want proof of how FuckedUP Health care in the US is?

[esomark]

Having your fundamental democratic rights written in a form that is well protected and defended is a valuable thing. It holds the government accountable, it might not always seem like it but there is some barrier against abuse.

It also makes it harder to push through significant legislative changes, which is a good thing when (like with healthcare) it has a huge impact.

In the UK we're not even citizens but subjects, beholden to the monarch and her government. Trial by jury has been abolished for certain crimes, you can be incarcerated for up to 90 days without charge ,along with a thousand other erosions of civil liberty.

This is a separate debate, but what the fuck.

Firstly, America's constitution didn't stop Guantánamo Bay. Britain's anti-terrorism laws are weak in comparison.

Secondly, the UK has a massively complicated constitution, and codifying it would take a huge amount of time and resources, over simplify it, and would probably never get finished due to all the debate there would have to be about every little detail.

"In the UK we're not even citizens but subjects, beholden to the monarch and her government" What difference does that make?

"Trial by jury has been abolished for certain crimes" That's because its pointless for every little thing and wastes peoples time. Just because some crimes don't use a jury doesn't mean the trial is worse. Often a judge(who is properly scrutinised and well trained) can make a far better decision than a jury who just want to go home and get on with their lives.

There hasn't been a change to the American constitution for almost a hundred years. Unlike them we're not hidebound by history.

This is just my opinion, you can argue either way

 

[Moxie]

Who says that universal healthcare will make life better for people. Obama, one of his gangsters, you?

Their is not one person that can accurately predict the outcome of such a huge program. Why would this gov program work, when ALL of the rest suck.

Why does the World Health Organization rank 36 nations ahead of the USA?

Where are all of these poor people that don't have healthcare. Anyone that needs medical attention can recieve it for absolutely free. I know many people that don't have insurance that recieve the SAME exact care that I do with the SAME exact doctors.

Obama and his street gang don't give a FUCK about healthcare. Don't let them fool you. This healthcare shit is about power. It's one more way to enslave the people. It's one more way to make the people dependent upon the government.

So you're already paying extra so that the people you know can receive the same care for "free." Does this make them your slaves?

 

[papajohn56]

Over 95% of Prostate Cancer patients in the US Survive.

77% in France Survive.

Less than 60% in the UK survive

Essential cancer treatments and surgeries are refused by UK healthcare each year due to cost to the state. Wtf? This is better than the USA system?

 

[Moxie]

France has the best survival rate for female colon and rectal cancer. Japan is best for colon and rectal survival in males.

Essential cancer treatments and surgeries are refused by UK healthcare each year due to cost to the state.

This article doesn't mention anything that extreme :
BBC NEWS | Health | Many UK cancer deaths 'premature'

 

[hellblazer]

If Obama gets his healthcare nationalization bill passed, two things will happen. One, you won't be able to buy private health insurance. And two, you won't be able to change your current private health insurance plan. All of this is documented and been found in the current legislation being bandied around.

 

[riddarhusetgal]

You know what bothers me about this conversation (and why I just ignored it to go back to making money)?

All the people here talking theories (with an exception of a FEW)

DON'T PAY ONE DIME EACH MONTH FOR THEIR EMPLOYEES HEALTHCARE INSURANCE!!!!

IF you did, you will know that the these costs can break a business and we are at a strategic disadvantage relative our peers say in Europe.

Come back here when you are paying thousands of dollars each month for mediocre health care for your employees.

Just as the gov't invests in scientific research because they know it helps society overall, the gov't should invest in the health of its citizenry.

Americans are getting more stressed out, fatter, taking more pills, not using preventative health care (because of the costs often) the list goes on.

So you so called capitalists going on and on about the gov't this the gov't that when you are shelling out thousands of dollars in healthcare care costs for your employees then you can talk. That money could be used to EMPLOY MORE PEOPLE DURING A RECESSION or invest in training for employees...the list goes on....


---

but don't take my word for it - read up


Competitive Disadvantage - http://www.cfr.org/publication/13325/


The United States spent 16 percent of its GDP in 2007 on health care, higher than any other developed nation. The nonpartisan Congressional Budget Office (CBO) estimates that number will rise to 25 percent by 2025 without changes to federal law (PDF). Employer-funded coverage is the structural mainstay of the U.S. health insurance system. According the U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics, about 71 percent of private employees in the United States had access to employer-sponsored health plans in 2006. A November 2008 Kaiser Foundation report notes that access to employer-sponsored health insurance has been on the decline (PDF) among low-income workers, and health premiums for workers have risen 114 percent in the last decade. Small businesses are less likely than large employers to be able to provide health insurance as a benefit. At 12 percent, health care is the most expensive benefit paid by U.S. employers, according to the U.S. Chamber of Commerce.

 

[LogicFlux]

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qLcc19mt4eA"]YouTube - USSR Anthem[/ame]

 

[guerilla]

Communitarian health care

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XMJw_afakZI&fmt=18"]YouTube - Congresswoman Bachmann - No Health care for the disabled July 27, 2009[/ame]


People should be careful what they ask for. I already said, you can only handle high prices by increasing supply. Any price fixing, will lead to shortages. This is econ 101.

 

[Moxie]

I already said, you can only handle high prices by increasing supply. Any price fixing, will lead to shortages. This is econ 101.

I agree with your overall point, but It's a little more complex than that. More people might go to a store if the price of Xbox games go down, but lowered health care costs aren't going to cause more people to have heart attacks.

During the debates, McCain and Obama both agreed that certain structural changes should be made to lower costs. Some of them were converting more records from paper to electronic and an increase on preventative care.

 

[guerilla]

During the debates, McCain and Obama both agreed that certain structural changes should be made to lower costs. Some of them were converting more records from paper to electronic and an increase on preventative care.

They agreed on superficial shit because it doesn't matter who is in charge, both parties basically pursue the same direction.

They get paid off by special interests. Those special interests, want more regulation, because less competition = more profit.

The structural changes, should be more competition. More doctors, not less. More cures, more medicine and more hospitals.

Watch that video. It's disgusting the attitudes these people have. As I said upthread, the commies would roll the beds into the streets so people wouldn't count as dying in the hospitals, to maintain the statistical illusion that state care was working well.

That is the sort of care the people advising the congress and executive envision as a solution.

 

[subigo]

Here's my opinion: I just want some fucking health insurance for a normal price.

Without going into details, most companies say I'm "uninsurable" and those who do approve me want close to $1,000 a month for basic coverage. That's more than every single bill I have in the world combined. I can't afford that shit. I haven't been to the same doctor more than once in the past 12 years.

Why don't one of you geniuses figure out a fix for people like me? And... go.

 

[guerilla]

Here's my opinion: I just want some fucking health insurance for a normal price.

But what is health insurance? Is it regular visitation? Is it procedures under $5k?

Or is it something rational, like major medical?

Insurance that covers regular, expected medical expenses, is not insurance. It is a pre-pay scheme.

EDIT: I should add, the fact that everyone requires insurance for basic, expected health needs, is proof positive that medical care in the west is a completely captured industry.

 

[LogicFlux]

Here's my opinion: I just want some fucking health insurance for a normal price.

Without going into details, most companies say I'm "uninsurable" and those who do approve me want close to $1,000 a month for basic coverage. That's more than every single bill I have in the world combined. I can't afford that shit. I haven't been to the same doctor more than once in the past 12 years.

Why don't one of you geniuses figure out a fix for people like me? And... go.

It's basically people like you coupled with the people who find out when the time comes that their carrier won't cover their bills, that causes me to be in favor of some sort of government program.
I don't think health care should be free to everyone(free as in free beer, but it should be accessible), but I do think we all should have the "right" to health coverage, and actual health coverage that covers you when the time comes and you need it.
There's probably a way to fix it without completely socializing the system, but I don't really expect that to happen. Someones having a dictator would be a lot easier.

 

[alpal]

In reality we've blown billions on the war on terror.When it comes to tax dollars the people have no say in how it is spent. The money is going to be spent anyway it might as well be spent on free health care than another wall street bail out. Also check out the disparity between how much we spend on our military and how much we spend on our educational system. The media has people sensationalizing an issue that really is not that serious, it's a no brainer. All the politicians that oppose health care reform should have to prove they haven't received money from pharmaceutical lobbyists. There are way more serious issues like global warming, dependence on foreign oil, and getting the heck out of Afghanistan.