Fuck You Barack Obama

I think you tried to twist out this contradiction in an edit, but it's still there.
You will have to demonstrate a contradiction, because I feel I am pointing one out.

Truth is, people can create things that are amazingly beneficial to humanity when they aren't driven by a profit motive. Not saying that profit-motivated things can't be beneficial, but where general good is at odds with profit, profit wins out more than not.
Free market value theory understands the profit is psychological, not monetary. All human action is driven by profit, or the desire to improve a situation/impact the world.

No one is claiming that a monetary profit is required for anything. What I am saying is that government steals what it supposedly "creates" with. It doesn't provide services in the market, it doesn't compete. If you do not do as the government says, they put you in jail, and if you resist sufficiently, they will indeed kill you.

If the internet had been developed privately, we can only speculate, but I tend to think it would be much more like television - a 'push' medium, based on proprietary protocols, where the consumer is essentially fed commercially produced content. The concept of setting up your own website or blog might not even exist. Things like napster, bittorrent, etc. almost certainly wouldn't have existed. I think the development of the internet as a public resource has undoubtedly been much more beneficial than were it developed and kept private.
See Big Will's post. You do not understand networking.
 


Cable companies/telcos already have monopolies on high-speed access in many areas, wouldn't that be even easier if it were entirely privatized and unregulated?
How could you have a monopoly in an unregulated market where anyone could compete? Regulation creates monopolies by creating barriers to entry.

Be pretty easy for the big players to buy up all the spectrum rights to shut out any upstarts, and/or buy them out directly, and/or employ other 'methods' for generating compliance.
Who would own the spectrum rights in the first place? Again, government created the cable/telco monopolies by rationing access.

As for wireless, do you think the chips that run those wireless routers would have been developed to use non-proprietary protocols?
Chips can be reprogrammed. Check out Tomato wireless.

Sounds like a dystopian novel...
Here is a novel for you. Massive government conducts non stop robot bombing attacks outside the accept democratic safe zone against peasant goat farmers, while it steals trillions of dollars, feeding that wealth to the uber rich and global corporations. Politicians are elected, and immediately abandon their mandate to serve generational banking interests and the social values of the elite, while further consuming every resource in the system which isn't nailed down.

The average man is tasered for questioning authority, and watches helplessly as his 15 year old daughter is sexually molested at a transportation hub by some greasy, quasi-retarded government pedophile, under the guise of making everyone safer.

Dystopian enough for you? Or do you actually need a boot stamping on your face in order to see through the lie?
 
Everyone on Wickedfire is such a political and economical genius. The Internet, where everyone is a fucking expert on everything. Here's a tip, if anything either political party does affects you so much that it causes you to lose sleep and bitch on the Internet, you're doing it wrong. Learn how to play the game or GTFO.
 
This form of argument is a logical fallacy.

Absence of proof is not proof of absence. Nor does it invalidate a principle.

Which country is currently funded voluntarily and without systematic violence?


And yet?

I did not prove (nor attempt to prove) that such a state cannot exist. I stated that your belief in the feasibly of such a state is not currently grounded in a real and current example of one. You haven't disputed this point. You can argue all day for a utopia, and I can't prove that one can't exist, only that it doesn't.

You cannot know this. The government created the infrastructure for military purposes by stealing from the private sector, the FEDs never designed the commercial internet. The market did. Did the government also invent newspapers, books, television, music, radio and movies?

You're taking a very stupid line of argumentation. You're arguing that government can do things we cannot, and yet I am sure you would argue that government is made up of people just like us. Is Barack Obama a super human? Are congress the smartest people in the world?

The difference between government and us, is that we do things peacefully and voluntarily. Venture capitalists raise hundreds of millions to develop things without anyone being threatened with jail time. And yet Government can commit billions to all sorts of projects which we cannot do, like genocide and nuclear weapons development, only because it steals resources from those of us who produce in the private sector.

Government creates NOTHING. It steals and allocates. If government is truly our agent, then they can only do what we can do. And I cannot steal or mass murder. I have no moral authority to do that, and therefor, neither can any government agent who CLAIMS to represent someone.

Government does create things, regardless of how it acquires the required the resources to create those things. I'm not going to engage in an argument over semantics on an internet message board. And, I'm arguing that government creates things that otherwise WON'T be created, not that it creates things that otherwise CAN'T be created. Whether those things have as much value, or whether those things are created through forceable coercion, is irrelevant to the false premise that government doesn't create anything.

In the end, I cannot know for certain that without the government there would never be an internet, and you cannot prove that there WOULD be something similar in a "utopian" society that does not exist anywhere in our present world, which then I cannot prove would never actually exist. You have assumed that such a state is feasible, and I have assumed that certain functions of society are unlikely to be replicated without government involvement.
 
Everyone on Wickedfire is such a political and economical genius. The Internet, where everyone is a fucking expert on everything. Here's a tip, if anything either political party does affects you so much that it causes you to lose sleep and bitch on the Internet, you're doing it wrong. Learn how to play the game or GTFO.

Look at this guy all above the fray.
 
I did not prove (nor attempt to prove) that such a state cannot exist. I stated that your belief in the feasibly of such a state is not currently grounded in a real and current example of one.
I never claimed otherwise. I made a statement based on logic. If you want to deny logic, you will have to demonstrate a contradiction. The lack of a tangible example is not a contradiction, and your claiming so is a logical fallacy. This is all one big jerk off because you tried a bullshit rhetorical trick with me and got called on it. Save that weak shit for the retards on this forum, you should know better than to run that crap at me and think it will stick.

You can argue all day for a utopia, and I can't prove that one can't exist, only that it doesn't.
I don't argue for a utopia. I argue for rational and logical thinking.

Government does create things, regardless of how it acquires the required the resources to create those things.
Yes, and rapists are in loving relationships with their victims because it doesn't matter how they acquire physical intimacy. Seriously dude, you're grasping at straws to defend your programming.

In the end, I cannot know for certain that without the government there would never be an internet
And yet you claimed it...

and you cannot prove that there WOULD be something similar in a "utopian" society that does not exist anywhere in our present world
Again, I am not a utopian. I also didn't claim I could prove there would be an internet. This line of bullshit and dishonest argumentation really makes you look like an idiot, and we both know you are a clever guy, so maybe you should cut it out.

You have assumed that such a state is feasible
Yes, I have assumed that we can have a better society without institutional violence. In fact, I can demonstrate that institutional violence undermines society.

and I have assumed that certain functions of society are unlikely to be replicated without government involvement.
And you assume that human progress can only come from the institutional abuse and violation of human rights.

So which of us is wrong? Do you really want to be right?
 
You will have to demonstrate a contradiction, because I feel I am pointing one out.

Okay, you said "[x] created [y]" and then "[x] creates nothing," where x is the government and y is the infrastructure for the internet. Of course, you said it created it by stealing it from the private sector, by which you mean, I guess, they "stole" the resources (money, in this case) to pay some computer scientists to build the thing. It hadn't been built yet, so obviously they couldn't steal the thing itself.

Free market value theory understands the profit is psychological, not monetary. All human action is driven by profit, or the desire to improve a situation/impact the world.

A lot of political/philosophical arguments break down to bickering about differences in definitions. I was using the common or business definition of profit, which is monetary (or at least material), not a philosophical definition.

I stand by my assertion that the profit motive tends to lead to bad outcomes.

No one is claiming that a monetary profit is required for anything. What I am saying is that government steals what it supposedly "creates" with. It doesn't provide services in the market, it doesn't compete.

Well... "provide?" I don't know. There's a lot of people that have access to services and other things that they otherwise wouldn't if it weren't for the government "providing" them. I guess though, your argument is that it's stealing from one group to provide for another group. So it's both then, isn't it? Stealing and providing?

Is it moral to steal a little of a rich man's wealth to feed a poor man who cannot feed himself, or to teach him to feed himself if he can be taught? I think it is. Obviously, the scope of what a government does cannot be captured by a simple metaphor, but that represents at least a part of the role government plays.


If you do not do as the government says, they put you in jail, and if you resist sufficiently, they will indeed kill you.

Well... we have laws, yes. They have to be enforced or they're not worth the paper they're written on. Ostensibly, those laws were enacted democratically. Realistically, that is often not the case. No system is perfect. This one certainly isn't, but it may be the best we've got. Perhaps more importantly, it is the one we have currently. IMHO, we have to work with what we've got.

You're an ideological anarcho-capitalist, I know that. Your ideology may well be logically consistent, but frankly, it's pretty much impossible to get there from here without some major upheaval. There are too many entrenched structures riding on the current system for it to happen any other way.

As fun as it might be to pound that 'taxation = violent theft' argument, I think the reality of living in a world without a well funded public sector is not something most people are prepared for. I would no more want to live in a world where all resources are public than I would in world where everything is privatized. I think both extremes lead to bad outcomes and loss of freedom for the majority of people.

And continuing on...

How could you have a monopoly in an unregulated market where anyone could compete? Regulation creates monopolies by creating barriers to entry.

I think you're being disingenuous if you think monopolies won't happen without regulation. If you were a dominant player in a market, wouldn't you be employing every tool at your disposal to eliminate the competition? Startups typically have limited capital compared to established players, for a large enough company it would be trivial to undercut, buy out, or bleed out a small competitor.

Yes, government regulation is often used to advance the interest of corporations. But if there's enough public outcry, at least it has the muscle and legal standing to crackdown on corporate abuse. Government is, at least ostensibly, accountable to the public. In practice? Not enough, but better than nothing.

Who would own the spectrum rights in the first place? Again, government created the cable/telco monopolies by rationing access.

As an an-cap, I thought you believed in property rights? I have to admit to not being well-versed on its tenets - is radio spectrum not property?

Another point: if the spectrum isn't licensed, won't it be rendered effectively useless if everyone and their mother is using it?


Chips can be reprogrammed. Check out Tomato wireless.

Chips can be designed to damn near impossible to reprogram/crack. Check out DirecTV. Besides which, it's easy enough to triangulate rogue transmitters and shut them down.


Here is a novel for you. Massive government conducts non stop robot bombing attacks outside the accept democratic safe zone against peasant goat farmers, while it steals trillions of dollars, feeding that wealth to the uber rich and global corporations. Politicians are elected, and immediately abandon their mandate to serve generational banking interests and the social values of the elite, while further consuming every resource in the system which isn't nailed down.

The average man is tasered for questioning authority, and watches helplessly as his 15 year old daughter is sexually molested at a transportation hub by some greasy, quasi-retarded government pedophile, under the guise of making everyone safer.

Dystopian enough for you? Or do you actually need a boot stamping on your face in order to see through the lie?

No, I'm pretty well against those things to. I think most reasonable people are.

Look, those things could just as easily happen without any government. The difference is, they'd be private militaries securing land and resources for power-hungry warlords. They'd be private security personnel probing and frisking you at whatever transportation service/private property entry point you might happen to need to use or traverse to go somewhere. And unlike the government, those private militaries/security aren't accountable to anyone but their owners.

BTW, you really have a penchant for fear-inducing hyperbole... ever thought of going into politics? :P
 
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I stand by my assertion that the profit motive tends to lead to bad outcomes.
Right, because a rational economy has people running businesses at a loss, or not maximizing their profit by scaling success.

Is it moral to steal a little of a rich man's wealth to feed a poor man who cannot feed himself, or to teach him to feed himself if he can be taught? I think it is.
I think it is moral for you to work to feed him, not for you to take my money to feed him and yourself. Politicians do the latter.

You care so much about people, work more, produce more, create jobs and provide charity. You have no right however to demand that I produce charity for causes which you care about. To argue otherwise, is an endorsement of slavery.

You're an ideological anarcho-capitalist, I know that. Your ideology may well be logically consistent, but frankly, it's pretty much impossible to get there from here without some major upheaval. There are too many entrenched structures riding on the current system for it to happen any other way.
People made the same argument why blacks couldn't be freed from slavery. That it would be too hard to integrate them into white culture, Lincoln wanted to ship them back to Africa. The social hurdles were too big to climb. That's the argument you are making. We can't have nice things because it is too hard to change.

As fun as it might be to pound that 'taxation = violent theft' argument, I think the reality of living in a world without a well funded public sector is not something most people are prepared for.
Does this hand waving have any purpose? If I do not pay taxes, to fund the activities of others, I will be stolen from by force, incarcerated, and if I resist, killed. All for trying to protect my property.

Unless you want to argue there is no property, and everyone owns each other or no one owns anything at all. Make a real argument please.

I think you're being disingenuous if you think monopolies won't happen without regulation.
I am asking how they could. How could you have a monopoly where there is open competition?

You're not the first one to have this argument with me. The sad thing, is that you don't see that all the monopolies you complain about, happen underneath your beloved state.

If you were a dominant player in a market, wouldn't you be employing every tool at your disposal to eliminate the competition?
Sure, that's called competition. If you were not the dominant player in a market, you would do the same thing. Google didn't start out as the #1 search engine, and search engines were not regulated directly. How did Google overtake Yahoo? How did Facebook overtake MySpace?

Was it competition, better features and a better service? Why couldn't Yahoo and MySpace crush them?

Startups typically have limited capital compared to established players, for a large enough company it would be trivial to undercut, buy out, or bleed out a small competitor.
Which is precisely why the big firms write the regulation. So that it creates a barrier to entry for new startups and makes it impossible for those leaner companies to compete on price. That protects the high margins of the mega firms, and your favorite politicians are part of the racket.

Yes, government regulation is often used to advance the interest of corporations. But if there's enough public outcry, at least it has the muscle and legal standing to crackdown on corporate abuse.
Right, like when they punished Wall Street, AMIRITE?

As an an-cap, I thought you believed in property rights? I have to admit to not being well-versed on its tenets - is radio spectrum not property?
It is not.

Another point: if the spectrum isn't licensed, won't it be rendered effectively useless if everyone and their mother is using it?
The only person who can license it is an owner. The state claims to own it on behalf of everyone. Why then are they going against your wishes and establishing telco and cable monopolies?

Chips can be designed to damn near impossible to reprogram/crack. Check out DirecTV. Besides which, it's easy enough to triangulate rogue transmitters and shut them down.
So wouldn't this create a market for programmable chips? Why is it so hard for you to imagine market solutions, many of which already exist around you?

How would they shut down someone with a rogue transmitter? They would have no right to do so. The government shuts down people with rogue transmitters, to protect their monopoly buddies. I think you are not quite there yet, but are making a strong case that the government is actually chaos and anarchy is actually a natural order.

No, I'm pretty well against those things to. I think most reasonable people are.

Look, those things could just as easily happen without any government.
That was never the argument. They are happening intentionally BY THE VERY INSTITUTION YOU ENDORSE.

So don't try to pass it off. The institution you feel is so necessary is behaving in the very manner you are so worried we would have without government. Whether it is establishing violent monopolies, looting people, committing massive acts of violence OR sexually abusing people young and old, your government, the one you insist we need, is the one doing these things, not some fictional anarchist paradigm.

We have proof of who is doing wrong, and you REFUSE to address it.

BTW, you really have a penchant for fear-inducing hyperbole... ever thought of going into politics? :P
I prefer talking to idiots on the internet.
 
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They'd be private security personnel probing and frisking you at whatever transportation service/private property entry point you might happen to need to use or traverse to go somewhere. And unlike the government, those private militaries/security aren't accountable to anyone but their owners.

Specifically for this example, it already happens at high risk venues (some casinos, night clubs, etc) - but overall it's not in the profit interest of any business owner to frisk everyone who enters his restaurant, it would in fact deter people