See 2005. Israel UPROOTS its own people to leave gaze for peace.
See 2006, 2007 2008, and 2009. Hamas/Palestinians have no interest in Peace
The real Hamas from founding member's son...
- Thread starter rgordon83
- Start date
- Status
See 2005. Israel UPROOTS its own people to leave gaze for peace.
See 2006, 2007 2008, and 2009. Hamas/Palestinians have no interest in Peace
Wrong, the reason they have power is because they way they have been able to manipulate their own people and spread false propaganda about the way they have been treated.
They have been treated way worse by their own leaders than they have by Israelis. Their own leaders (like arafat) robbed them blind and left the conditions the way they were. They took billions of dollars of money sent to improve West Bank/ Gaza and used it for themselves and for weapons and terror and propaganda.
Look man, there are extremists radicals in both groups. I am not Israeli or Palestinian, and I don't hate or like either of them. There are deaths on both sides and I feel sorry for the civilians.
The fact is that there was a ceasefire and Israel broke it, they broke the truce. The rockets only came after they broke the truce! Did you watch the link I posted?
YouTube - Israel or Hamas who broke the truce
As for propaganda in Hamas, there is frigin propaganda everywhere! Israel has propaganda and US has propaganda. It is the civilians that suffers. The suicide bombers killing Israeli's are wrong, and they must have ruined the lives of their families and friends. Behind a Isreali story there is also a Palestines story. Their lives are getting ruined also. Collateral damage my ass. Its over kill. Israel is blocking humanitarian aid and Israel sending in humanitarian aid themselves is propaganda itself. They are bombing vital infastructure such as wells and such like. They don't give a shit about the civilians.
My head is not in my arse. I don't take things for face value. There is so much fucking propaganda around. Fox News is definately a channel I won't trust. Alot of the news I read is from infowars.com and other independant sources. They are the most trustworthy for me. Again, I watched the vid and all I hear is excerpts. Even if I do hear the guy talking, I believe there is more to it. Things are not that straight forward and there is always a bigger agenda in these events than those shown in the main media.
911 was planned : http://www.wickedfire.com/shooting-shit/32461-911-all-planned.html
You have been tamed to laugh at the very word conspiracy
Here we go again...
Using an insult in place of an argument doesn't make you appear very intelligent.
Please, because some crusty old lady spews rubbish that means it's true?
Before you talk about who violated the ceasfire, you need to understand the terms of the ceasefire...
1. Israel only promised to ease restrictions on civilian border crossings, NOT totally repoen them. They only said they would certain Commercial crossings, which they did.
2. It was Egypt's responsibility to negotiate the Rafah crossing on their border, not Israels.
3. Israel promised not to attack militants in gaza BUT it reserved the right to attach in self defense as well as conduct any other opperations in self defense.
Now, onto the six people you say israel killed and thus broke the ceasefire. Those people were killed b/c israel had intelligence that Hamas was digging a tunnel to capture soldiers. Israel went into Gaza to that location to blow up the tunnel. When they got there, they were fired on by Hamas fighters, and then Israel struck back, resulting in the deaths of those 6 people.
Here's a an old BBC article with the details (And BBc is one of the most Pro-Palestiniasn news sources around) BBC NEWS | Middle East | Rockets fired after Gaza clashes
2 points. One, Israel killed those militants in selfe defense, which is NOT a violation of the ceasfire (even though some crusty old woman on youtube says it is, doesn't mean she's right just because you saw it on some "independant" news source)
Two, just in case you're gonna make up some crap like "well israel just made that up to go into gaza,"
a comment which has no rationale, consider this. Why would hamas gunmen be protecting a tunnel that didn't exist? Why were they firing on Israel? if they had nothing to hide, why not let israel come in and not find the tunnel and look foolish?
Just because you think a source is independent, doesn't mean it is. do your own research and look up the facts...
While there is of course propaganda, to say that it is responsible for the election of extremists is to give Hamas way too much credit.
What would it take for you to support extreme action? The death of a few friends? Your parents house bulldozed because a distant cousin was a freedom fighter/terrorist? If you lived in squalor while a few miles away people lived in luxury would you vote for whoever offered the best chance to change that? Or maybe you'd take more direct action yourself?
The one possible light at the end of this dark tunnel is the speed at which Israel has developed. Historically as countries become more developed the population rejects religion and favours secularism. If future generations of Israeli leaders are able to detach religion from government then peaceful coexistance might be possible. (They might even stop forcing kids to fight and give women equal rights too.) Unfortunately this would mean another couple of generations of "10 dead in suicide bombing, 2 dead in rocket attack... 100 killed in airstrikes".
See, the problem is that Israel already IS a secular nation by and large. Just about everyone in any government position is a Secular Jew. They do not observe sabbath, kosher, or much anything else. From the Israeli perspective it's not about religion. It's about Security. There is NOTHING in judaism that says anything about killing arabs, or going to war with them or any of that and you will not find anything of the sort if you do your research.
However, the Islamic religion justifies, even perhaps COMMANDS arabs to kill jews.
The problem with your question of "What would it take for you to support extreme action? The death of a few friends? Your parents house bulldozed because a distant cousin was a freedom fighter/terrorist?" Is that it should justify Israels actions to you as well. How many rockets need to be launched until Israel takes xtreme action (over 8,000 rockets over the past 5 years??)
You can't ask a question like that and use it to defend the Palestinians picking Hamas but then not use the same logic to defend israels "extreme" actions as well.
But if your asking me what i would do, the answer would depend on what i wanted. If i truly wanted peace, i would not pick the party which promoted more war. If i wanted revenge and more war, i would vote for the party that represents war. But then i would also have to live with that choice and not bitch about it when my party launches an attack and then i get attacked back.
What's more, if i was told my whole life that the people next door are responsible for ALL of my suffering anf that the new party will avenge all my suffering, i would vote for the,. Which is what Hamas did. But the problem is that Hams/ andthe PA are largely responsible for much of the suffering by taking money that was intended for the people and using it on themselves and their war ideologies. So that get's back my original point about how Hamas can get elected by pointing the blame for all the Palestinians suffering on Israel and then vowing to avenge it all. That's Propoganda...
Patience young grasshopper....
The idea isn't to make enemies here and all that. Its to have an intellectual debate and try and make a point as clear as you can with concrete evidence and logic. If i just started going off on everyone then no one would listen or even read what i have to say. I let the other side do that when they have no more points left to argue. It always happens sooner or later.
I wasn't insulting you or your intelligence, merely stating that insults make you not appear intelligent.
It would be an insult to your intelligence to imply that you think the two are the same.
I agree with that completely.
I'll try and find time to reply to your other points in more detail later, but basically it's more down to the differences in circumstance than in basic ideology.
Just look at the actions taken by the terrorists/freedom fighters that founded the modern state of Israel, had they had the resources Israel now has I'm sure they wouldn't have used guerilla tactics and likewise if Hamas had laser-guided missiles they wouldn't be sending thousands of poorly aimed mortars, mostly hitting nothing, they would be destroying schools.
If Hamas had laser-guided missiles, Gaza would be a crater. The difference between the Israeli revolutionaries 50 years ago was that their enemy didn't pull any punches. The same cannot be said today of Hamas' enemy, primarily because of people like you.
Not quite sure what you mean...
Are you saying that it is due to "people like me" that Israel has been somehow restrained in it's action?
I doubt that is the case, but thanks for the compliment.
First of all, when you say "just look at the actions of israel..." you need to be more specific about what actions you are talking about. Israel was not formed by suicide bombers and deliberate rocket attacks on civilians...
And you bring up the exact point on why Hamas has to be taken out now (as well as Iran). Because one day Hamas will have all those capabilities.
And if you read the article you will notice the part on how Israel was fired upon FIRST from the school, and Then fired back. That is a prime example of how hamas uses their own people as human shields.
Israelis would not use those tactics, but their schools are still getting intentionally bombed.
Here's the deal. You need to open your eyes and look around the world. What it comes down to is that Islamists do not value life. Not their own lifes. Nother their fellow arabs lives. Not the lives of people in other religions. And CERTAINLY not jewish lives.
Seriously. Stop the debate for a moment and look around the world. Is there any other culture that kill thier own (Hamas rounds up activists after deadly rally - USATODAY.com, Hamas moves on Fatah 'collaborators' | Confronting Hamas | Jerusalem Post , see Shia vs. Suni, see Somalia, See Pakistan, See Afganistan/Taliban)
What other cultures tip over cars and throw molitov cocktails to protest?(see any article referencing "European Islamic Youths" and protests)
I am not aware of any Jewish/Israeli entities around the world doing any of the following:
- Targeting Arab embacies in other countries
-Targeting Islamic Mosques and Schools (5 jewish schools have received threats here in chicago alone over the past 2 weeks, as mentioned above, inlcuding my daughters daycare which has kids ages 10months-5 years). Also, synogauges are already being attacked in Europe.
- attacking Islamic civilians (last week 2 israelis were shot by a palastinian in a mall in Belgium. Also, see Mumbai)
The bottom line to al of this is that in it's extreme form it's a Savage belief system that commands killing and violence. Unfortunately the Extremist view is no longer the minority. And the moderates are hardly speaking out against the extremists.
Knowing all the FACTS about how the Islamic wold treats fellow arabs, and just Humans and general, and seeing that other cultures (especially Jews/Israelis do not do this), How come when people say Hamas is using their own people as human shields it all of a sudden becomes so impossible. Just look around the world. These people have ZERO care for anything living, including their own people. They have PROVEN this with their actions. How can this even be a debatable point?
A few more FACTS...
1. Arabs have been attacking and killing jews LONG before there was ever a stae of Israel. (See the 1929 Hebron Massacre and the second "Arab Revolt" from 1936-1939, where the arabs were not happy with the 75% of palastine the british divied out to them, so the revolted. Jews imagrated to British ruled Palastine legally and were given citizenship there along with the arabs)
2. When the Britts and the UN originally sought to divide the land, they wanted to evenly devide it based on population density of each faith. The jews accepted but the Arabs rejected that saying they wanted everything, which is still their ultimate goal today.
3.The day after israel was formed the surrounding Arab nations Attacked. Some 400,000 Palestinians left the country. But not because the Israeli's forced them out, like they would like you to believe, but because they were so sure that the other Arab countries would destroy Israel that they wanted to get outta there for the bloody battle and then come back when it was over. But it obviously didn't go that way. And they were ashamed. And so they use all the propogands saying the jews drove them all out. Do some real research and see if you can find anything to back up the claim that the jews forced 400,000 palestinians from their homes.. Videos, images, etc. You will find very litle b/c there was no mass expulsion by the Jews. The numbers dont ad up, the jews did not even have 500,000 people living in israel then. There were over a million arabs. No way they could have just drove half of them out with no resistance. It's a lie.
4. What is now named "Jordan" used to be part of the British mandated Palestine. When the Brits split the land, they gave that land to the arabs, but then called it Trans Jordan. After they attacked Israel in 1947 and lost, they then named that land "Jordan." and ended up with 85% of the original British mandated Palestine. Of course that wasn''t enough for them. So now that the area was Called "Jordan", they could pretend like it was a whole new country and not really palestine. That way they could try and claim back land from israel saying there was no Palestine, when in reality Jordan was the same land as Palestine.
And so here we are today with the Palestinians trying to murder their way back into the last bit of land they feel escaped them (although it never belonnged to them anyway. It was all mandated by the british, and then later parts (Gaza and the west bank and golan heights) were ruled by Egypt, Lebanon and Jordan, who then lost it after they attacked israel and lost.
Bottom line. Look at the nature of the peopl involved and ask yourself if you honestly think they are not using human sheild. And also read history. Not written by Arabs or jews, but look up some british colonial history and such...
You doubt that's the case? Israel can't sneeze without somebody accusing them of war crimes or violating international law. Their military is hamstrung, and they practice self-restraint, something their enemy decades ago didn't do, which is why the two situations are not similar in any facet. If Hamas didn't have the media and sympathizers like you to help them, they wouldn't exist, plain and simple. This is a phenomenon that only recently occurred - 50, 100 years ago, the nation with the biggest army won, period.
Again.. Sorry, as much as I want to I don't have the time to give you a decent reply. But...
Bottom line. The majority of the people involved are the ones being used, not those doing the using. Used as human shields, conscripted soldiers, suicide bombers, political pawns.... excuses to justify more killing.
The majority of people are the poor innocent fuckers that don't give a fuck about politics and religion and just want to lead a peaceful life.
I can sympathise more with who live in third world conditions and lose at least 10x more of their loved ones each year from this shit, and I can empathise more with the actions of the desperate than those of the powerful, but I can't side with either leadership. Both of the ruling elites are wrong, in it for their own gains (same shit here and in the US). Both populations are led towards supporting more extreme action with each life lost... a never-ending spiral of death. 99% of the time it's the innocent people that are suffering, not those calling the shots.
It can never be justified to punish the many for the actions of the few.
If Mexico was shooting missiles across the border, targeting civilians, how long would it take for the United States to retaliate?
- Status