
- actually full of ingredients. Homeopathy is BULLSHIT.
more rants later.
::emp::
I'm totally into natural/alternative/complementary AND traditional medicine. Of course I cannot deny that western medicine has been effective... at treating symptoms, not curing the source! An advil is so fucking effective when you have a migraine and you need to work. No other medicine can match that.
I believe a lot in TCM, and in energy. I do believe that a disease is the result of energy blockage in a particular area in the body. When energy flows, you're healthy as a horse. I've traveled in China and met a lot of 80+ year old TCM practicionners that were as healthy as a 25 year old. Can't say the same with our old folks here in North America.
I'm currently reading this book called Taoist Cosmic Healing. Absolutely fantastic knowledge in this book. I'd recommend it to anyone who's interested in understanding and improving his energy flow.
[ame="http://www.amazon.ca/Taoist-Cosmic-Healing-Mantak-Chia/dp/0892810874/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1314630985&sr=8-1"]Taoist Cosmic Healing - Amazon[/ame]
I believe a lot in TCM, and in energy. I do believe that a disease is the result of energy blockage in a particular area in the body. When energy flows, you're healthy as a horse. I've traveled in China and met a lot of 80+ year old TCM practicionners that were as healthy as a 25 year old. Can't say the same with our old folks here in North America.
I'm currently reading this book called Taoist Cosmic Healing. Absolutely fantastic knowledge in this book. I'd recommend it to anyone who's interested in understanding and improving his energy flow.
[ame="http://www.amazon.ca/Taoist-Cosmic-Healing-Mantak-Chia/dp/0892810874/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1314630985&sr=8-1"]Taoist Cosmic Healing - Amazon[/ame]
I'm totally into natural/alternative/complementary AND traditional medicine. Of course I cannot deny that western medicine has been effective... at treating symptoms, not curing the source! An advil is so fucking effective when you have a migraine and you need to work. No other medicine can match that.
I believe a lot in TCM, and in energy. I do believe that a disease is the result of energy blockage in a particular area in the body. When energy flows, you're healthy as a horse. I've traveled in China and met a lot of 80+ year old TCM practicionners that were as healthy as a 25 year old. Can't say the same with our old folks here in North America.
I'm currently reading this book called Taoist Cosmic Healing. Absolutely fantastic knowledge in this book. I'd recommend it to anyone who's interested in understanding and improving his energy flow.
Taoist Cosmic Healing - Amazon
How can you say western medicine doesn't treat the cause? Obviously if you have a headache you take a painkiller and if you have an disease with no cure you treat the symptoms, but on the whole western medicine (antibiotics etc) does treat the underlying cause.
Everyone has stories of when a doctor messed up or someone got worse after taking some medicine. No one can claim that western medicine is 100% effective, but surely we all understand probabilities here? The chances of a treatment that's gone through numerous clinical trials and peer reviewed journals working is MUCH higher than an alternative medicine with no scientific proof.
@emp @Alexpte
I would NEVER rely on this kind of medicine alone to treat every condition. That's not the point.
I strongly believe that a perfect medicine would be a mix between Western and Eastern (or Traditional) Medecine.
If you have cancer (god forbid) they'll put you under chemo (depending on what type it is) and that has a good chance of killing the cancer cells and healing you, but that is only temporary! In fact, there is a high percentage that the cancer might come back a year later, or 2 years later. What does that tell you? The source hasn't been treated. Eastern medicine tries to understand the relationship between mind and body and prevent diseases by balancing your energy levels.
Dr. OZ and Dr. Kohn, (2 high profile cardiologists in the U.S.) hire Holistic & Reiki Healers to assist them during major surgeries (heart transplants, open-heart surgeries, etc...) because they have noticed that it drastically improves the whole procedure.
I would NEVER rely on this kind of medicine alone to treat every condition. That's not the point.
I strongly believe that a perfect medicine would be a mix between Western and Eastern (or Traditional) Medecine.
If you have cancer (god forbid) they'll put you under chemo (depending on what type it is) and that has a good chance of killing the cancer cells and healing you, but that is only temporary! In fact, there is a high percentage that the cancer might come back a year later, or 2 years later. What does that tell you? The source hasn't been treated. Eastern medicine tries to understand the relationship between mind and body and prevent diseases by balancing your energy levels.
Dr. OZ and Dr. Kohn, (2 high profile cardiologists in the U.S.) hire Holistic & Reiki Healers to assist them during major surgeries (heart transplants, open-heart surgeries, etc...) because they have noticed that it drastically improves the whole procedure.
cyelcd
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I just re-listened to Tim Minchin's "Storm" last night. Makes me laugh every time.
For the uninitiated: [ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HhGuXCuDb1U]Tim Minchin's Storm the Animated Movie - YouTube[/ame]
:thefinger:
They say Steve Jobs died because he wanted a natural cure when he had a cancer that could most likely have been eliminated through surgery and medicine.
I would probably try natural cures first myself as well.
I can tell you that apple cider vinegar will absolutely remove moles and warts (personal and family experiences.)
I would probably try natural cures first myself as well.
I can tell you that apple cider vinegar will absolutely remove moles and warts (personal and family experiences.)
I think you took the completely wrong lesson from Steve Job's death.
If I had cancer I'd get real treatment ASAP, like starting with a follow up consultation that day. It's not something you can just let sit and try different things out with. That's how you die.
Like this girl who died in immense pain of rectal cancer because she was convinced to try natural cures.
http://www.safetyandquality.health....ity_review/inquest_finding/Dingle_Finding.pdf
Also, what a rather unfortunate name.