EXPELLED -How Schools Are Hiding Real Science.

Status
Not open for further replies.
Deliguy, so your main point is that scientists can be wrong, and that is exactly one of the points that emp was trying to make.



However, the argument that scientists have been wrong about some things, so therefore they are wrong about evolution just isn't logical. Evolution has been verified in several different ways, including fossil records and dna, it has even been observed:
iTWire - Evolutionary trajectory of complex traits observed



Hey, I'll agree with you on that one :)!

Actually that was my point :) You can't talk evolution and the start of life without talking quantum physics and astronomy. Evolution is based on our current understanding of it and how the universe and life started. You can't say we came from a complex amino acid without asking where that amino acid came from or that we came from a big bang without asking where the big bang came from. With our current understanding all we can do is take educated guesses. However physists know our entire understanding is wrong we're just trying to move closer to a better understanding which will probably never happen. As far as how we stand in our universe and in our time frame of human existence trying to understand it all is like taking one square inch of the ocean and looking at it in less time than it takes to blink then using that trying to figure out everything there is to know about the rest of the ocean. What else exists out there? Where did it come from? How old is it? How does it work? It's just unrealistic to answer it to any degree of confidence. So to say our current understanding of evolution is scientific fact is bubkis.

+rep to anyone who can find an old article for me. I wish I still had it bookmarked. It's a fantastic read. It's a ficticious story about an athiest who meets god on a train and asks him a bunch of questions about how the universe got started and about evolution and stuff. It gives an awesome spin on the whole religion vs darwinism argument. It was called something like God wears pants or some shit.
 


Jammm, why then are new species going extinct every few years? If creatures evolved, they should adapt to changes in their environment no?

No. It's called survival of the fittest. If they die out the surroundings probably changed very quickly and they were not fit enough to survive.

Also, there is no evidence of evolution from simpler forms. Birds supposedly came from reptiles but there have been no half-bird/half-reptile fossils found. You guys are here screaming for evidence when in fact, you have very little yourself, and the founder of Evolution was shown to be wrong on numerous occassions.

I'm not sure about fossils. But that's not all you need. The same short type DNA sequences have been found in both dinosaurs and birds. This in itself is not an empirical evidence but it supports the theory.

Also, if you don't mind, could you share how life begun, or at least how you think it did?

No one knows this obviously. The closest thing we have is that amino acids (they makes up proteins) have been created in a controlled enviroment from nothing but chemical elements. Of course this is no empirical evidence either but it does show that organic compounds can create themselves.
 
"Scientific Theory"

Did anyone ever tell you anything else? Did you really think people look at the theory of evolution and think: "wow.. this is the ultimate fact of life and can't be changed". If so, you have missed the point.
 
It's just unrealistic to answer it to any degree of confidence. So to say our current understanding of evolution is scientific fact is bubkis.

If you think HAVING all the answers is the only thing that qualifies as science, then you have pretty unique way of defining the word "science".

Again.. evolution is a scientific fact and a theory. Not just a fact.
 
nevermind found the article

Ragged Trousered Philosopher

Awesome story you all should read it. It's of course just for entertainment and a humorous way of looking at the debate, but it brings up a great point of there's an obvious explanation for it all. We're missing it, but it's worth considering that one might be out there. If we blind ourselves to the strict beliefs we have now and close our minds to any other possibilities, we may miss it.

If you think HAVING all the answers is the only thing that qualifies as science, then you have pretty unique way of defining the word "science".

Again.. evolution is a scientific fact and a theory. Not just a fact.

Again science is not facts its discoveries and theories. It's collecting facts and data to gain knowledge. People who take every scientific theory and call it facts are no different than people who take every word of the bible as historical facts. I'm saying the ignorance lies on both sides of the fence.
 
Again science is not facts its discoveries and theories. It's collecting facts and data to gain knowledge. People who take every scientific theory and call it facts are no different than people who take every word of the bible as historical facts. I'm saying the ignorance lies on both sides of the fence.

Yes, it's about collecting facts to gain knowledge. To gain knowledge about a fact you need a theory and you need to test that theory.

And yea.. if anyone call a theory a fact he or she is a retard. But i don't think i have heard a serious scientist ever call a theory a fact. Just 14 year old boys who have a limited understanding of science.
 
Again science is not facts its discoveries and theories. It's collecting facts and data to gain knowledge. People who take every scientific theory and call it facts are no different than people who take every word of the bible as historical facts. I'm saying the ignorance lies on both sides of the fence.


Eli- I agree with what you say as a description for the study of evolution as it's based on a huge mound of evidence supporting theories. It's as close to fact as we can get. I don't think anyone is going to say anything is 100%. However, you make the plea that we have to keep an open mind with other ideas of thinking. Fine. Please show me the scientific evidence that supports ID and I will reevaluate it with an open mind. (This is towards Eli. I will read what he puts in front of me. Not the cockomamy crap that has been floating through the rest of this thread)
 
No one knows this obviously. The closest thing we have is that amino acids (they makes up proteins) have been created in a controlled enviroment from nothing but chemical elements. Of course this is no empirical evidence either but it does show that organic compounds can create themselves.[/quote]

Pat, first off thanks for the professional tone in the discussion, no need to tear each other's head over this stuff, after all we are here as marketers, this is just us sharing a bunch of different opinions.

To address the Amino Acids, yes, it is true that they were proven to appear from nothing but they have never been proven to bind together to create the complex sequences that would form life. The simplest cells are made up of millions of amino acids and these have not proven capable to bind into a sequence together by chance.
 
I really don't to get involved, but I feel Patj needs more support.
Here's what I going to say:
Rusky: You are more closed minded than any scientist. The job science is challenge commonly believed 'facts' and find the truth. Religion has another motive: to prove that it is correct; it does this with a kind of pseudo science it basically adds stuff on to a theory which is cleary wrong to make it seem more correct. Serious Christains, I'm afraid just can't admit they are wrong. I'm all for debate, if it creates change, this is what real scientists have been doing since the beginning of the earth (which BTW was 4.55 billion years ago, not the 20, 000 years that some people try to pull). Creationists have just rebranded themselves as 'people that believe in Intelligent Design'. This constant ad hoc approach to scientific theory is completely wrong which is why scientists don't listen to creationists. Rusky, if you believe in creationism just because of some shitty conspiracy story video then you need to seriously reconsider your viewpoint

glad i got that off my chest :)
 
Eli- I agree with what you say as a description for the study of evolution as it's based on a huge mound of evidence supporting theories. It's as close to fact as we can get. I don't think anyone is going to say anything is 100%. However, you make the plea that we have to keep an open mind with other ideas of thinking. Fine. Please show me the scientific evidence that supports ID and I will reevaluate it with an open mind. (This is towards Eli. I will read what he puts in front of me. Not the cockomamy crap that has been floating through the rest of this thread)

"evolution as it's based on a huge mound of evidence supporting theories. It's as close to fact as we can get."

I just broke darwins theory down with basic genetics. You truly are a product of our school systems. Its wrong at the core. Genetics 101 learn it. I'm just talking about Genetics cause I love it so much. Dont make me bring up the evolution of organs and how one cant function without the other.
You're a funny guy or girl. Closest to fact.

Guy above from London. How can you call me closed minded. When I'm the one stepping away from what was sold to me in schools. Most of you on the other hand, rolled over like a rug and wont consider anything else. Religion aside. You make it sound like there is only two choices.

I was going to end my arguments, now this tread made me a senior member. LOL.
 
"evolution as it's based on a huge mound of evidence supporting theories. It's as close to fact as we can get."

I just broke darwins theory down with basic genetics. You truly are a product of our school systems. Its wrong at the core. Genetics 101 learn it. I'm just talking about Genetics cause I love it so much. Dont make me bring up the evolution of organs and how one cant function without the other.
You're a funny guy or girl. Closest to fact.

Guy above from London. How can you call me closed minded. When I'm the one stepping away from what was sold to me in schools. Most of you on the other hand, rolled over like a rug and wont consider anything else. Religion aside. You make it sound like there is only two choices.

I was going to end my arguments, now this tread made me a senior member. LOL.

I still think you have a fundamental misunderstanding of what the difference between theory and fact are. You have not proven that evolution is wrong at the core, you haven't proven anything actually.

Evolution is mealy a theory, nothing more. Saying that it is wrong at the core because one of the theories is not completed displays your total lack of understanding of the scientific process.

Also, just because you "stepped away from what you were taught in school" does not make you open minded. If anything you stepped from one closed minded world to the next.
 
"evolution as it's based on a huge mound of evidence supporting theories. It's as close to fact as we can get."

I just broke darwins theory down with basic genetics. You truly are a product of our school systems. Its wrong at the core. Genetics 101 learn it. I'm just talking about Genetics cause I love it so much. Dont make me bring up the evolution of organs and how one cant function without the other.
You're a funny guy or girl. Closest to fact.

Guy above from London. How can you call me closed minded. When I'm the one stepping away from what was sold to me in schools. Most of you on the other hand, rolled over like a rug and wont consider anything else. Religion aside. You make it sound like there is only two choices.

I was going to end my arguments, now this tread made me a senior member. LOL.

For someone who love genetics so much you sure don't know anything about it.

All you have done is produced staw man arguments. Nothing you have said can be backed up by evidence. That's an awesome way to argue...uuuh.
 
Pat, first off thanks for the professional tone in the discussion, no need to tear each other's head over this stuff, after all we are here as marketers, this is just us sharing a bunch of different opinions.

To address the Amino Acids, yes, it is true that they were proven to appear from nothing but they have never been proven to bind together to create the complex sequences that would form life. The simplest cells are made up of millions of amino acids and these have not proven capable to bind into a sequence together by chance.

Nope. But i'm confident (not convinced) that it's just a matter of time like it usually is. Scientists are taking small steps every day. More and more pieces are falling into place and creationists are getting more and more frustrated that their arguments are getting disproved over and over. Even if the theory of evolution would be completely disproved, scientists would still look for a natural explanation. Even if if could be proved that a god who created the universe there would still be a natural explanation how it was done, and scientists would create theories for that as well.
 
"Also, just because you "stepped away from what you were taught in school" does not make you open minded. If anything you stepped from one closed minded world to the next.'
I'm Glad you said the other world is also close minded. Good you're learning.

As for my genetics argument. Pat J - I thought we were cool. New DNA traits were never created even in labs. The only thing our current level of understanding genetics show us, is that in order to make new DNA code - you need already existing DNA code. (can you get that through your skull or go check this out before you speak) Even with hybridization or mutation in DNA - no new traits were ever discovered. (go prove me wrong on this)

As for my organs argument.
Heres a quote from Dr Walt Browns book.
So In the beginning
"All species appear fully developed, not partially developed. They show design. There are no examples of half-developed feathers, eyes, skin, tubes (arteries, veins, intestines, etc.), or any of thousands of other vital organs. Tubes that are not 100% complete are a liability; so are partially developed organs and some body parts. For example, if a leg of a reptile were to evolve into a wing of a bird, it would become a bad leg long before it became a good wing."
 
Nope. But i'm confident (not convinced) that it's just a matter of time like it usually is. Scientists are taking small steps every day. More and more pieces are falling into place and creationists are getting more and more frustrated that their arguments are getting disproved over and over. Even if the theory of evolution would be completely disproved, scientists would still look for a natural explanation. Even if if could be proved that a god who created the universe there would still be a natural explanation how it was done, and scientists would create theories for that as well.

Why does it have to be the natural way of this worlds understanding.

How about different dimensions. Were the laws of our world physics dont apply. You should check out string theory.
This is off topic but pretty interesting stuff. - String theory - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Buts thats getting into the Atomic level. Very small but a universe in it self. Lets just stick to simple cell.
 
As for my genetics argument. Pat J - I thought we were cool. New DNA traits were never created even in labs. The only thing our current level of understanding genetics show us, is that in order to make new DNA code - you need already existing DNA code. (can you get that through your skull or go check this out before you speak) Even with hybridization or mutation in DNA - no new traits were ever discovered. (go prove me wrong on this)

Why don't you provide some links to what you state as fact and prove yourself right? You are, after all, trying to convince us. Not the other way around.
 
I usually stay in "lurker mode" in these kinds of threads. It's interesting to read, but I know that to spit my 2 cents in is like talking to a wall. Anyways, every once again I get provoked enough so that I just can't help myself.

First off, as said many times before. Theory of evolution says nothing about how life began. Nada, zip, njet. It is a theory of how life evolved (wow, who would have thought) after it began. NOT how anything came to life in the first place. Pasteur is biogenesis, not evolution. Say it with me, two different fields!
Sure, one can discuss abiogenesis, which is a relatively immature field, but do not mix it into a thread about evolution. Darwin has given his views in other fields than evolution, that does not make it a part of the theory of evolution. One would think that distinction is pretty simple to make, even though the fields are related.

Secondly, do NOT mix ID and the theory of evolution. Theory of evolution is science, thus the name theory. ID is philosophy or religion, take a pick. Saying a creator made it all can neither be proven nor falsified. In order for something to be a theory, there has to be way to falsify it. Most theories can never be proven (none, depending on how far you stretch it and philosophical you want to get, but that is again another debate). They can only be strengthened, weakened or falsified which means you have to throw them out the window. ID does not live up to this criteria, the theory of evolution does.

And just to have it covered. Hitler has nothing to do with anything, it's like bringing in the Spanish inquisition (see youtube).

I guess the last bit is even more futile, but lets take Rusky's post about DNA.

6-Because they are accidents in the genetic code, almost all mutations are harmful. Even if a good mutation does occur for every good one there would be hundreds of harmful ones with the net effect over time being harmful, if not lethal, to the species as a whole.
The fact that most mutations are harmful, does not exclude mutations that improve the individual. The net effect is not harmful, the offsprings with harmful mutations die, thus not spreading their mutation. The offsprings with mutations that make them more fit for survival, survive and spread their genes. I leave it as an excercise to calculate the net effect.

7-Evolutionists hope that with enough time and with enough mutations new genes for entirely new traits will be produced leading to the evolution of new biological kinds. There is no evidence that this can happen from accidental changes in the sequence of the genetic code, anymore than it's possible to change a romance novel into a book on chemistry by accidental changes in the sequence of the letters.
This also addresses Rusky's last post.
Let's take a mind experiment and just imagine how evolution of the eye would come into place. There are lots of places on this earth without light, where living creatures have neither eyes nor color, because it would just be a waste of energy. Let's say we put some of these creatures in a habitat with light, where they would be able to survive.
After a few thousand/millions/who knows years, a mutation appears, with cells that are light sensitive. Some of these creatures can suddenly tell night from day, maybe there are more predators at night. These creatures surive and multiply, light sensitive cells becomes a relevant factor. This goes on for long periods of time. If you compare the timespan to how long human civilization has existed, it's like comparing the moon to a grain of sand. You can observe these kinds of changes on a small scale (butterfly colors etc.) - major changes are just small changes over a long timespan. That's all there is to it.

I see there are a lot of other questions. But they kick in all directions, attacking everything from grammar to my uncles skills in Alex Kidd, to not really having a point at all. I'm not an English major, it's not even my first language. But I do know the difference between science, religion and philosophy. Please don't confuse them, it's almost painfull to read.

There are lots of areas and facts about evolution which can be disputed, and they are on a regular basis in the scientific community. As mentioned before, scientists are competitive. They love to put eachother down, sometimes I believe even more so than creationists do. But they usually do it in a scientific matter, disputing scientific facts. Not rambling on about soups and bullshit straw arguments.
 
I did. This is the forth page of this thread.

Go back and check it out if you'd like. Heck some of the links given to me to disprove this, concurred with what I said.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.