Social Media and Privacy

r3p1v

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Nov 17, 2006
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This is getting crazy imo

Wonga, Lenddo, Lendup: Big data and social-networking banking. - Slate Magazine

a new generation of companies is beginning to deploy algorithms that sieve through these data to separate trustworthy borrowers from those likely to default and to price their loans accordingly.

Some—like the Hong Kong-based Lenddo, which currently operates in the Philippines and Colombia—do so by scrutinizing the applicants' connections on Facebook and Twitter. The key to getting a successful loan from Lenddo is having a handful of highly trusted individuals in your social networks. If they vouch for you and you get the loan, your select friends will also be notified of your successes in repaying the loan. (In the past, Lenddo even threatened to notify them—exerting maximum peer pressure—if you had problems repaying the loan.)

The goal, then, is to get as many data as possible, perhaps even nudging potential applicants to pre-emptively disclose as much information about themselves as possible. In yet another puzzling paradox of the modern age, the rich people are spending money on expensive services that protect their privacy and improve their standing in Google's search results, while the poor people have little choice but to surrender their privacy in the name of social mobility.

Also saw news the other day where Facebook were asking normal people to provide ID verification.

I think before long, everybody will have access to your social data or require access to make lending, insurance, employment, etc... decisions.

It's insane. I only have one social media account that is tied to my real name and it has very little information on it. Probably won't ever have more than that.

Thoughts?
 


1) Facebook and other social accounts with high trustworthy friends for sale
2) Cash and Carry
 
If someone is loaning you money, or you're in a position where you are asking for a job or credit, why shouldn't someone be able to scrutinize you?

You've got to look at it from the other side. If you're a lender, and this information can help you make better choices, and it's publicly available, you're going to be at a huge competitive disadvantage to another firm that uses it.

I used to be all about privacy until a year or so ago, but I see it very differently now. Trust and transparency are the future, and it's going to come at the cost of privacy.
 
IMO it's all very borderline.

In the next couple of years I'll be settling down and having kids, should I choose to jump ship and work for someone else, why should my weekend antics have any bearing on a job that I apply for ?

I mean because I've got some slooooot flashing her crotchless knickers over some extremely drunk bloke on my Facebook, which was taken away from the work place on a holiday I was entitled too - How does that have any bearing on my marketing skills (defined loosely) ?

You could say I've posted it in the public domain, but I've also chosen to restricted it so only the people I'VE allowed to see it.

Disclaimer: Some of this is purely devils advocate
 
If someone is loaning you money, or you're in a position where you are asking for a job or credit, why shouldn't someone be able to scrutinize you?

You've got to look at it from the other side. If you're a lender, and this information can help you make better choices, and it's publicly available, you're going to be at a huge competitive disadvantage to another firm that uses it.

I used to be all about privacy until a year or so ago, but I see it very differently now. Trust and transparency are the future, and it's going to come at the cost of privacy.

I think if someone is dumb enough to allow an insurance company/employer/bank look into their own social data, then it is mostly their fault.

I'm afraid that using this data will become so widespread that it will eventually become required for everybody.

This could lead to people having very curated public social accounts. Essentially just well managed accounts that they don't really use. And then private social networks that aren't attached to their name where they say and post whatever they want.
 
I'm afraid that using this data will become so widespread that it will eventually become required for everybody.
But again, if you want something from someone else, or for someone else to engage in a relationship with you, contractual or otherwise, then why is it a problem to have to reveal this?

Economics tell us, the firms that get the most value with the least amount of information will get more of the clients who value privacy. So there are incentives in this to keep information gathering under control.

But that presumes economic incentives are at play. In industries protected and heavily regulated by the government, they have no reason to conform to economic incentives because competition is already limited by the state. There is no pressure to play nice with clients.

This could lead to people having very curated public social accounts. Essentially just well managed accounts that they don't really use. And then private social networks that aren't attached to their name where they say and post whatever they want.
We'll have privacy without trust, and transparency with trust.

Depending on whether you need trust for a relationship or transaction will dictate which sort of people/personas you end up dealing with.
 
So there are incentives in this to keep information gathering under control.

I'm not sure there are enough people that value privacy or are intelligent enough to know that data being created by themselves are being used against them.

If the use of social data becomes so widespread that it's keeping a lot of people from getting a job, getting a credit card, student loans, etc... then that will probably change. I can pretty much guarantee that some laws will be passed barring companies from using the data or there will be a lot of people moving from public social networks to private social networks.
 
But again, if you want something from someone else, or for someone else to engage in a relationship with you, contractual or otherwise, then why is it a problem to have to reveal this?

Economics tell us, the firms that get the most value with the least amount of information will get more of the clients who value privacy. So there are incentives in this to keep information gathering under control.

But that presumes economic incentives are at play. In industries protected and heavily regulated by the government, they have no reason to conform to economic incentives because competition is already limited by the state. There is no pressure to play nice with clients.

Out of interest, do you believe monopolies would exist in an anarchic society? I'm guessing you think governments create monopolies?
 
I'm not sure there are enough people that value privacy or are intelligent enough to know that data being created by themselves are being used against them.
Niche market.

If the use of social data becomes so widespread that it's keeping a lot of people from getting a job, getting a credit card, student loans, etc... then that will probably change.
For the worse.

I can pretty much guarantee that some laws will be passed barring companies from using the data or there will be a lot of people moving from public social networks to private social networks.
All that will do is raise costs. "Consumers" don't understand that any burdens placed on business, ultimately are paid for by the consumer.

Out of interest, do you believe monopolies would exist in an anarchic society? I'm guessing you think governments create monopolies?
Depends what definition you use of a monopoly. If you mean the traditional definition, it was government created. If you mean the current definition (any hyper-successful business) then that's quite different.

The real question isn't whether or not there are monopolies (hyper successful firms) but rather, how did they become successful. If it was by serving people with better products, at better prices and being more innovative, and having better strategy, then I would question why anyone has a problem with that.

If on the other hand, businesses pay government through lobbyists and campaign finance to limit competition through regulation, to award sweetheart deals, and to not apply the laws equally, then that seems to me to be quite problematic.
 
So people acting in their best interest to save money, get a job, or get credit is bad?
The question is, are people entitled to this?

And if they are, does that mean you and I have an obligation to give them jobs, loan them money etc?

Those may or may not be good for society at large, and individuals in particular, but you're indicating that people have a right to them, and such positive rights can only be obligations upon others.

And I don't agree with some people being obligated to others regardless of merit or circumstance.
 
The question is, are people entitled to this? .... but you're indicating that people have a right to them, and such positive rights can only be obligations upon others.

No, I don't believe that and idk how you thought I indicated that.

I think people should have a right to their own social data and who can access it.

If things continue as they are, there could be secret algorithms used by insurance companies and banks that read your social posts and make judgements based on things like your grammar, your music tastes, political views, social connections or basically anything. That's ridiculous.

How is it bad if people choose not to allow this and move to private networks?
 
No, I don't believe that and idk how you thought I indicated that.
My mistake. You mentioned legal action and I assumed you were for that.

I think people should have a right to their own social data and who can access it.
People can't own information or exercise control over it beyond keeping it private.

If I find out something about you (your height or hair color) you have no ability, or in my opinion, "right", to make me forget it, or not act upon it.

If things continue as they are, there could be secret algorithms used by insurance companies and banks that read your social posts and make judgements based on things like your grammar, your music tastes, political views, social connections or basically anything. That's ridiculous.
Why is it ridiculous?

How is it bad if people choose not to allow this and move to private networks?
It's not. But do you really want to insure a guy whose only information is that refers to himself as Guerilla and has a presence on a few forums online?
 
To see this development in a positive light is to ignore the fact that extension of credit is not - as conventional wisdom would have you believe - solely about your ability to pay. Rather in the best of cases it is based on a balance between potential profits on interest as well as minimizing the risk of default. But If we have learned anything in the last 6 years it is that lenders have increasingly shifted the balance towards profits over the elimination of risk. The proof is in lenders actions. Creditors now consider late fees in their profit models. Mortgage companies made millions of loans to people who were not worthy of a carrying a loan based on their credit and there income. The risks were shifted to other sectors of the economy or to the public sector. In many cases the risks were simply ignored, for short profit gain with little regard for the sustainability of the companies themselves.

Do people really have a hard time getting credit in the U.S.? They may have a hard time getting good terms, but predatory lending is still the norm. The article mentions college students. This is a perfect example. This is a demographic group who's members are often unemployed or working low paying jobs, have little or no established credit history, and a high statistical risk of default. Yet your typical college student is inundated with offers for credit. High interest credit, but credit nonetheless.
Although, a personal anecdote does not constitute a trend, I will still offer a little personal experience anyway. I'm a big fan of same as cash deals. The ones where if you pay the balance off within some time period, you pay zero interest. However, I have never failed to pay off the balance prior to the interest coming due. In essence I have used them a free personal loans. I keep the money in my bank earning interest, the store gives me the product and loses out on the benefit of having all the money for the product they sold me and earning the interest themselves. Of course they offer these plans because statistically most people will fail to pay off the balance in time and end of paying the interest. Despite the fact that I have kept excellent credit and have always held a good stable job throughout my adult life, I have been turned down a number of times for these kinds of deals. If credit worthiness or income were the issue, I would have no trouble getting the loan. This is despite the fact that I have had no trouble getting preferred financing on secured and unsecured loans from credit unions and banks in the past. On several occasions I actually called to contest the card or loan being turned down. In each case I was told the same thing. My credit history indicated an established history of paying off loans on time or early, as if that was a negative thing! I was told that It would not be profitable for the company/store to extend me a same as cash deal. This completely flies in the face of conventional wisdom, but does illustrated the reality that the extension of credit is a more complex process then it seems. It makes business sense too if you understand their motivations. Why would a store want to extend a deal to whose purpose is to trap the consumer into paying a high interest payment on some item, when that person has a history of not falling into the trap? They also assume that if I don't get the same as cash loan I will simply pay for the item. Its a risk they take because the real profit is not in selling me an item, but in selling me the credit to buy the item. This is basis for our finacialized economic system. The U.S.'s chief product today is consumer debt, not consumer goods.

This data will not be used to make loans to people that otherwise have little established credit history. They already give these people loans. Rather it will be used to more accurately predict which customers will be most profitable. These high profit individuals are those who carry high balances on multiple revolving accounts, and pay late. The exact opposite of people with good credit. Creditors in collusion with the government have already made it difficult to default and are continuing to do so, so traditional credit worthiness is in essence becoming less important. The future (actually the present too) is permanently indebted customers who pay interest (rents) to creditors indefinitely. This technology will be used to better identify those potential members of new indentured class.

FICA = Federal Insurance Contributions Act (aka) payroll tax.
I know you were referring to FICO, although I disagree with your points. FICO score is a quantitative representation of an intangible. In this case it is the likeliness of an individual to pay back a loan. It is, as you allude to, based on more than repayment history alone and includes things like amount of credit, high balances, etc. These are all things that are found to statistically correlate to a higher likelyhood that you will default on your debt. The score does not represent whether or not you will be a good customer. A good customer is sort of an amorphous concept. Yes, it may include how likely you are to pay your debts, but it includes the other things you discuss like how likely you are to add to the profitability of a business. It also may represent how much assistance you require from staff, are you difficult, are you loyal, etc. The problem with "customer-worthiness" and the reason we have quantitative measures like FICO is peoples definition of "customer-worthiness" can be extremely biased. Race and gender, for example have historically been used as a factor in judging "customer-worthiness" and still is in many cases; just not openly. Unfortunately people receive a different quality of customer service based on appearance and socioeconomic background all the time. One intended benefit of numerical scoring like FICO is that it is based on standard metrics that are supposed to be divorced from bias. FICO is a metric used across the industry in and of itself. This is superior to having to rely solely on the good or bad will of some loan officer. The good old day of a gentleman handshake sealing the deal were mostly good days so long as you were a white male. Of course lenders are not forced into using solely FICO scores or FICO scores at all. And you are right in that they, and credit reports in general, have begun to define people. I think that this is an awful trend. Its one of the many aspects of modern life the makes me want to move to the wildness and live like Grizzly Adams. I don't want to be defined by a number. Not my my FICO score, and not by Klout score either. FICO ignores circumstances, bad luck, or identity fraud (although its effects can be contested). It is far too inelastic as well. A college kid living off of ramen noodles may have a completely completely different real credit-worthiness when they graduate and get a good paying job (assuming they can). It will take a while however for their score to catch up. Divorced women who have not worked outside the home ever, or in many years are in an even worse situation. Just checking if anybody actually reads this shit which I copied from two comments on the site. They may have a good job, but zero credit history. Their score is not necessarily an accurate reflection of their default risk. These situations perhaps are where it is a good thing if a loan officer has some flexibility. Its not a black and white issue. FICO scores are good and bad.

However all of this misses the point of my original post. I think the evidence has shown - and I'm talking about the national state of affairs, not solely my personal anecdote - that in the eyes of today's lenders, bad credit and a higher likely hood to pay higher rates and rack up penalties and late fees are actually desirable qualities from a profit standpoint. Higher risk customers represent higher profits. It doesn't matter if this creates systemic risk because: A. lenders are working to make default harder or impossible, and B. because the government has shown a willingness to turn a blind eye and bail these industries out when the systemic risk turns to systemic collapse. I submit that the technology discussed in the article will not simply be used to provide an under-served population an alternative metric for determining credit worthiness. Lets get real. This technology will be used the same way all aggregated personal data is used. That is, it will be used to target customers in any way that maximizes profit for those industries, with little regard for the negative externalities it creates.
 
My mistake. You mentioned legal action and I assumed you were for that.

Well I'd probably be for barring some companies from using the data, but I don't think that makes my view = to entitlement. I think there should be reasonable restrictions, but that is way far from telling them they have to hire/loan and to who. They are already barred from using certain data due to discrimination.

It's ridiculous because it's mostly private data that has little to do with their ability to pay. It's like a bank/employer requesting to put a microphone in your house and for you to wear a camera on your head all the time so they can watch you.

also lol zsaleem
 
I think we both know that companies are not going to be able to do this (for banking or employment) on a large scale in the US.

I bet the government will step in and regulate it before it gets very big or people catch on and start watching the info they post or move to private networks.

The FBI, CIA, and police already heavily use the data, so I'm sure they wouldn't want everybody leaving either.
 
Well I'd probably be for barring some companies from using the data, but I don't think that makes my view = to entitlement.
Well, you think someone is entitled not to have their data used.

Also, you're willing to use prior restraint backed by violence to keep them from doing so. It's my personal bias, but I don't believe in using violence against peaceful people.

I think there should be reasonable restrictions, but that is way far from telling them they have to hire/loan and to who.
The USG already tells private citizens they have to loan and to who.

They are already barred from using certain data due to discrimination.
Right, which is nonsense, immoral and increases prices.

It's ridiculous because it's mostly private data that has little to do with their ability to pay.
Well, obviously these companies think this data provides correlative information. Do you think they are using it because they want to disqualify good clients for having goofy online friends or attitudes?

It's like a bank/employer requesting to put a microphone in your house and for you to wear a camera on your head all the time so they can watch you.
Why would any business want to do this if it didn't make them money?