Message to the Voting Cattle

I'm saying that people naturally seek power, in general. Human nature involves aggressive force. It's one thing that's been entirely constant throughout the entirety of human history. How do you get rid of that aggressive force?

I support the theory of anarchy, if we could live in an anarcho-capitalist world , that would be perfect. I just believe that human nature doesn't support such a model, and that a state would emerge given enough time, in all circumstances unless human nature changes fundamentally.

Just look at the body count of the war on terrorism, war on drugs etc in the USA. Is that not an aggressive force?

But I guess that's ok, because it's not you getting killed?

How can you support such a model? I am not saying that there will be no aggression in an Anarchy, but most aggression is currently done by governments.

It all starts by taking the support away from the government. Stop voting. If there is a big enough support in the population, I guess you could start not paying taxes and then defend your property if the blue robbers pay a visit.

But as I said before, I think that is unlikely in the near future, so I think we should create a society from scratch in international waters. Maybe I am crazy, but who cares.

Would you join an anarchistic society if one comes into existence?
 


Human nature involves aggressive force. It's one thing that's been entirely constant throughout the entirety of human history. How do you get rid of that aggressive force?

I disagree.

This will be short, but if you research it a little bit the invention of war came at the same time as the invention of Government.

There are 1,000+ miles long of rural stretches throughout North America. Very little (if any) state presence. A lot of people without strong defenses. Why aren't they occupied? Why aren't they under gang rule? Why aren't they at war with themselves?

Why doesn't the US invade Canada or Mexico?

How has Switzerland remained neutral in modern history?

Why did we fight WW1? The sinking of Lusitania

Why did we fight WW2? Pearl Harbor.

Why did we allow the military industrial complex to takeover? Fear of nuclear holocaust, communism, etc.

We went to Vietnam because they "attacked" us.

We're still in the Middle East because of 9/11.

I'm not going into false flags, etc. But EVERY war needs to be SOLD as a defensive act against a dangerous aggressor. People never want war. Those who stand to profit have to sell the idea.

General Butler had this figured out before WW2. Take 5 minutes to read this and you'll understand the motive behind virtually every single modern conflict. He was a Major General in WW1, he knows of what he speaks...

http://www.ratical.org/ratville/CAH/warisaracket.pdf
 
You don't NEED a security firm, you can also defend yourself. A firearm does not cost a lot of money and is a big equalizer, so even old people can defend themselves (remember that video of that old guy?).

You're skipping a bunch of details and questions I had, but that's to be expected since I asked so many. So thanks for replying anyway. Obviously the problem here is the old, poor guy with a gun can easily be outnumbered by pretty much any other force around. Also, are we all expected to be ex-navy seals and excellent marksmen?

Security firms would want a good image. So why would they not help poor people for free? Or maybe charities would take care of that? There are many options, I don't know how it will be solved for sure, but I know there are many possible solutions to that, the easiest one carrying a weapon.

So we're relying on the goodness of mankind to solve anarchy's inherent problems? Some of us question the reliability of the general goodness of mankind. You're talking about faith in an untested solution (anarchy). In fact, it has been tested and anarchy has failed many many times.

A monopoly can only exist if competition is forcefully removed, for example through government.

Totally untrue. A monopoly can also exist if property exists. If property exists then a company can buy up all land containing a certain resource. Then the resource company has a monopoly on something like oil. Nobody else can compete. Land itself is a resource. If property exists then a company could actually buy up an entire anarchy region and tell everyone else to get the fuck out. Anarchy gone. This is not impossible at all.

Anarchists often ignore the facts of limited land and resources.


Here you make the false assumption that they can just charge more money. Wrong. There will be competition around unless the firm takes them out by force, which likely will result in resistance from the people in that area.

Taking competition out by force or other tactics is exactly what I'm talking about. Firms will never have equal power. Competition often just leads to a winner.. and that winner is stronger and more powerful than everyone else. A devious firm could simply be supported by a devious company - like the above one I mentioned that bought up everyone's oil resources - or like the one that bought up all of the land in the region.

Of course the firm would always have a pretense for their actions.. until they're so powerful that they don't need a pretense. They'd never say that they were 'shooting innocent people'. They would say something like they are 'taking out non-anarchists who are angry that Standard Oil Corp has bought all of their land'. Standard Oil is just operating within standard free/anarchist principles! If you don't support Standard Oil then you don't support Anarchist principles and you are filth!

Standard Oil is also the firms largest supporter. Everyone else is poor because Standard Oil has won their land and wealth. Standard Oil wins. Breaking up monopolies would require populist laws which are not compatible with anarchy.. sorry.

There is almost no way that such firms could afford stealth fighters and nuclear and chemical weapons. They are simply not needed to do their job. So why would they buy them? If they do, competing firms will have lower running costs and take their market share.

Of course it's very possible for rich firms and companies to afford stealth fighters and nuclear/chemical weapons. It's not even much money to make chemical weapons. The reason they'd buy them?.. to help out their clients of course.. like Standard Oil who wants people off their lands.
 
Totally untrue. A monopoly can also exist if property exists. If property exists then a company can buy up all land containing a certain resource. Then the resource company has a monopoly on something like oil. Nobody else can compete. Land itself is a resource. If property exists then a company could actually buy up an entire anarchy region and tell everyone else to get the fuck out. Anarchy gone. This is not impossible at all.

Anarchists often ignore the facts of limited land and resources.

Oh, this argument again.

So you buy all the oil in the world and charge a lot of money. Fine, I'll run my car on cheaper biodiesel.

Not even taking into account of how unlikely it is for something like that to happen...

What would the price of the last oil field be in a free market if all the other have been taken off the market? Why would the owner even sell it?

And yeah if someone buys up the land (and the people want to sell it), then yes, they can order people off the land. Nothing wrong with that. But why would they sell? And if they sell, why don't they just buy land somewhere else and continue living as before?
 
WickedJoe, before I spend more time on arguing with you please answer this:

Do you believe the initiation of force is inherently wrong?

Would you accept the rule of someone taking all your belongings with force and leaves you just enough to survive?
 
I disagree.

This will be short, but if you research it a little bit the invention of war came at the same time as the invention of Government.

There are 1,000+ miles long of rural stretches throughout North America. Very little (if any) state presence. A lot of people without strong defenses. Why aren't they occupied? Why aren't they under gang rule? Why aren't they at war with themselves?

Why doesn't the US invade Canada or Mexico?

How has Switzerland remained neutral in modern history?

Why did we fight WW1? The sinking of Lusitania

Why did we fight WW2? Pearl Harbor.

Why did we allow the military industrial complex to takeover? Fear of nuclear holocaust, communism, etc.

We went to Vietnam because they "attacked" us.

We're still in the Middle East because of 9/11.

I'm not going into false flags, etc. But EVERY war needs to be SOLD as a defensive act against a dangerous aggressor. People never want war. Those who stand to profit have to sell the idea.


By contrast, I went to Starbucks this morning. There was no war. There was no aggressive force. Just a bunch of people interacting and exchanging voluntarily. It was a demonstration of anarchy.

I have the same experience at the grocery store. Same at nearby restaurants. Same at the gas station. It is very odd how people don't go to war with each other.
 
WickedJoe, before I spend more time on arguing with you please answer this:
Do you believe the initiation of force is inherently wrong?

I don't believe that anything is INHERENTLY right or wrong. I am a moral subjectivist.. which means I think shit happens and people just feel bad or good about it. People would like to label things as universally right or wrong but it's just their opinion. It's an opinion they want others to share so they label it 'universal' trying to convince others to believe the same thing.

So no, I don't think violent force is inherently wrong when i slaughter that cow to eat.


Would you accept the rule of someone taking all your belongings with force and leaves you just enough to survive?

If you're asking me whether or not I'd try to avoid someone taking my belongings by force - of course I would. I'm not sure what you mean by 'accept'. But yes, I'd try to avoid it. If it already happened though then there's likely little I can do about it unless I have the power to fight back. Or unless I decide to go out in a blaze of glory. Both are options I'd consider if the shit hits the fan.

Thanks for the replies guys, but as I suspected it's just likely we have different world views on what humans are and what we're capable of. You have more faith in humanity and the general goodness of mankind - despite all evidence IMO. It really does come down to that. Your arguments are really dreams of how things could be.. a faith that anarchy is the best solution to a shitty situation. It's faith because there's no evidence for it.

I do think it's interesting that some atheistic anarchists, that likely believe in evolution.. could contemplate humans living in anarchy without violence being a major factor. Violence has been in our DNA since our first single-celled ancestors came into being. Violence has been with us every step of the way along our evolutionary progress. We eat by commiting violent acts against animals and plants. We compete against each other and the world on the most basic and reliable level through violence. Now we're supposed to magically throw it out? It wont happen. Violence is a huge part of us.
 
I should have specified to initiation of force against another human being. Please note that it is the initiation of force, so self defense is no problem of course.

So your only problem with anarchy is that you don't believe that it is sustainable? Would you move to an anarchistic location if one would exist (where you would not give up your living standard of course)?
 
I don't believe that anything is INHERENTLY right or wrong.
Nonsense, you're arguing a positive position in this discussion.

I am a moral subjectivist.. which means I think shit happens and people just feel bad or good about it.
I think everyone believes that. That's not moral subjectivism. Moral subjectivism is the rejection of universals.

So no, I don't think violent force is inherently wrong when i slaughter that cow to eat.
How about if someone raped your loved ones?
 
I should have specified to initiation of force against another human being. Please note that it is the initiation of force, so self defense is no problem of course.

So your only problem with anarchy is that you don't believe that it is sustainable? Would you move to an anarchistic location if one would exist (where you would not give up your living standard of course)?


Ya my main prob with anarchy is that I don't think it's actually possible or sustainable in a hostile universe.

Would I move to an anarchist location if i didn't have to give up my standard of living. You mean be more free, w/out having to give up anything? Umm ya of course I would. I'd even move there if I had to give up some.. it's just a question of how much I'd have to give up. And I'd only move there if i was convinced it was a sustainable way of living. And I know all governments eventually fall.. so i mean relatively sustainable and stable.

Most of us know how shitty and criminal the current governments are.. its just that most of us also know that they're the least shitty they've ever been in history.. and that they're likely less shitty than when we were at constant clan wars with eachother in prehistoric times.

But nothing can beat the freedom that we had before the human population grew so much that we had to start making war and compromises with one another for land and resources, etc. That won't happen again.
 
oh its the anarchy thread again ;)

Brb listening to some Noam Chomsky audio books!


choms330.png
 
Ya my main prob with anarchy is that I don't think it's actually possible or sustainable in a hostile universe.

Would I move to an anarchist location if i didn't have to give up my standard of living. You mean be more free, w/out having to give up anything? Umm ya of course I would. I'd even move there if I had to give up some.. it's just a question of how much I'd have to give up. And I'd only move there if i was convinced it was a sustainable way of living. And I know all governments eventually fall.. so i mean relatively sustainable and stable.

Most of us know how shitty and criminal the current governments are.. its just that most of us also know that they're the least shitty they've ever been in history.. and that they're likely less shitty than when we were at constant clan wars with eachother in prehistoric times.

But nothing can beat the freedom that we had before the human population grew so much that we had to start making war and compromises with one another for land and resources, etc. That won't happen again.

Good to know.

So I won't spend any more time arguing details with you. Instead the efforts are better invested in making money to realize my (utopian?) idea of an anarchistic place.
 
I think everyone believes that. That's not moral subjectivism. Moral subjectivism is the rejection of universals.

Moral realism or objectivism is the belief that moral statements can express truths about the world independent from the human mind.

Moral subjectivism is the belief that moral statements don't represent any truths about the world separate from the human mind. To put it another way, the universe is just energy.. there is no inherent moral properties in energy. So what I mean was that shit happens, I feel good or bad about it, and don't conclude any universal truths about what happened based on my feelings. So i think we were saying the same thing.

How about if someone raped your loved ones?

Is there anything inherently wrong about someone raping a loved one? I don't think there is any universal good or bad (ie inherently wrong) about objects or actions. Of course I'd be fucking pissed. Of course I'd seek vengeance. But I wouldn't conclude some universal truth about the action. Obviously, the guy doing the raping benefited greatly and prob feels good about it, while I feel bad.
 
However, what happens if a Genghis Khan is born within your area? Highly intelligent leader, who manages to summon the will of many within the society. Not only that, is also extremely savage, ruthless, greedy, and holds absolutely no mercy while he burns your anarchist society to the ground.

How would an anarchist society stop that from happening?

How did regular society stop that from happening? Oh wait, they didn't.

"Rape is wrong."

"Oh yeah, well what if Genghis Khan wants to rape you?"

"Um, it would still be wrong?


But this is where the whole argument of anarchism gets flawed. Us homosapiens are mammals, who are part of the animal kingdom. We might be highly intelligent mammals, but we're still just mammals. We have a pack mentality that's genetically programmed into us, same as virtually all other species of mammals. Herds / packs will form, and from them a leader will emerge, who is responsible for the overall welfare of the entire pack / herd.

Animal groups are relatively small and mostly voluntary associations, which is the way humans used to be.
 
So I won't spend any more time arguing details with you. Instead the efforts are better invested in making money to realize my (utopian?) idea of an anarchistic place.

Definitely the way to go. I wish more anarchist would quit whining about everyone else keeping them down and start doing something about it to prove us wrong. Any successful system will have to deal with dumb asses, sheep, cattle, followers, lazy asses, cowards, etc, etc. So if anarchy can't work through those problems it's not even worth talking about.

If you succeed you'll be hailed as a visionary.
 
Of course I'd be fucking pissed. Of course I'd seek vengeance.
Why? There is no right or wrong. What would compel you to act?

I agree with you somewhat on morality being subjective, but I wouldn't go as far as you do, to imply that there is no value positive or negative in morality.

By denying that humans have purposeful values, and different values have different consequences attached to them, you're basically saying all human action is random and arbitrary.
 
Why? There is no right or wrong. What would compel you to act?

What would compel me to act? Emotion. Emotion is what drives most action. I don't go through a philosophical debate in my head about whether something is universally right or wrong. I just feel a certain way, weight the consequences, and decide to act or not. I don't need to ask myself if the raper was inherently right or wrong in his actions.

I agree with you somewhat on morality being subjective, but I wouldn't go as far as you do, to imply that there is no value positive or negative in morality.

There is only relative value in morality. And that value is only something perceived in our minds. A moral position sometimes suits some people and sometimes does not. There's nothing universal about it, especially if you're talking about some positive or negative value separate from our minds.

By denying that humans have purposeful values, and different values have different consequences attached to them, you're basically saying all human action is random and arbitrary.

I'm saying purpose is relative/subjective, and it only exists in our minds. I don't deny that people have subjective purposeful values. But purpose is relative, opinionated, and is not universal. I do deny universal purposeful values for humans. Energy forms have no purpose or right/wrong value. Morality would not exist without the human mind.

Different values do have different consequences associated with them. But any positive/negative values of consequences are also completely subjective.

I'm not really saying all human action is random. I'm saying it's mostly emotion based. The bit that's not immediately emotion based is based on laws and philosophies that were created by emotion in the past. Moral systems are all emotion based. Most of what people consider rational decisions is definitely still emotion based. Bad logic can always be used incorrectly to justify any action which was truly based in emotion.
 
What would compel me to act? Emotion. Emotion is what drives most action. I don't go through a philosophical debate in my head about whether something is universally right or wrong. I just feel a certain way, weight the consequences, and decide to act or not. I don't need to ask myself if the raper was inherently right or wrong in his actions.
So you're saying that reason doesn't exist, and all of your actions are driven exclusively by emotion?

There is only relative value in morality. And that value is only something perceived in our minds. A moral position sometimes suits some people and sometimes does not. There's nothing universal about it, especially if you're talking about some positive or negative value separate from our minds.
Universal morals are morals applied consistently to everyone.

What you're talking about is relativism.

I'm not really saying all human action is random. I'm saying it's mostly emotion based. The bit that's not immediately emotion based is based on laws and philosophies that were created by emotion in the past. Moral systems are all emotion based. Most of what people consider rational decisions is definitely still emotion based. Bad logic can always be used incorrectly to justify any action which was truly based in emotion.
I've got a real problem with this, because right now, you're trying to reason with me, and yet you're denying that reason motivates human action.

If you don't believe behavior is arbitrary and random, then there must be some manner of order to it.
 
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Hf-B9Tqkss]Fuck you, I won't do what you tell me - Rage Against The Machine - YouTube[/ame]