Why are the richest in the US getting another tax break?

I'll go read the details you added....but I'm not thinking about myself.
I'm thinking about the "average" family on $30k year that is making a move. Obviously they are going to do it as cost effectively as possible. One or two uHaul trucks is all they need. Nothing more.

As I said, who's gonna drive their car? Where are kids gonna sit? (They obviously aren't legally allowed to sit in the back of a U-Haul).

You're pretty much going to have to hire labor. And that's where most of the money goes. Maybe $10k, was a bit high on my part. But at least $5-6k IMO.
 


As I said, who's gonna drive their car? Where are kids gonna sit? (They obviously aren't legally allowed to sit in the back of a U-Haul).

You're pretty much going to have to hire labor. And that's where most of the money goes.

No, you don't have to hire labor. You can fit a driver, plus 2 kids in each uHaul, in the passenger compartment. As for the car, if you've only got 1 uHaul, you drive the uHaul, the wife drives the car and kids...simple.

If you have 2 uHaul trucks, you and the wife each drive one, split the kids between them. As for your vehicles, uHaul and other companies have car trailers that you can trailer behind the truck, that would add about $400 for two cars...so 2 trucks and 2 cars is still just $2,400. And most people making $30k year aren't going to need 2 big trucks and 2 car trailers, that $2,400 is going to be on the very high end of the moving costs range. So again, nowhere near $10k.
 
And most people making $30k year aren't going to need 2 big trucks and 2 car trailers

I don't know man, I've seen people on incomes like that accumulate tons of shit over the years. And these lower income types tend to be packrats as well.

If you work from age 20-40 on an average income of $30k, that's like $600k to buy shit with (they also don't get taxed at a high rate).

You're right that many of them may not have too much stuff, but I've seen a lot of parents buy retardedly large toys for kids (since kids like to get the most absurdly big toys) that they really shouldn't have bought in the first place (like those battery powered cars that kids drive around).

Anyways, like I said in my previous edit, $10k was an overestimate. You can probably do it in half the price if the move is planned out frugally, but either way it's a lot of money for people on that type of fixed income.

I never intended to have a long debate on the cost of moving. I gave a high-end estimate for a comfortable move, and you cranked out numbers for the bare minimum.

My main point to jonas33h was it's not just as simple as "okay kids, since we're not wealthy let's just move to a place where cost-of-living is lower!" And his so-called "logic" was that $30k is more than enough money for anyone to live off of, and I was merely trying to point out how untrue this was.
 
I don't know man, I've seen people on incomes like that accumulate tons of shit over the years. And these lower income types tend to be packrats as well.

If you work from age 20-40 on an average income of $30k, that's like $600k to buy shit with (they also don't get taxed at a high rate).

You're right that many of them may not have too much stuff, but I've seen a lot of parents buy retardedly large toys for kids (since kids like to get the most absurdly big toys) that they really shouldn't have bought in the first place (like those battery powered cars that kids drive around).

Anyways, like I said in my previous edit, $10k was an overestimate. You can probably do it in half the price if the move is planned out frugally, but either way it's a lot of money for people on that type of fixed income.

I never intended to have a long debate on the cost of moving. I gave a high-end estimate for a comfortable move, and you cranked out numbers for the bare minimum.

My main point to jonas33h was it's not just as simple as "okay kids, since we're not wealthy let's just move to a place where cost-of-living is lower!" And his so-called "logic" was that $30k is more than enough money for anyone to live off of, and I was merely trying to point out how untrue this was.

Fair enough. I will say this though: If they do have a lot of stuff, but they really want to move on the cheap....they have a big garage sale and/or use craigslist to get rid of a lot of things. Cash in their pocket, plus an easier move.
 
But with teachers, if you have them bitching and hating on life, then it rubs off on the students. And you have shitty students too. You can get a drill sergeant to bark orders at the teachers, but that won't make them good leaders. That's where I mainly disagree with REIMktg. It's like the saying, "You can't teach an old dog new tricks," and in this case the teachers I'm referring to are the old dogs. The only solution is to replace them with better and more qualified people.

You simply identify metrics where you can rate the teachers and an immediate tracking ysstem to identify and assist students that fall behind. Leadership is motivating, not barking orders. You treat the teachers like a sales team, poor attitude = poor results = poor pay.

Besides, if you incentive success on all levels everything else will work itself out over time. Even in large bureaucracies. Make the right rules and the slow moving bureaucrats will make any decision, even if irrational, to meet the bureaucratic rules.

Teachers complain about standardized testing, they complain about bad parents, they complain about un motivated students, they complain about school supplies etc.

I want to complain about teachers. They run their union right? Then why does the teachers union give over 510% more to politicians just in Illinois than Exxon does nationwide?

Because the teachers and their unions are running and ruining the country.

Teachers are overpaid because their employers are politicians. When the teachers are able to hire their bosses through elections and their unions, well you can see the problem. If my boss owed his job to me then he would never fire mire and give me every raise I asked for.

If teachers want to keep their monopoly on education then all the public asks is to have top notch students come out of the system. Stop teaching BS like global warming and how to use a condom and get back to math, science, engineering, and the humanities.

One more thing - give some of my rich investors a tax break so I can make some of these low margin investments I have on my desk work with a high enough margin for them to invest. In my world - if the taxes make the investment feasible I can free up millions in investor cash and put a lot of people to work. .... that is how it works. A real world example.
 
You simply identify metrics where you can rate the teachers and an immediate tracking ysstem to identify and assist students that fall behind. Leadership is motivating, not barking orders. You treat the teachers like a sales team, poor attitude = poor results = poor pay.

Besides, if you incentive success on all levels everything else will work itself out over time. Even in large bureaucracies. Make the right rules and the slow moving bureaucrats will make any decision, even if irrational, to meet the bureaucratic rules.

Teachers complain about standardized testing, they complain about bad parents, they complain about un motivated students, they complain about school supplies etc.

I want to complain about teachers. They run their union right? Then why does the teachers union give over 510% more to politicians just in Illinois than Exxon does nationwide?

Because the teachers and their unions are running and ruining the country.

Teachers are overpaid because their employers are politicians. When the teachers are able to hire their bosses through elections and their unions, well you can see the problem. If my boss owed his job to me then he would never fire mire and give me every raise I asked for.

If teachers want to keep their monopoly on education then all the public asks is to have top notch students come out of the system. Stop teaching BS like global warming and how to use a condom and get back to math, science, engineering, and the humanities.

One more thing - give some of my rich investors a tax break so I can make some of these low margin investments I have on my desk work with a high enough margin for them to invest. In my world - if the taxes make the investment feasible I can free up millions in investor cash and put a lot of people to work. .... that is how it works. A real world example.

I guess we can both agree on one thing: Teachers unions are abusing their power, and this needs to stop. I would rather see them abolished entirely, but at the very least they need to be restricted.

On the other hand, I think it's a good thing that schools are teaching kids to use condoms. We already have way too many pregnant teens, abandoned kids in orphanages, and a population crisis in general.

Also, I have a pet peeve with Phys Ed classes. Either have a all-out legit PE program that makes kids exercise, or get rid of it completely. Most public schools have PE classes where literally the only requirement is to show up on time in the proper attire, and you get an A. And then the class does some random "athletic activity" like kickball or badminton. Half the class just kinda stands around looking disinterested. What a waste of time.
 
Excuse me, but HOW THE FUCK ARE THESE PEOPLE BEING HIRED IN THE FIRST PLACE??? You probably know better than me, so please enlighten me.

Just out of curiosity, under what type of ground was this teacher fired? Because literally the only times I've heard of teachers getting fired are:

A. Have sex with a minor.
B. Have a fight with an administrator.

They are hired because they either:

A. Know somebody higher up.
B. Have the right certification - regardless of how well they did in class - and can meet state or federal requirements.
C. Are a warm body in a school where there is a chronic shortage of teachers. This, by the way, is about to get worse. I can't recall exactly, but there are something like 3.2 million teachers, and 1.6 of them are Baby Boomers and will retire in the next 10 years. How's that for job security?

This teacher was fired because she was an idiot. She exchanged gossip with students, had a multitude of "illnesses", couldn't handle any discipline and finally she talked to students during a district benchmark for the standardized testing. I mean it was to the point that kids who don't actually like school and hate testing where complaining to the principal that they couldn't even fail in peace because she just kept up a running commentary. I believe the final straw was when she allowed students to dig through the files of other students - "filing" papers or some such thing, including special ed students who are federally protected, blah, blah, blah.

They got rid of another one this year who didn't teach a damn thing all year. She showed movies constantly and told her seniors to tell the other teachers they wrote an essay. If they all lied about it, none of them would have to write it. Apparently someone forgot to lie. Oops.

We have plenty that bitch and moan about all sorts of things and urge me to call my representatives and the like. They are all big advocates of the unions, but in Texas unions don't do a damn thing for you except provide legal support if you're sued by a parent. I opted out of the unions and I'm gambling without what we call "teacher insurance", but I'd rather risk a lawsuit, which is unlikely, than pay $40 a month for that nonsense. It's not a common sentiment, however.

At Rebecca:

If education were conducted in a completely free market, where parents were the customers and teachers were the producers, I'd pay a healthy premium to send my kids to you.

EDIT: Given your background, you might enjoy this piece by John Gatto.


<insert> arguments about how customers are the only ones who can subjectively value a good or service, blah, blah, blah. </insert>

Many thanks!

In a sense, there is some freedom to the educational marketplace. I moved across an interstate within the same school district just so I was aligned with the elementary, intermediate and high school of my choice. The others weren't good enough for me, even though the district as a whole is outstanding. LOL I'm a total educational snob, but then others have the option to move as well to a district or within a district that has heavier community control if they like - it's not something that's easily affordable for many families, but we made it happen and many do.

Another aside, with the budget constraints on many districts, they are opening up boundaries and allowing tuition-based or just open enrollment. This might give more families in some of these areas an opportunity to get into a better school or at least a better school district than the one they are in now. It's happening more and more since every student = more money from the state. It will be interesting to watch where the students go.
 
When the teachers are able to hire their bosses through elections and their unions, well you can see the problem. If my boss owed his job to me then he would never fire mire and give me every raise I asked for.

I can see how you would think that but in my experience that is not at all how it works. There is way more in play than you have described it.

If teachers want to keep their monopoly on education then all the public asks is to have top notch students come out of the system. Stop teaching BS like global warming and how to use a condom and get back to math, science, engineering, and the humanities.

Get the voting public involved to get corporate lobbies out of DC and away from the influence of education. Think tanks, text book publishers, security companies, these are the highest order of enemies to public education.
 
I can see how you would think that but in my experience that is not at all how it works. There is way more in play than you have described it.

Get the voting public involved to get corporate lobbies out of DC and away from the influence of education. Think tanks, text book publishers, security companies, these are the highest order of enemies to public education.


It is not the corporate lobbies that are listed as the top contributors to the candidates - it is the unions. If the teachers, who control the unions through votes, wanted a change for the better of the students, it would happen - nationwide.

Describe to me what else is in play - because I have worked for lobbyists, I have sat there while they allocated contributions, I have watched laws being written and formulated - crap one of our brochures said that if we cannot get around a law, we will change it. The teachers unions, all unions for that matter are the most powerful forces around - they can command a volume of contributions that is unmatched by any corporation. They can have a contribution made on behalf of every member of the union to each individual candidate that hits the federal max contribution limit - corporations cannot do that for every employee.

The teachers unions are destroying the future, one child at a time. And the teachers, just like Nazi soldiers, are complicit in this destruction. A s long as they get theirs, they look the other way.
 
If the US will reconstruct their Law or regulations about taxation, they should also consider the rich charity fund campaign. This makes them less taxes and has been used for several times to have exemptions in taxes from their high rocketing business and income.

Perhaps we could give a bonus to the rich. Give them flowers on their graves.lol
 
It is not the corporate lobbies that are listed as the top contributors to the candidates - it is the unions. If the teachers, who control the unions through votes, wanted a change for the better of the students, it would happen - nationwide.

Describe to me what else is in play - because I have worked for lobbyists, I have sat there while they allocated contributions, I have watched laws being written and formulated - crap one of our brochures said that if we cannot get around a law, we will change it. The teachers unions, all unions for that matter are the most powerful forces around - they can command a volume of contributions that is unmatched by any corporation. They can have a contribution made on behalf of every member of the union to each individual candidate that hits the federal max contribution limit - corporations cannot do that for every employee.

The teachers unions are destroying the future, one child at a time. And the teachers, just like Nazi soldiers, are complicit in this destruction. A s long as they get theirs, they look the other way.

I hear you. It's hard to appreciate system dynamics until you've been on the inside.

School boards are the boss at the local level, where shit actually happens. They hire and fire, they decide on curriculum, divvy out monies from the budget, etc.

If a school has an inspiring principal who leads teachers well and a board member butts heads with them, the board member can launch a devil whisper in the ear campaign among other board members. Bye bye principal, bye bye leadership, and the teachers' inspiration drops a couple notches. And unlike teachers unions do not always fight, and if they do they don't always win when it comes to principals and other admin types.

Something to consider regarding teacher's unions: States have varying trial periods where the teacher's contract is non-renewing. One year, that's it, we don't like you then you're done. Some it's two years, some three, I think some are five years. If a teacher's contract is not renewed, no union is going to bat for them. They're done. If the district signs them to a renewing contract after the specified number of years, the union is g9oing to go to bat for them because the district has signaled that the teacher is competent.

Now of course - of course - people change, they get lazy, start drinking mouthwash, etc. I've seen two teachers get fired and in both cases the thing that made it happen was the amount of documentation that the principal and admins had gathered on these people. The unions didn't have a case, but more importantly, the admins actually gave a shit to get them out. And that's the point - a good amount of the timeteachers aren't fired because the people who would got those balls rolling don't want to draw attention to their own shitty administrative and managerial work. And I absolutely include parents in that that role of 'administrative and managerial work'. Your kids, your tax dollars, but all you do is bitch? Stop cursing the darkness and light a candle. Get in there and do something. (Not you, parents in general)

Many, many principals would rather have a bunch of lazy, shitty teachers who don't think for themselves and do whatever the principal says because it makes their job easy. It's an intrinsic problem with government - it takes vigilant participation from the public to hold people accountable and make it work. So in that absence of that are they going to hire innovators? No. Are they going to recommend their shitty teachers hang up their spurs? No.

That's another common thread between teachers and sales: sales people often get promoted into management because they're number one in sales, but that does not necessarily mean they have the management skills required of their new positions. So it is with teachers and principals.

And on the flip side is the very real possibility that a good principal can stock a school with good teachers, then get fired or leave, and a new principal comes in and tries to clean house. Been there. And it's pretty fucking cool having someone in your corner at that point because it can destroy decades of good work that other leaders have put into strengthening an educational community.

You are absolutely right that teachers are a lot like a sales team. It's something that good teachers undertstand implicitly. Teachers are in sales. We hawk information. And if students aren't buying it we're not doing our jobs. And just like a powerful sales team, there is almost always a talented sales manager behind the scenes leading the team. That to me is one of the biggest problems, just like so much of government these days. Important positions of leadership and authority are clogged with douchebags because people stopped participating and paying attention to anything but national elections. They don't even know the names of the principals of their schools, let alone the super/assistant super.

In my experience the best school districts, where kids really learn and exercise their minds, have two things in common: money and an active school board, who reads the latest in educational theory, is active in the community, etc. And believe me those two things are a fucking rarity these days.

And you mention global warming, shitty teaching skills, teaching shit that doesn't matter. You're right. And some of that definitely is because there are shitty teachers teaching right now. But a lot of it comes from uphill and lands on teachers' shoulders and there's not much they can do about it.

I have literally been told not to use specific teaching methods which were more effective than those in the suggested lesson plans because the methods were outdated and ineffective. How do you explain to your students that they can't keep learning a body of knowledge with the amount of success they've been enjoying.

And it's important to understand how that comes to be: corporate/government/ivory tower think tank hacks -> DC policy -> State/local curriculum design and graduate school teacher indoctrination -> teachers pooping on the minds of their students

Not to mention trophy parents - and it's not just isolated families now, it's becoming more and more of an accepted norm about school in general - who refuse to accept that their child is a spoiled little shit or a disruptive bully or a dishonest cheat or bla bla bla. It's not the parents, not the admin, not their friends, not pop culture, no no no, it's the teacher's fault.

One of the best teachers I have worked with had to defend her assessments because she caught a student cheating - twice - and the parents said their little snowflake was so smart that if she needed to cheat then the tests were too hard.

A district I worked in literally did not fail students. Literally. Think about that shit for a second.

Not to mention curriculum designers and educational 'consultants'. I don't usually make generalizations but these people for the most part are worthless and suck at life, they leech from school districts, don't do anything productive, and literally dictate corrupt theory to school boards, hawking the latest text books showing a plane laying a chemtrail with a caption telling students that Obama is spraying everyone to cool down the earth and seed more unicorn eggs into the fertile lands of America. Fucking rodents.

I'm solution oriented, I don't like bitching about what's wrong, and a lot of this stuff is easy to fix with lesislation. But a good amount of this stuff simply will not change until parents start showing up to school board meetings by the hundreds with lists of grievances in their hands.

A last thing to consider about publc/private school, unio0ns, etc. I've read enough elite memoirs and think tank white papers to conclude that the powers that be would just love to privatize school in their selectively regulated fake free market, set up a bunch of retarded rules that make no sense to 90% of parents, and then price it out into intergalactic space until education returns to the way it was for however many hundreds or thousands of years you want to go back into history. i.e. inaccessible. You think people are fucking dumb now. Get rid of a mandate for public education and feed it to 'the market'. You ain't seen nothin yet.

</rant>
 
As I said, who's gonna drive their car? Where are kids gonna sit? (They obviously aren't legally allowed to sit in the back of a U-Haul).

You're pretty much going to have to hire labor. And that's where most of the money goes. Maybe $10k, was a bit high on my part. But at least $5-6k IMO.

you answered your own questions as far as your car you drive the Uhaul have a friend drive your car.

If you're married with kids it's easier they all help load unload wife drives car with kids in car.

You make no sense my sister just moved from florida back to ohio and did what Jman said didn't cost over 2k.

If you only make 30k you find ways to make it work.... maybe you just have trouble thinking out side the box of be lazy and paying everyone to do things...people who only make 30k probably don't own a piano mostly likely a keyboard think about the demographic they aren't going to buy such items if they are sensible with their money...

and if they over spend well that's their problem get rid of it.
 
You guys monitoring this shit? Looks like there's a good chance they're going to reform the US tax code into 3 brackets, so the highest rate will be 29%. That's 6% down from the current highest rate of 35%. Yet, they're expecting to raise an additional $1 trillion in revenues, so when all is said and done, that probably means the middle class is going to get fucked with an even larger red, white & blue pole.

poorfag detected
 
you answered your own questions as far as your car you drive the Uhaul have a friend drive your car.

How is the friend supposed to get back home? Great, that means I'll still have to pay for his way back home.

people who only make 30k probably don't own a piano mostly likely a keyboard think about the demographic they aren't going to buy such items if they are sensible with their money...

Aren't you the one who kept insisting that "all poor people are dumb" and don't know how to budget their money?
 
I'm a little late on this thread but I kind of agree with an earlier point that only tax payers should be allowed to vote, or at least, only tax payers should be allowed to vote for whether taxes are higher or lower.

I don't think its a stretch to say that our current system has generated large gaps of non-representation for anyone in between poverty and uber rich. The "hiring lobbyist in DC" rich corporations don't need to vote, because they just work on the politicians already in office. The poor vote in droves because they vote for whoever is going to bring in the most money in entitlements for them.

I'm not saying all big corporations and all poor people act this way, just saying that the ones that to drastically overpower or outnumber the people who actually make this country work.

The solution would be a flat tax for everyone, fair tax, or no income tax at all. We did fine without an income tax, and things have only gone to hell since it's been established.
 
rather than calling it "getting a tax break" (as if we were getting some kind of special treat or bonus, an actual benefit), how about we call it what it really is: "getting less stolen from"
 
I think the Republicans should not call it a tax break for the rich but a Keynesian way to put money into the economy quickly. This would appeal to the Dem's.

I read yesterday and agree that it is possible that the Dem's stimulus would have worked if they allowed the money into the economy and not to their cronies and unions. If they actually had shovel ready jobs, which they did not.

The only reason a tax break works is because it puts money into the hands of those that do have shovel ready jobs - the current employers. Or those to whom the rich will spend their money - who are in and of themselves shovel ready employers.

This simple tweak could make it more palatable to the Dem's. Keynes can work in the short run, but only if the cash is allocated quickly and not hoarded/wasted by non productive parts of society. (unions, city coffers, etc)
 
rather than calling it "getting a tax break" (as if we were getting some kind of special treat or bonus, an actual benefit), how about we call it what it really is: "getting less stolen from"

Indeed. It's surreal.

It's as if folks have gotten so accustomed to being raped four times a day, they react like this when told they'll be raped only three times on Thursdays...


victory-guy-cheering-shouting-from-mtn.jpg



For anyone interested in a historical look at the income tax:

The Origin of the Income Tax - Adam Young - Mises Daily

The Income Tax: Root of all Evil, by Frank Chodorov - - Mises Institute