want proof of how FuckedUP Health care in the US is?



fvaldes said:
Profit making has to be taken out of the equation when providing care to a sick human being.
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Profit making is why American hospitals are better than Soviet and Chinese hospitals.

They are why private hospitals are better than the VA.

Why not take profit out of food? How many nice restaurants will there be then? Why not take profit out of clothing? Energy? Housing? Transportation? Education?

Oh wait, that is full blown socialism.

You want to see a bad healthcare system, look at the state run not for profit system in the UK. When you are old, they just decide not to fix you because it is not worth it. For anything serious, you have to go on waiting lists.

Sure, make checkups and minor injuries free. The hospitals will be swamped treating free riders, and there will be shortages for major surgery.

In the USSR, the government would tell the hospitals to get more efficient, and lower their mortality rates. So the hospital administrators would wheel the patients in their beds, out into the streets, so they wouldn't count as dying in the hospital. TRUE STORY.

Profit and the market system are why there is prosperity in the west. And now people are fat and happy, they want to throw it away for a system that does not work.

The problems with healthcare is that it is NOT IN A FREE MARKET.

How Government Solved the Health Care Crisis
 
guerilla said:
Profit making is why American hospitals are better than Soviet and Chinese hospitals.

They are why private hospitals are better than the VA.

Why not take profit out of food? How many nice restaurants will there be then? Why not take profit out of clothing? Energy? Housing? Transportation? Education?

Oh wait, that is full blown socialism.

You want to see a bad healthcare system, look at the state run not for profit system in the UK. When you are old, they just decide not to fix you because it is not worth it. For anything serious, you have to go on waiting lists.

Sure, make checkups and minor injuries free. The hospitals will be swamped treating free riders, and there will be shortages for major surgery.

In the USSR, the government would tell the hospitals to get more efficient, and lower their mortality rates. So the hospital administrators would wheel the patients in their beds, out into the streets, so they wouldn't count as dying in the hospital. TRUE STORY.

Profit and the market system are why there is prosperity in the west. And now people are fat and happy, they want to throw it away for a system that does not work.

The problems with healthcare is that it is NOT IN A FREE MARKET.

How Government Solved the Health Care Crisis
Click to expand...


I suggest you watch the videos.

Health Insurance companies are straight up criminals and they will let your mother, father or sister DIE if they have to. There MUST be a better way. Hospitals have ridiculous prices and if you have insurance ther eis a BIG chance you will be dropped if god forbid, you have to use.

Japan, most of Europe have BETTER health care for its citizens. This is a fact. Not because Moore the fatso told me but because I have seen it.
 
guerilla said:
You want to see a bad healthcare system, look at the state run not for profit system in the UK. When you are old, they just decide not to fix you because it is not worth it. For anything serious, you have to go on waiting lists.

Sure, make checkups and minor injuries free. The hospitals will be swamped treating free riders, and there will be shortages for major surgery.

In the USSR, the government would tell the hospitals to get more efficient, and lower their mortality rates. So the hospital administrators would wheel the patients in their beds, out into the streets, so they wouldn't count as dying in the hospital. TRUE STORY.

Profit and the market system are why there is prosperity in the west. And now people are fat and happy, they want to throw it away for a system that does not work.

The problems with healthcare is that it is NOT IN A FREE MARKET.

How Government Solved the Health Care Crisis
Click to expand...

I'm guessing you've never used the NHS? If you urgently need something, you get it. If not, first come, first served.
 
guerilla said:
Profit making is why American hospitals are better than Soviet and Chinese hospitals.

They are why private hospitals are better than the VA.

Why not take profit out of food? How many nice restaurants will there be then? Why not take profit out of clothing? Energy? Housing? Transportation? Education?

Oh wait, that is full blown socialism.

You want to see a bad healthcare system, look at the state run not for profit system in the UK. When you are old, they just decide not to fix you because it is not worth it. For anything serious, you have to go on waiting lists.

Sure, make checkups and minor injuries free. The hospitals will be swamped treating free riders, and there will be shortages for major surgery.

In the USSR, the government would tell the hospitals to get more efficient, and lower their mortality rates. So the hospital administrators would wheel the patients in their beds, out into the streets, so they wouldn't count as dying in the hospital. TRUE STORY.

Profit and the market system are why there is prosperity in the west. And now people are fat and happy, they want to throw it away for a system that does not work.

The problems with healthcare is that it is NOT IN A FREE MARKET.

How Government Solved the Health Care Crisis
Click to expand...


by the way...nobody is throwing away nothing. If you want your private health insurance you can keep it. Please, watch the videos.
 
all this nonsense that government run health care would be a failure it is a fairy tale created by the Health insurance companies... PLEASE watch the videos and you'll understand.

The truth is Health Care WORKS in England, Canada, Japan, and most if Europe... here it doesn't. I am not saying a nationalized system wuld work here though...

I have zero faith in the government in this country. If they create it they will find a way to fuck it up.
 
mattseh said:
I'm guessing you've never used the NHS? If you urgently need something, you get it. If not, first come, first served.
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that is correct. The problem is the media is doing on hell of a job scaring people shitless and the lobbying is heavy and nasty to keep things just as they are.
 
fvaldes said:
by the way...nobody is throwing away nothing. If you want your private health insurance you can keep it. Please, watch the videos.
Click to expand...

Bwahahah. Government "competes" with private insurance like an alligator competes with a chicken. The public healthcare option has a $1000 fine in it for people who pay MORE than the public option, even if it is better care. Yeah that makes a lot of sense, some competition.


How to Fix America's Healthcare Crisis
 
fvaldes:
1) Do you think that health care is a right? If so, why is it?

2) Do you think that the health care system, that you and Moore is referring to, in the US is a result of a free market? If so, why is it?
 
I always hear opponents of socialized health care talk about how awful it is in Canada and the UK and other places, but I never hear people from those places complaining. Anyone from the UK, Canada or France have horror stories to share?

Why is our health care system consistently ranked way down on the list behind other western countries(even some non-western countries)? Are the studies or the way the indexes are constructed flawed or outright rigged?

I don't like the idea of living in a country where some simply cannot get health coverage and others have to fight the providers when they do get sick and end up not having their bills covered. There should at least be a public option. I think overall Michael Moore is a big fat propaganda producing douche, but I'm pretty much with him on health care.

The private sector simply has failed to do what it's supposed to, to provide health care coverage to the public. And I don't think a purely private solution is fixable, since providing good coverage will always be at odds with making a profit.

It's going to happen sooner or later. It's just a matter of how far behind the curve we're going to be on this one.
 
guerilla said:
Profit making is why American hospitals are better than Soviet and Chinese hospitals.

They are why private hospitals are better than the VA.

Why not take profit out of food? How many nice restaurants will there be then? Why not take profit out of clothing? Energy? Housing? Transportation? Education?

Oh wait, that is full blown socialism.

You want to see a bad healthcare system, look at the state run not for profit system in the UK. When you are old, they just decide not to fix you because it is not worth it. For anything serious, you have to go on waiting lists.

Sure, make checkups and minor injuries free. The hospitals will be swamped treating free riders, and there will be shortages for major surgery.

In the USSR, the government would tell the hospitals to get more efficient, and lower their mortality rates. So the hospital administrators would wheel the patients in their beds, out into the streets, so they wouldn't count as dying in the hospital. TRUE STORY.

Profit and the market system are why there is prosperity in the west. And now people are fat and happy, they want to throw it away for a system that does not work.

The problems with healthcare is that it is NOT IN A FREE MARKET.

How Government Solved the Health Care Crisis
Click to expand...

What the fuck are you talking about? Healthcare in the UK is fine. If you need something you get it. When I had appendicitis, guess what, the ambulance came to my house, drove me to the hospital, I had an operation and a week later I was home. Didn't have to worry about paying or insurance or anything, didn't have to worry about my insurance company claiming it was my fault or any shit like that. I'm not saying our system's perfect, but its not bad and its reliable.

People only seem to complain when the NHS decides not to spend £500,000 on prolonging someone's life for a week.
 
knukk said:
fvaldes:
1) Do you think that health care is a right? If so, why is it?

2) Do you think that the health care system, that you and Moore is referring to, in the US is a result of a free market? If so, why is it?
Click to expand...


1:) NO....I think it is not. However. I think ANYBODY that can't pay a reasonable price for it should get care.. good care as anybody else. Nobody should be left to die, or be completely ruined because of a health problem. Why is that happening here and not in other developed countries? It is a disgrace.




2:) It is the results of an unregulated, greedy, and completely out of touch market that has been profiting off the pain and suffering of many. Ther eis nothing wrong with making a buck but when you start to play with people lives a line has to be drawn.
 
LogicFlux said:
I always hear opponents of socialized health care talk about how awful it is in Canada and the UK and other places, but I never hear people from those places complaining. Anyone from the UK, Canada or France have horror stories to share?

Why is our health care system consistently ranked way down on the list behind other western countries(even some non-western countries)? Are the studies or the way the indexes are constructed flawed or outright rigged?

I don't like the idea of living in a country where some simply cannot get health coverage and others have to fight the providers when they do get sick and end up not having their bills covered. There should at least be a public option. I think overall Michael Moore is a big fat propaganda producing douche, but I'm pretty much with him on health care.

The private sector simply has failed to do what it's supposed to, to provide health care coverage to the public. And I don't think a purely private solution is fixable, since providing good coverage will always be at odds with making a profit.

It's going to happen sooner or later. It's just a matter of how far behind the curve we're going to be on this one.
Click to expand...



The answer is simple. It works. Has its problems , of course..nothing is perfect! But their systems are much much more human and efficient than the shameful crap we have to deal with here.....
 
LogicFlux said:
I always hear opponents of socialized health care talk about how awful it is in Canada and the UK and other places, but I never hear people from those places complaining. Anyone from the UK, Canada or France have horror stories to share?
Click to expand...

Check out the Ontario wait times list for surgeries like bypass surgery. 6-8 months on a wait list, whereas my dad had his bypass within 2 days of being told he needed one.

Click Wait Times in your area:
Ontario Wait Times Strategy : Introduction
 
LogicFlux said:
I always hear opponents of socialized health care talk about how awful it is in Canada and the UK and other places, but I never hear people from those places complaining. Anyone from the UK, Canada or France have horror stories to share?
Click to expand...

The Canadian health care system isn't without it's horror stories, but from what I can tell no more than the US system. And yes, sometimes there are waits to see specialists or to get elective surgery, waits in emergency for non life threatening injuries, etc. but I know of no one that has been wheeled out in the curb to die and no one goes without.

The doctors I've seen are good. The emergency and hospital facilities I've been to are good. The care I know others have received has been good. What else do you want?
 
fvaldes, you're going to lose this. Actually, you already have. Someone that lives in Canada is going to step in and tell you about how fucking intelligent our government is that they've set up a pay-for-service healthcare system, where doctors are paid based on the number of patients they see; then the government employs just a few fewer doctors than necessary so that you can't have quality competition.

...if you live in Canada, you'll know its impossible to find a family doctor, and when you do, he'll be pushing you out the door as fast as possible anyway.
 
Trademark said:
Conservative Blog: Socialized Medicine Horror Stories: Ripped from Britian and Canadian Papers : THE CONSERVATIVE POST

Disclaimer: I haven't read any of the articles linked at the link I've provided. Sorry to cut and run.
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I didn't mean can someone find "horror stories" to support their anti-state argument, that can always be done. You can poke holes in any theory, institution, idea, set of ideals, or practice if you do enough research and have enough of a history. I was looking to hear from people from those countries who have dealt with the systems first hand.

And any health care system will have flaws and sometimes fall short. But I'm sure all the "horror stories" that you could find in the UK system could be matched and raised by ones you could find in the US because of people either being unable to get covered or because the of the insurance companies deciding that they didn't want to cover something.

And I really don't see why health care should be less of a right than free speech or other things we consider to be rights. I don't necessarily think it should be free(as in free beer) for everyone, but you should at least be guaranteed to be able to get coverage. This is something that I'm frankly ashamed about as an American.
 
Refrozen said:
fvaldes, you're going to lose this. Actually, you already have. Someone that lives in Canada is going to step in and tell you about how fucking intelligent our government is that they've set up a pay-for-service healthcare system, where doctors are paid based on the number of patients they see; then the government employs just a few fewer doctors than necessary so that you can't have quality competition.

...if you live in Canada, you'll know its impossible to find a family doctor, and when you do, he'll be pushing you out the door as fast as possible anyway.
Click to expand...



i hear you and that sucks.. Stupid decisions are going to be made .. no matter which system is in place. but that is a walk in the park compared to the SHIT that happens in this country day after day.
 
If there is a shortage of horror stories coming from Canada, just wait. Once we go nationalized here in the U.S., all the Canadians that normally cross the border for their health care will start telling new stories of nationalized horror.
 
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