Zeitgeist: Moving Forward

[moose88]

Bread and circuses is the future for humanity.

Thats all been done before. make the population stupid, and make them feel worthless and that the only way they can ever be enlightened is through consumption and having money. thus keeping them on the treadmill until they have died, contributing nothing but just being a transfer agent of money.

You could argue that money is a good motivation for innovation, but I would argue that it is a hindrance.

The thing is, we should learn from history, what is being suggested in that film has never been done before.

edit: @ andrew - funny thing is I kind of thought that it might be like that aswell, but I Think there should be a balance of dependency on technology. I think that artificial intelligence will never take over, its just a myth fueled by hollywood. I think that technology will have the same affect as the motor did on human society, and motors require external energy (fuel) in order to work. I think it will be the same with the computers of tomorrow, they will operate so long as we have switched them on, and when we dont need them, just hit the off button.

 

[cardine]

Thats all been done before. make the population stupid, and make them feel worthless and that the only way they can ever be enlightened is through consumption and having money. thus keeping them on the treadmill until they have died, contributing nothing but just being a transfer agent of money.

We will not need to make the population stupid. In comparison to super-intelligent AI, humans would be stupid.

edit: @ andrew - funny thing is I kind of thought that it might be like that aswell, but I Think there should be a balance of dependency on technology. I think that artificial intelligence will never take over, its just a myth fueled by hollywood. I think that technology will have the same affect as the motor did on human society, and motors require external energy (fuel) in order to work. I think it will be the same with the computers of tomorrow, they will operate so long as we have switched them on, and when we dont need them, just hit the off button.

Technology is far too integrated with our lives to be able to be 'turned off'. You know how fucked America would be if the internet would be turned off?

Imagine what it would be like if our economy depended on artificial intelligence. There's no way you could turn that off without fucking yourself over.
Travel would be impossible when artificial intelligence controls our primary form of transporation.

The stock market would tank because all stocks trading would be done by computers which would generate far better returns than any human could.

Our military would crumble since we would be relying only on unarmed military to defend our country.

Have fun trying to turn AI off once it is here.

 

[moose88]

my comments in bold

We will not need to make the population stupid. In comparison to super-intelligent AI, humans would be stupid.

Isnt that the case today? If we made the schooling system teach technology as a primary subject (say as opposed to the crap they teach in schools today) Then we would be able to teach people how to use and create and fix bugs. Imagine a whole school system based on this.


Technology is far too integrated with our lives to be able to be 'turned off'. You know how fucked America would be if the internet would be turned off?
your talking about today, im talking about tomorrow, 2 different subjects.

Imagine what it would be like if our economy depended on artificial intelligence. There's no way you could turn that off without fucking yourself over.
Travel would be impossible when artificial intelligence controls our primary form of transporation.

I agree with you, thats why human involvement is always necessary. Artificial intelligence should only progress so much. However automation and using technology to do every day jobs, like serving food in a restaurant doesnt require AI

The stock market would tank because all stocks trading would be done by computers which would generate far better returns than any human could.

Would we need a stock market if there was no need for money?

Our military would crumble since we would be relying only on unarmed military to defend our country.

Would we need a military if their was no need for money?

 

[LotsOfZeros]

whats wrong with that....... would be balanced fairly.

If you control the people and choose whats best for your own interests. the people will eventually revolt.

(*sigh*... where's Guerilla when we need him?)

Moose, you're too wet behind the ears for a reality slap so I'm just going to tell you the economy works best when people are out for their best interest .... and please don't drone on about how people need the force of government to be charitable (I already heard it in college).

Never underestimate the power of private charity - it's a business run better privately.

And another thing: nothing in life is 'fair'. It never will be no matter how utopian your next president is. Once you come to grips with that and start thinking in terms of being a realist instead of an idealist, you will find much more peace within yourself.

 

[moose88]

(*sigh*... where's Guerilla when we need him?)

Moose, you're too wet behind the ears for a reality slap so I'm just going to tell you the economy works best when people are out for their best interest .... and please don't drone on about how people need the force of government to be charitable (I already heard it in college).

Never underestimate the power of private charity - it's a business run better privately.

And another thing: nothing in life is 'fair'. It never will be no matter how utopian your next president is. Once you come to grips with that and start thinking in terms of being a realist instead of an idealist, you will find much more peace within yourself.

Like ive said, I dont think things will change anytime soon, its not about the next president, or the next 5 presidents, its about gradually making changes so our childrens children and most importantly the world itself can begin to recover.

and in regards to "so I'm just going to tell you the economy works best when people are out for their best interest"

The interests of any corporation isn't going to benefit anybody except the corporation because thats the whole point of its existance.

edit: and also just to add, I think within the next 5 years there is going to be a MAJOR movement away from our current way of living - certainly something about the economy and the money we use. Whether people will wake up or not once this 'change' happens, I dont know.

I think there will be a major depression, followed by a global currency to "fix" the problem. The way China is doing right now, I think we will be using the yuan.

 

[rollyourown]

Gerald Celente of Trends Research really is a brilliant mind.

Forecasting, Tracking and Analyzing Global Trends | Trends Research Institute

 

[shakalaka]

Look guys. The whole reason for money is due to scarcity. We don't pay for oxygen because its not scarce. We do pay for food, we do pay for water. All three are necessities of life.

Money is simply a form of trade. Its a convenient and relatively efficient mechanism of exchange relative to barter (which is what they used in the ancient world economies such as Egypt). Money is not wealth. Its a means of moving wealth around. Wealth is goods or property such as cars or real estate. Wealth is what improves our standard of living.

People are talking all this doom and gloom about AI and exponential technological growth. Its nonsense. Lets put this into perspective.

AI, if it were ever to be invented, would essentially be equivalent to a human. Which means it would have full rights and sovereignty over itself. It could chose to do what it wanted with its own faculties. These doom and gloom scenarios all assume AI will be either

1. Our slaves to do our bidding basically (increase productivity, technology etc)
2. We become obsolete or our economy collapses because they take human jobs.

The answer is neither should happen. Creating an AI is no different than creating a super smart human, because they both have the same capabilities for reason and logic (which is what makes us human). The only difference is one is biological and one is machine.

The real issue is whether we should "outsource" every productive function of society to intelligent machines or not. And I ask, if they have the same legal status as a human but not the same requirements (food, water, etc) why should they? They have completely different incentives and survive by a different method. They probably wouldn't even need money.

The future will be alot more interesting than any of us here can imagine.

 

[moose88]

But we have enough renewable resources that should feed and cloth all 7 billion of us on this planet,

If we bring money into the equation then using that as a sole means of motivation for people to get up and go to work, Then you have a situation where there are winners and losers - some people will need to produce and some people will need to consume.

And we are the consumers. all we do is consume just to keep the gears of the world turning. In our life times nothing will change because we are just consumers. the same people will be in charge, and the starving countries will continue to starve because thats the status quo, but movies like zeitgeist are asking the viewer to question the "american dream" and think that there is a different view from what we have been bought up to believe in.

Personally on the subject of artificial intelligence, I think its was over rated, and almost a myth. Its like perpetual motion, in theory it sounds plausable but its simply not.

I believe when it comes to computers, they can never become more then what they are programmed to do. what you put in is what you get out.

I believe that machines should take over 90% of the workforce, and the remaining 10% should be rehabilitated criminals.

Then there would be the challenge of what should we do if there is no work or money... Personally I dont know but I think it should be centered around education and innovation.

 

[pat J]

Hmm, forcing people to produce goods in areas to minimize freight costs is centrally planned and ignoring comparative advantage. And anyway, any of these schemes need to be planned by a central government, otherwise, how are you going to coordinate all these people?

You obviously didn't watch the movie if you think it has anything to do with people being forced or even being involved in the production of anything.

 

[moose88]

Funny thing is the majority of opposers on this thread havent watched the whole thing. Thats like reading 1 quarter of the book but giving a book review as if you know what it is about.

 

[Lucidity]

Sounds a lot like what Marshall Brain talks about in Manna. I'd take Robot Utopia over 2011 society any day if it were that easy. Thing is, these resource based economy theories never go into any sort of detail about how the government would work or how things would actually be decided. There's really no way to get around having a really shitty government & ruling class doing all the same things the video complains about, no matter how resources are distributed. And it only gets worse the larger the scale.


I think my plan is more realistic: bank as hard as I can on the internet before the fad is over, buy a tropical island, train a private military comprised of hot women rescued from the 3rd world, and Mad Max it to the max after the shit hits the fan.

 

[robognome]

... buy a tropical island, train a private military comprised of hot women rescued from the 3rd world, and Mad Max it to the max after the shit hits the fan.

I think you may need to elbow your way past the investments bankers at the tropical island counter. And I think they already have all the hot ninja chicks on retainer. So you're already in a bidding war with the big boys.

 

[moose88]

Ill stick with a few acres of land, stockpile of guns and ammo - seeds to grow everything needed for the next 20 years - inc fertaliser etc. few animals... thats all you need.

 

[cardine]

my comments in bold

It's not like everything is normal, then suddenly we wake up and everything is virtually free. By the time we reach that point it would be impossible to turn off AI because they're the only reason everything is virtually free. At that point the entire world is completely dependent on AI and you'd be past the point of no return.

I was talking about the time between now and then where you'd still have the chance to 'turn off' AI. And it would still be impossible.

 

[moose88]

ok what if we didn't have AI, we would still be able to get rid of 90% of the workforce. I am not interested in AI, I think AI and robotic automation are 2 different things.

its happening as we speak anyways, go into your supermarket and half of the cashiers are replaced with self service check outs. go into your factory and 3 quarters of the human jobs are replaced with machines..

I think this is a terrible trend for humanity when we depend on money to survive.

But if we take money out of the equation, the trend is actually a brilliant fiat of human ingenuity.

 

[cardine]

ok what if we didn't have AI, we would still be able to get rid of 90% of the workforce. I am not interested in AI, I think AI and robotic automation are 2 different things.

its happening as we speak anyways, go into your supermarket and half of the cashiers are replaced with self service check outs. go into your factory and 3 quarters of the human jobs are replaced with machines..

I think this is a terrible trend for humanity when we depend on money to survive.

But if we take money out of the equation, the trend is actually a brilliant fiat of human ingenuity.

Yeah but it'll take AI to replace the programmer who codes the site you use, or harvest your crops for you.

Until then there will still be money, as there will be demand for goods and services that only humans can provide.

 

[moose88]

Yeah but it'll take AI to replace the programmer who codes the site you use, or harvest your crops for you.

no it wont. I dont even want to argue this point with you - because I guess its a matter of opinion. If we can programme a computer to launch a space craft in the air without AI, then we can certainly do the same for more mundane daily jobs.

Until then there will still be money, as there will be demand for goods and services that only humans can provide.

This is a totally different subject that we could talk of for hours and hours, As far as I remember I dont think Zeitgeist even mentions money - This is just something I think. If the majority of crimes are about money, then I think that it is in humanities best interest to find a different way to operate.

 

[cardine]

no it wont. I dont even want to argue this point with you - because I guess its a matter of opinion. If we can programme a computer to launch a space craft in the air without AI, then we can certainly do the same for more mundane daily jobs.

I don't think you understand how AI works. Read about Moravec's Paradox, which explains why you are completely wrong and how 'mundane' jobs are not nearly as trivial as you make them out to be.

If the majority of crimes are about money, then I think that it is in humanities best interest to find a different way to operate.

Without money there is no incentive to improve or to thrive. Capitalism works.

 

[pat J]

Yeah but it'll take AI to replace the programmer who codes the site you use, or harvest your crops for you.

Until then there will still be money, as there will be demand for goods and services that only humans can provide.

Until then, yes, probably. But we're not far from that. Harvesting crops/fruits/vegetables can already be done automatically.

No one is saying that this can be done right now, but it's just a matter of time.

 

[cardine]

Until then, yes, probably. But we're not far from that. Harvesting crops/fruits/vegetables can already be done automatically.

No one is saying that this can be done right now, but it's just a matter of time.

I agree completely; I think we'll be there around 2030.